Light Aircraft Down, Today At Kemble (Merged)
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Regarding mono's reservations - something long sorted our with civilian professional aviators on PPRuNe.
The site was conceived 10 years ago now with a basic precept - to reflect what we as pilots discuss in a bar and not studied, solo musings over official documents and reports. This thread precisely fits that role.
Such threads have always drawn comment from well respected contributors like mono and, in an exaggerated way, from the mil aviators here.
Here's a straight explanation why we continue to support these threads:
The simple fact is that behaviour only changes with the element of shock - could that have happened to me. The dry discourse months later within reports doesn't do that.
This isn't a magical revelation - it is simply human nature. Smoking, drinking, diet. En masse, none of us changes until something real, something traumatic touches our consciences and survival instinct as frail individuals.
The second reason is simply a result and amplification of the first: the very nature of the thread and it's timing means that often many potential avenues and causes are discussed. Efato, turn back and spin in as an example. Ultimately these are red herrings in the great scheme of things but the greatest value lies there. A few sane and realistic tangents on what might have happened hugely increases the facets of their flying that folks very seriously reflect on.
Thus more people become involved at a visceral, personal level and therein lies the greatest possibility of the maximum number of people to change behaviour, review procedures or rethink how they do things.
One thread like this, especially with 'tasteless' but current pictures, has ten times the immediacy and emotional impact of reading any number of even the best written 'ILAFFT' pieces let alone the formal reports.
These threads maximise the chances of promoting personal, positive change outside the formal training system and that's why they stay.
Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd
The site was conceived 10 years ago now with a basic precept - to reflect what we as pilots discuss in a bar and not studied, solo musings over official documents and reports. This thread precisely fits that role.
Such threads have always drawn comment from well respected contributors like mono and, in an exaggerated way, from the mil aviators here.
Here's a straight explanation why we continue to support these threads:
The simple fact is that behaviour only changes with the element of shock - could that have happened to me. The dry discourse months later within reports doesn't do that.
This isn't a magical revelation - it is simply human nature. Smoking, drinking, diet. En masse, none of us changes until something real, something traumatic touches our consciences and survival instinct as frail individuals.
The second reason is simply a result and amplification of the first: the very nature of the thread and it's timing means that often many potential avenues and causes are discussed. Efato, turn back and spin in as an example. Ultimately these are red herrings in the great scheme of things but the greatest value lies there. A few sane and realistic tangents on what might have happened hugely increases the facets of their flying that folks very seriously reflect on.
Thus more people become involved at a visceral, personal level and therein lies the greatest possibility of the maximum number of people to change behaviour, review procedures or rethink how they do things.
One thread like this, especially with 'tasteless' but current pictures, has ten times the immediacy and emotional impact of reading any number of even the best written 'ILAFFT' pieces let alone the formal reports.
These threads maximise the chances of promoting personal, positive change outside the formal training system and that's why they stay.
Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd
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So that told me....
However, I still vehemently disagree with this as others clearly do. It offended one forum enough for them to lock the thread so at least I can rest assured my views are not solitary or unfounded.
If I ever "go in" can I request the cause of it is witheld until the AAIB result though?!! I'd hate for speculative facts about my demise to make it into a tabloid on the back of a rumour born on these sheets.
However, I still vehemently disagree with this as others clearly do. It offended one forum enough for them to lock the thread so at least I can rest assured my views are not solitary or unfounded.
If I ever "go in" can I request the cause of it is witheld until the AAIB result though?!! I'd hate for speculative facts about my demise to make it into a tabloid on the back of a rumour born on these sheets.
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Not telling you ( as in a taking a poke) at all.
Simple explanation of the rationale regarding our attitude to threads like this. Nobody has to like it, agree with us or even read the thread.
Danny and I have been around aviation for a while. It's thirty years as a pilot for me now and I've simply been to too many funerals.
Let's distance ourselves from something you and some others find objectionable and sidestep the emotions. Of my 30 years flying fifteen of them were also spent skydiving along with other PPRuNers like Javelin. It's a high turnover sport - you're considered reasonably experienced with an hour of freefall under your belt and can achieve skygod status in a couple of years.
Average time in the sport seems to be around 5 years for those who stick at it and here's the rub. Those of us who stay longer, the old salts, see the same accidents repeat themselves in cycles. Someone dies, a technical or training issue is dealt with and folks are much more aware.
