Engine overhaul
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Engine overhaul
I have a Saratoga, with 2300hr on the engine. What advice has anyone regards
1. Factory overhaul
2. Factory rebuild
3. Norvic overhaul
4. Any others?
Regards, S
1. Factory overhaul
2. Factory rebuild
3. Norvic overhaul
4. Any others?
Regards, S
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Location: UK
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If you go for factory go for 'Reman' / Rebuild, to pay them for anything less is waste of money.
Will not say anything about Norvic as I have no first hand knowledge.
I have heard very good things about a guy nick named 'Spike' who is based near Oxford.
Will not say anything about Norvic as I have no first hand knowledge.
I have heard very good things about a guy nick named 'Spike' who is based near Oxford.
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Thanks; Haven't heard of Spike, but Norvic do a 'Millenium' overhaul which I belive uses Superior airparts, and gives a 5 year warranty(?)- which should help subsequent sale. However, don't do it on the IO540 engine, so straight Norvic. Don't know if this is any better (or worse) than anyone else.
Any reccomendations welcome
Any reccomendations welcome
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skybeancon check out http://www.factoryengines.com . Seem to be very reasonably priced. And after all we need a new IO-520 very soon.
Regards,
Regards,
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factory engines
seen them, and yes look good value. They charge $300 over the factory price for the engine. Don't know if you can buy direct from the factory and save the $300, or what they do for their money (arrange shipping perhaps?)- If going for factory overhaul, then they seem a good source.
Is there any substantail saving to be made by having your own engine overhauled by Norvic/Millair or a.n.other? Are there any other advantages (speed?)- otherwise the factory overhaul must surely win.
Is there any substantail saving to be made by having your own engine overhauled by Norvic/Millair or a.n.other? Are there any other advantages (speed?)- otherwise the factory overhaul must surely win.
Had the same dilemma with my Continental 470: 1700 hours therefore on-condition, oil temp up, oil consumption up and compressions down. After endless discusions with bar room "experts" finally followed our engineers advice - the engine is undergoing a Millenium Rebuid with Norvic and is due back next week. Not the cheapest option but should pay dividends in the future.
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I would greatly advise to go with a Millenium overhaul by a reputable shop rather than a 'factory' rebuild.
I have 600 hours on my Millenium cylinders with zero problems on my current TCM IO520.
My friend just installed a Superior IO550 with 5 year warranty (condition to oil analysis). It runs very smooth and powerful. Zero problems during or after installation. Fuel flow was set right too, not too lean as most factory engines. Too lean full rich fuel flow will damage the engine during the first hour.
The previous engine in his previous airplane was a nightmare, new Topcare cylinders lasted no more than 250 hours in two years despite very careful engine management as recorded by JPI. Warranty claims were laughed away by TCM rep.
Look at the crankshaft disaster by LYC.
If you have a good running engine, keep it and have it rebuilt by a local reputable shop, they will stand behind their product.
Saving money will come later, by greatly reduced maintenance bills and properly honoured warranty.
I have 600 hours on my Millenium cylinders with zero problems on my current TCM IO520.
My friend just installed a Superior IO550 with 5 year warranty (condition to oil analysis). It runs very smooth and powerful. Zero problems during or after installation. Fuel flow was set right too, not too lean as most factory engines. Too lean full rich fuel flow will damage the engine during the first hour.
The previous engine in his previous airplane was a nightmare, new Topcare cylinders lasted no more than 250 hours in two years despite very careful engine management as recorded by JPI. Warranty claims were laughed away by TCM rep.
Look at the crankshaft disaster by LYC.
If you have a good running engine, keep it and have it rebuilt by a local reputable shop, they will stand behind their product.
Saving money will come later, by greatly reduced maintenance bills and properly honoured warranty.
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Engine, what?
Both Lycoming and TCM have a very poor record in honouring guarantees on their engines. The main advantage of going for a factory engine is that you can continue flying while you wait for the new engine to be delivered. Norvic have a very good reputation but are sometimes very slow - can be in excess of three months or more. I'm sure many will comment good and bad on this point.
We are fortunate in the UK, perhaps owing to our Formula 1 history, that we have a wealth of expertise here. I have had four engines rebuilt in this country and they have all been excellent jobs at a cheaper cost than a 'factory overhauled' engine. By the way, try getting either Lycoming or TCM to explain the difference between their 'overhauled and 'rebuilt' engines, other than to quote a large price difference.
Another plus for having your own rebuild is that you are consulted all the way as to what is being replaced and why and with what. The choice of Superior cylinders for instance. Millair gave a very good service but i don't think they are still in business. They provided a service such that for £500 they would strip the engine and give you a fixed quote and date for rebuild. If you didn't wish to accept their qoute they would for the money put it back together and return it to you. Both Lycoming and TCM will not by the way accept your old engine as a core if it has been split by anyone else - be warned, you should check.