A few years down the line the same essential element in the first fatality starts happening again - entire new population on the drop zone who've discounted or forgotten the training as ancient history or, as 'aces' themselves, they and their peers never had a problem.
Same types of investigations, same changes to training but it is the immediate period following the fatality, the first two or three days when the community of skydivers speculate, ruminate and make those private vows to look after themselves. They don't change anything when the report comes out - it's the system and not individuals that react then.
Like the experienced skydivers you (plural) generally are outside the formal training and qualification system now. It's entirely voluntary as to whether or not your skills and operational integrity increase or decline.
I still retain the absolute capability of killing myself and others after all this time and I'll continue to do my best to avoid it. These threads make me think - think very hard whether concerning my professional flying or farm stripping in my shared Jodel.
Danny has gone through the horror of stepping out of a twin turbo prop and the next crew in it dying along with their passengers following an instrument failure. You're welcome to ignore such threads, other forums we both follow and enjoy can lock them but as far as we are concerned in the Towers changing someone's behaviour in the imediate and potent emotional aftermath is our equivalent of carrying a donor card.
Regards to all,
Rob
Simple explanation of the rationale regarding our attitude to threads like this. Nobody has to like it, agree with us or even read the thread.
Danny and I have been around aviation for a while. It's thirty years as a pilot for me now and I've simply been to too many funerals.
Let's distance ourselves from something you and some others find objectionable and sidestep the emotions. Of my 30 years flying fifteen of them were also spent skydiving along with other PPRuNers like Javelin. It's a high turnover sport - you're considered reasonably experienced with an hour of freefall under your belt and can achieve skygod status in a couple of years.
Average time in the sport seems to be around 5 years for those who stick at it and here's the rub. Those of us who stay longer, the old salts, see the same accidents repeat themselves in cycles. Someone dies, a technical or training issue is dealt with and folks are much more aware.
A few years down the line the same essential element in the first fatality starts happening again - entire new population on the drop zone who've discounted or forgotten the training as ancient history or, as 'aces' themselves, they and their peers never had a problem.
Same types of investigations, same changes to training but it is the immediate period following the fatality, the first two or three days when the community of skydivers speculate, ruminate and make those private vows to look after themselves. They don't change anything when the report comes out - it's the system and not individuals that react then.
Like the experienced skydivers you (plural) generally are outside the formal training and qualification system now. It's entirely voluntary as to whether or not your skills and operational integrity increase or decline.
I still retain the absolute capability of killing myself and others after all this time and I'll continue to do my best to avoid it. These threads make me think - think very hard whether concerning my professional flying or farm stripping in my shared Jodel.
Danny has gone through the horror of stepping out of a twin turbo prop and the next crew in it dying along with their passengers following an instrument failure. You're welcome to ignore such threads, other forums we both follow and enjoy can lock them but as far as we are concerned in the Towers changing someone's behaviour in the imediate and potent emotional aftermath is our equivalent of carrying a donor card.
Regards to all,
Rob
Mono
At the time you made your post yesterday, no one had 'speculated' anything... The BBC had reproted an accident, quite responsibly for a change - A couple of others had replied with nothing sinister and had spoken their condolences - I add my own here too...
Whats the big problem?
Nige
At the time you made your post yesterday, no one had 'speculated' anything... The BBC had reproted an accident, quite responsibly for a change - A couple of others had replied with nothing sinister and had spoken their condolences - I add my own here too...
Whats the big problem?
Nige
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I didn't read Mono's post as a tirade against speculation so much as a comment that the continued condolences expressed become somewhat nauseating when you consider that most people have no idea who was in the a/c. I've seen posts where that was all people said and it feels very ...tabloid.
And not trying to pick an argument about skydiving accidents, because basically I agree with your suggestion that knowledge gets lost as the older generation move on, what I have seen though is accidents have evolved along with the equipment.
It used to be that we got a lot of gear malfunctions, but these tended to disappear as the gear got better. Then we got people sizzling in with brain lock, so they invented altitude alerters. Next came CRW wraps, until that branch of the sport got fully developed, then situational awareness problems once people started freestyle.
The current crop of fatalities appear to be seemingly benign collisions resulting from the new faster style of equipment and CFIT deaths from hook turns
That's why the BPA decision to not publish an accident report in its magazine (It's been a long time since I've been active) was perhaps an oversite bordering on negligence.
And not trying to pick an argument about skydiving accidents, because basically I agree with your suggestion that knowledge gets lost as the older generation move on, what I have seen though is accidents have evolved along with the equipment.
It used to be that we got a lot of gear malfunctions, but these tended to disappear as the gear got better. Then we got people sizzling in with brain lock, so they invented altitude alerters. Next came CRW wraps, until that branch of the sport got fully developed, then situational awareness problems once people started freestyle.
The current crop of fatalities appear to be seemingly benign collisions resulting from the new faster style of equipment and CFIT deaths from hook turns
That's why the BPA decision to not publish an accident report in its magazine (It's been a long time since I've been active) was perhaps an oversite bordering on negligence.
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Zlin526: I'm sorry that you interpreted my post that way.
Firstly, I would assure you that my condolences are genuine. I have a family too and any incident like this - especially one so close to home - reminds me of my own mortality and the effect such a thing would have on my nearest and dearest.
My comment was clearly "without prejudice" to the results of any findings and was never stated as a fact. I can't even say with any certainty, that it was an EFATO. It could, perhaps, have been something to do with Flight controls or structural couldn't it?
I specifically mentioned EFATO and a turnback because at this early stage, that was the recollection of one eyewitness who was in proximity to the event and who happens to be a colleague of mine. My comment was, therefore, intended to expand the discussion outside of the immediate event. Specifically, to include what seems to be a recurring issue with EFATO and to promote discussion about the Human Factors which may lead to such an action.
This is not some morbid fascination, but a sincere desire to seek the council of other experienced pilots in this regard. In particular I have a friend who will be conducting a seminar on EFATO for instructor renewals shortly. Anything which could be learned - directly or indirectly - from your constructive input would be very welcome.
Firstly, I would assure you that my condolences are genuine. I have a family too and any incident like this - especially one so close to home - reminds me of my own mortality and the effect such a thing would have on my nearest and dearest.
My comment was clearly "without prejudice" to the results of any findings and was never stated as a fact. I can't even say with any certainty, that it was an EFATO. It could, perhaps, have been something to do with Flight controls or structural couldn't it?
I specifically mentioned EFATO and a turnback because at this early stage, that was the recollection of one eyewitness who was in proximity to the event and who happens to be a colleague of mine. My comment was, therefore, intended to expand the discussion outside of the immediate event. Specifically, to include what seems to be a recurring issue with EFATO and to promote discussion about the Human Factors which may lead to such an action.
This is not some morbid fascination, but a sincere desire to seek the council of other experienced pilots in this regard. In particular I have a friend who will be conducting a seminar on EFATO for instructor renewals shortly. Anything which could be learned - directly or indirectly - from your constructive input would be very welcome.
Gents, I've nothing to do with this accident, but I work with AAIB a great deal.
This sort of developing speculation I know they find VERY unhelpful in their investigations. Do the pros a favour and back out of this discussion.
G
This sort of developing speculation I know they find VERY unhelpful in their investigations. Do the pros a favour and back out of this discussion.
G
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I see there's a more recent thread which is discussing the sort of thing I would like to explore: Why Fly the Centreline?
Anyone who would like to discuss EFATO as a topic in its own right, (as would I), may find that more appropriate to avoid offending the sensibilities of others.
Anyone who would like to discuss EFATO as a topic in its own right, (as would I), may find that more appropriate to avoid offending the sensibilities of others.
but would echo G the E's sentiments
This sort of developing speculation I know they find VERY unhelpful in their investigations. Do the pros a favour and back out of this discussion.
What possible effect does the ramblings on PPRUNE have on an AAIB investigation???
N
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Thanks Pprune Towers.
There but for the grace of God go I ....
We need to be reminded of that, and keep ourselves scared and sharp, and our aeroplanes fit to fly.
Only when I feel confident enough to fly with ME, would I even think of taking up someone else to share the joys of flying.
Right now I need to practice EFATOs!
MG
There but for the grace of God go I ....
We need to be reminded of that, and keep ourselves scared and sharp, and our aeroplanes fit to fly.
Only when I feel confident enough to fly with ME, would I even think of taking up someone else to share the joys of flying.
Right now I need to practice EFATOs!
MG
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I'm with Nige321, what on earth could we say here that will affect an investigation. If you can back up with facts I will gladly keep my mouth shut. PPrune...... rumour network PPfacne..... fact network
(1) People may read it who are subsequently interviewed by AAIB, and thus their witness statements may be modified (from the original recollection) by somebody else's recollection of the event posted here, or by somebody's conjecture about it. This may not be deliberate, but can happen nonetheless.