Brian Mills, near Cambridge, charges a fixed fee for the labour and you pay for parts yourself, at the cost.
We are fortunate in the UK, perhaps owing to our Formula 1 history, that we have a wealth of expertise here. I have had four engines rebuilt in this country and they have all been excellent jobs at a cheaper cost than a 'factory overhauled' engine. By the way, try getting either Lycoming or TCM to explain the difference between their 'overhauled and 'rebuilt' engines, other than to quote a large price difference.
Another plus for having your own rebuild is that you are consulted all the way as to what is being replaced and why and with what. The choice of Superior cylinders for instance. Millair gave a very good service but i don't think they are still in business. They provided a service such that for £500 they would strip the engine and give you a fixed quote and date for rebuild. If you didn't wish to accept their qoute they would for the money put it back together and return it to you. Both Lycoming and TCM will not by the way accept your old engine as a core if it has been split by anyone else - be warned, you should check.
Brian Mills, near Cambridge, charges a fixed fee for the labour and you pay for parts yourself, at the cost.
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engine options
I have recently fitted a Lycoming factory O-235 and all seems well the main reason for the factory option was waranty issues as I have always found the factory to be very fair about problems and the O-540 drive gear bolt inspection was particualy well handeld by the factory.
As for these companys claiming to supply engines at "$300" over factory invoice these were about $ 600 more expensive by the time that the engine was landed in the UK than the well known UK parts supplyer that I normaly use !.
I was very tempted by the Millenium overhaul offered by Jade but like a number of people in the business I cant see how they can offer the waranty that they do and stay in business ! but from a technical standpoint I think that they offer a very good product.
Spike has a growing reputation as an engine builder and I have been watching the progress in service of a number of his jobs. These seem to be performing very well ( a number of them with flying clubs) and I think that for my next engine overhaul I will go to Spike provided that he can offer a good turnaround time. I fear that his turn around time my well suffer from the size of his growing order book.
As for these companys claiming to supply engines at "$300" over factory invoice these were about $ 600 more expensive by the time that the engine was landed in the UK than the well known UK parts supplyer that I normaly use !.
I was very tempted by the Millenium overhaul offered by Jade but like a number of people in the business I cant see how they can offer the waranty that they do and stay in business ! but from a technical standpoint I think that they offer a very good product.
Spike has a growing reputation as an engine builder and I have been watching the progress in service of a number of his jobs. These seem to be performing very well ( a number of them with flying clubs) and I think that for my next engine overhaul I will go to Spike provided that he can offer a good turnaround time. I fear that his turn around time my well suffer from the size of his growing order book.
Last edited by A and C; 20th Feb 2005 at 11:49.
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One other trap: the "zero hour" factory rebuilt engine.
Yes, the factories are the only organizations blessed by the FAA to 'zero hour' your engine. What is really means is that you get back an engine assembled of serviceable parts of unknown origin and unknown life.
Incoming engines are dissassembled and the serviceable parts are thrown in one large bin. Some crankcases / crankshafts may be on their third run or more.
"Zero hours" only means they don't know how many hours the newly assembled engine has. If you have a troublefree first run engine, might as well keep that even if it takes a few more weeks to complete.
Yes, the factories are the only organizations blessed by the FAA to 'zero hour' your engine. What is really means is that you get back an engine assembled of serviceable parts of unknown origin and unknown life.
Incoming engines are dissassembled and the serviceable parts are thrown in one large bin. Some crankcases / crankshafts may be on their third run or more.
"Zero hours" only means they don't know how many hours the newly assembled engine has. If you have a troublefree first run engine, might as well keep that even if it takes a few more weeks to complete.
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Brian Mills
Brian diagnosed over the phone quite a strange problem that I was having with an engine that I was working on and supplied a part to resolve it. 
(No. 3 was receiving injected fuel, getting air and had two healthy sparks but refused to fire. No's 1, 2 and 4 were all healthy and happy bunnies)
Brian Newby - Beford, normally does my stuff for me.
They are both highly recommended and don't charge silly rates.
(No. 3 was receiving injected fuel, getting air and had two healthy sparks but refused to fire. No's 1, 2 and 4 were all healthy and happy bunnies)
Brian Newby - Beford, normally does my stuff for me.
They are both highly recommended and don't charge silly rates.
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Sounds good, but unfortunatley Norvic don't do one of their 'Millenium' overhauls on the IO540- for some reason. They will do an overhaul, but it is not covered with a 5 year warranty/use of Superior Airparts Millenium scheme