(2) We really don't know if somebody has screwed up - and if so whom, it has been suggested by several people that this may have happened. Friends and relatives of the deceased may read these posts - that is deeply unhelpful, and can be extremely distressing.
(3) It is not unknown for friends / relatives / etc. to try taking legal action following an accident. This can be encouraged by ill informed people (which I'm afraid includes the majority of the legal profession - I can think of two lawyers I've ever come across well informed about aviation matters) reading speculation on the internet. This involvement of the legal profession in what should be a purely technical investigation can get in the way of evidence gathering, achieving witness statements, etc.
(4) I can think of a known case where public speculation - badly misinformed (I can speak with authority here, I was assisting AAIB with the investigation), on an internet bulletin board caused (a) an individual to resign from his position and later seek psychiatric help, (b) several flying schools lose considerable revenue following unfounded public concerns over the safety of aircraft that they were using.
(5) I have known several investigations where the eventual conclusions were substantially different to what was originally apparent. Strangely however, initial "rumours" stick - not good.
I don't work for AAIB, and have not seen any official statement from them, but that's my private opinion from assisting with (the investigation of) aircraft accidents by them and other agenceis over about a 12 year period.
If anybody has anything to say about the accident, AAIB's phone number is 01252-510300, and I strongly recommend that they phone AAIB and ask to speak to the responsible inspector - not post any information or conjecture in any public forum.
When AAIB have published a report, that in my opinion is the time for public discussion - and I'll join in with everybody else. Like everybody else, I have the deepest sympathy for anybody who knew or was related to the deceased, but those people in my opinion are best served by the rest of us getting out of the way and allowing an unhindered professional investigation.
G
(2) We really don't know if somebody has screwed up - and if so whom, it has been suggested by several people that this may have happened. Friends and relatives of the deceased may read these posts - that is deeply unhelpful, and can be extremely distressing.
(3) It is not unknown for friends / relatives / etc. to try taking legal action following an accident. This can be encouraged by ill informed people (which I'm afraid includes the majority of the legal profession - I can think of two lawyers I've ever come across well informed about aviation matters) reading speculation on the internet. This involvement of the legal profession in what should be a purely technical investigation can get in the way of evidence gathering, achieving witness statements, etc.
(4) I can think of a known case where public speculation - badly misinformed (I can speak with authority here, I was assisting AAIB with the investigation), on an internet bulletin board caused (a) an individual to resign from his position and later seek psychiatric help, (b) several flying schools lose considerable revenue following unfounded public concerns over the safety of aircraft that they were using.
(5) I have known several investigations where the eventual conclusions were substantially different to what was originally apparent. Strangely however, initial "rumours" stick - not good.
I don't work for AAIB, and have not seen any official statement from them, but that's my private opinion from assisting with (the investigation of) aircraft accidents by them and other agenceis over about a 12 year period.
If anybody has anything to say about the accident, AAIB's phone number is 01252-510300, and I strongly recommend that they phone AAIB and ask to speak to the responsible inspector - not post any information or conjecture in any public forum.
When AAIB have published a report, that in my opinion is the time for public discussion - and I'll join in with everybody else. Like everybody else, I have the deepest sympathy for anybody who knew or was related to the deceased, but those people in my opinion are best served by the rest of us getting out of the way and allowing an unhindered professional investigation.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 28th Mar 2005 at 18:35.
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Well said Genghis the Engineer
We may be private pilots and some may have aspirations to take this further. Please can we act more like professionals, Genghis thanks for the sensible words.
If anyone one has a positive comment to make why not invest your next 2 hours flying with an instructor try a fan stop, nail a pfl even bash out on a 150 and try spinning. Do a xcountry not tried before get him to set a divert, go under the hood for 15 minutes, try a PAR. Get an IMC or Night rating.
I'm no bore, but why add rumour to disaster because that is what it is, try adding rumour to engine & airframes or problems you experience at an airfield or flying school. Perhaps a problem with a maintenance facility?
Sorry guys but I think the real pilots look listen and add something constructive!
Scot Jock
If anyone one has a positive comment to make why not invest your next 2 hours flying with an instructor try a fan stop, nail a pfl even bash out on a 150 and try spinning. Do a xcountry not tried before get him to set a divert, go under the hood for 15 minutes, try a PAR. Get an IMC or Night rating.
I'm no bore, but why add rumour to disaster because that is what it is, try adding rumour to engine & airframes or problems you experience at an airfield or flying school. Perhaps a problem with a maintenance facility?
Sorry guys but I think the real pilots look listen and add something constructive!
Scot Jock
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To be honest
I think people should read every post again, nobody has speculated on the actual cause of THIS accident, the tone of this thread has hardly been about WHY it happened, but more along the lines of make sure you are up to speed on your safety drills & procedures.
Take a chill pill chaps & chappettes.
Happy landings
D.
I think people should read every post again, nobody has speculated on the actual cause of THIS accident, the tone of this thread has hardly been about WHY it happened, but more along the lines of make sure you are up to speed on your safety drills & procedures.
Take a chill pill chaps & chappettes.
Happy landings
D.
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People may read this and change their statements???? Why????
I do agree about naming names and wild speculation, but any discussion about possible causes that makes other people think "what would I have done in that situation" has to be a benefit. I also agree that you should not criticise a school unless it is from personal experience. If someone is out of order, that is what moderators are for. When a plane goes in, people in crewrooms will speculate....fact. This is exactly the same. Consider what you post, but if you don't want to read it, you don't have to.....
I do agree about naming names and wild speculation, but any discussion about possible causes that makes other people think "what would I have done in that situation" has to be a benefit. I also agree that you should not criticise a school unless it is from personal experience. If someone is out of order, that is what moderators are for. When a plane goes in, people in crewrooms will speculate....fact. This is exactly the same. Consider what you post, but if you don't want to read it, you don't have to.....
well, my 2p...
As a lowish-mid-time pilot (750 hrs) I've learned a heck of a lot from usenet, pprune etc, including from much more experienced pilots writing about incidents. Of course the truly uninformed speculaton ("well, he must have tried to do xxx and screwed it up by doing yyy") is just a waste of bits and pixels. But the discussion about the SR22 Tahoe crash, for example, was (mostly) very informed and illuminating (and probably stopped me spending $25K on deice for my plane).
Personally I find all the knee-jerk "condolences" a bit fatiguing - I assume that we all stop and have a think and a pause for the dead and the surviving after every incident, and I don't particularly feel the need to tell people or be told. But there again, before anyone else says it, if you don't like it, don't read it.
In fact when I see an incident outside the aviation media, I do look at pprune, usenet, etc to see if there is any more factual information about what happened. It's not voyeurism, it's trying to be a better, safer, more informed pilot.
n5296S
As a lowish-mid-time pilot (750 hrs) I've learned a heck of a lot from usenet, pprune etc, including from much more experienced pilots writing about incidents. Of course the truly uninformed speculaton ("well, he must have tried to do xxx and screwed it up by doing yyy") is just a waste of bits and pixels. But the discussion about the SR22 Tahoe crash, for example, was (mostly) very informed and illuminating (and probably stopped me spending $25K on deice for my plane).
Personally I find all the knee-jerk "condolences" a bit fatiguing - I assume that we all stop and have a think and a pause for the dead and the surviving after every incident, and I don't particularly feel the need to tell people or be told. But there again, before anyone else says it, if you don't like it, don't read it.
In fact when I see an incident outside the aviation media, I do look at pprune, usenet, etc to see if there is any more factual information about what happened. It's not voyeurism, it's trying to be a better, safer, more informed pilot.
n5296S
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nobody has speculated on the actual cause of THIS accident,
Without pre-empting any AAIB report - and also without making any assumptions as to airmanship, I have heard reports that the aircraft attempted to return to the airfield and spun in.
and I'm with n5269s - 'Knee jerk condolences' from those who feel they have got to say something mean nothing (or not to me anyway!) If it's from people I know, then fine, but then they'd say them face to face to my wife and family
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Zlin
Do you think people should carry on turning back, with no hope of surviving, for the next 18 months, until the AAIB confirm that he did in fact do just that and spun in?
If, this weekend, someone goes for the ploughed field, rips the wheels off, but survives, then the talk of not turning back will have been worthwhile.
Do you think people should carry on turning back, with no hope of surviving, for the next 18 months, until the AAIB confirm that he did in fact do just that and spun in?
If, this weekend, someone goes for the ploughed field, rips the wheels off, but survives, then the talk of not turning back will have been worthwhile.
There are years and years of reports out there, covering numerous accidents from as many causes - including a fair number of turnbacks. Nobody needs the report on the latest accident to give you information about the strengths and weaknesses of that particular manoeuvre (or most others), just the nouse to go and read some old accident reports.
G
G