Mode S Delay - Eurocontrol
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
Mode S Delay - Eurocontrol
Mode S statement from Eurocontrol;
“In recent months an increasing number of technical and operational difficulties have become apparent. These are compromising the ability of both the aircraft operators and the air navigation service providers to safely introduce a widespread operational Mode-S service in the timescale previously agreed.”
Rod1
“In recent months an increasing number of technical and operational difficulties have become apparent. These are compromising the ability of both the aircraft operators and the air navigation service providers to safely introduce a widespread operational Mode-S service in the timescale previously agreed.”
Rod1
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I was about to install a Mode S transponder last week when my maintenance outfit told me (amazingly honestly) that EASA agreed last Thursday (i.e. 27th Jan) to postpone mandatory fitting on <250kt planes till 3/2007.
Like everything you read here, this is worth more or less exactly what you paid for it, plus VAT
Like everything you read here, this is worth more or less exactly what you paid for it, plus VAT
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
Some further research amongst people in negotiation with EASA.
There is a general feeling that the 2007 date for VFR may slip. The Airlines are gaining extensions provided they have the majority of their fleets converted. The case for getting a VFR only light a/c converted if it is not fitted on the heavy stuff will not stack up. I understand there is more optimism on exceptions of more classes as well. With a lot of luck, the whole problem might just go away!
Rod1
There is a general feeling that the 2007 date for VFR may slip. The Airlines are gaining extensions provided they have the majority of their fleets converted. The case for getting a VFR only light a/c converted if it is not fitted on the heavy stuff will not stack up. I understand there is more optimism on exceptions of more classes as well. With a lot of luck, the whole problem might just go away!
Rod1
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Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: UK
It's basically a high-tech digital version of mode C, which identifies you individually by an absolute code. Plan is (apparently) that everything leaving the ground (or heading for it) from an airliner to a glider to a parachutist is supposed to have it fitted over the next couple of years.
Causes all sorts of problems, including:-
- Concerns about irradiating crew and pax in non-metal aircraft
- Power supply for the likes of glidres
- Concerns that it'll be used for charging for airspace use
- Pointless because ATC won't be able to handle the information and will filter it out anyhow
- Costs too much money
- The kit doesn't exist yet for many aircraft anyhow.
- Some aircraft (microlights in particular) don't have the spare weight capacity.
In other words, most of GA regard it as something dreamed up by Eurocontrol to make life more difficult and allow them to make money out of us.
G
Causes all sorts of problems, including:-
- Concerns about irradiating crew and pax in non-metal aircraft
- Power supply for the likes of glidres
- Concerns that it'll be used for charging for airspace use
- Pointless because ATC won't be able to handle the information and will filter it out anyhow
- Costs too much money
- The kit doesn't exist yet for many aircraft anyhow.
- Some aircraft (microlights in particular) don't have the spare weight capacity.
In other words, most of GA regard it as something dreamed up by Eurocontrol to make life more difficult and allow them to make money out of us.
G
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The only way that charges for VFR flight could be enforced would be with a quarterly or annual charge.
Mode S can be used to identify an aircraft (using the world-unique 24-bit code that's programmed into the transponder) which is a lot easier than sending a police heli to go after it, but the system cannot be used for per-mile or per-hour airspace charges because the radar coverage isn't there.
Mode S can be used to identify an aircraft (using the world-unique 24-bit code that's programmed into the transponder) which is a lot easier than sending a police heli to go after it, but the system cannot be used for per-mile or per-hour airspace charges because the radar coverage isn't there.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: uk
Just to let you guys know I happen to work close to an outfit with working mode S the size of a bleeper and about the same cost. and having seen the thing in practice it is truely amazing it will make ALL kinds of flying much safer and has applications you guys dont evan know about yet, like having a TCAS style system for less than a grand where you can send massages to the other A/C your self. And how about a flying instructor being able to monitor their student on a X-country flight from a laptop in the office. it's only good stuff guys and it will be ready soon THIS year .
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: uk
Dont know but if you like I will get th specs of the guys building it and try and let you know but the portible one will run of normal batteries so you can just clip it to your belt in the case of microlights and parachutes and stuff.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Essex, UK
It sounds great, but I fear it falls between the same two stools that all others have.
Either it puts out at least 70watts, making it ICAO compliant and powerful enough to be useful, or it is light, cheap and safe to use at less than wing tip distance away from the pilot of a non metalic aircraft.
Everything so far has been one or the other.
One of my main concerns about Mode S is that sooner or later the DfT will realise that the only way they can implement it is to envoke a massive radar/aerial installation programe, one that will rival the mobile phone network. The cost would be £billions and the EU saying that we keep hearing, "the user pays", will result in none of us being able to afford to fly.
I would still be interested in the specs.
Either it puts out at least 70watts, making it ICAO compliant and powerful enough to be useful, or it is light, cheap and safe to use at less than wing tip distance away from the pilot of a non metalic aircraft.
Everything so far has been one or the other.
One of my main concerns about Mode S is that sooner or later the DfT will realise that the only way they can implement it is to envoke a massive radar/aerial installation programe, one that will rival the mobile phone network. The cost would be £billions and the EU saying that we keep hearing, "the user pays", will result in none of us being able to afford to fly.
I would still be interested in the specs.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: uk
Like I said I will try and get all the specs for you when I see the bloke on monday however I do know that an antenna on the top of a house roof picks up signals over all of south england, and that every base station that was set up would have it's own.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
bar shaker
They aren't going to build radars just to track you in your microlight!!
In terms of aviation infrastructure investment, GA is zero, zilch, irrelevant, completely and utterly not worth anyone in power thinking about twice.
BTW I doubt transponders will fall in price much; maybe another few hundred quid, but as any real installation deadline approaches they won't fall any further, for obvious commercial reasons.
They aren't going to build radars just to track you in your microlight!!
In terms of aviation infrastructure investment, GA is zero, zilch, irrelevant, completely and utterly not worth anyone in power thinking about twice.
BTW I doubt transponders will fall in price much; maybe another few hundred quid, but as any real installation deadline approaches they won't fall any further, for obvious commercial reasons.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 616
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From: Essex, UK
IO540
I completely agree with you.
If you had told me, 5 years ago, that the EU will not spend £billions on a GPS satellite system to rival the US, I would have agreed with that too.
If you think that permit aircraft (microlight/PFA) are insignificant in this debate, have a look at what percentage of new aircraft registrations they have represented over the past few years. Add to this the number of sub-permit aircraft (foot launched, paramotors, hang gliders) that don't show up in the registrations. Mode S will affect all of these too.
If you want to fly airways, then Mode S is great. If you want to fly locally on summer evenings, its not so great. If Crazybroadsword's friend has come up with a workable, lightweight, low power unit, then that's progress. At the moment, the situation is like being forced to fix a car battery to your mountain bike, to power its lights, whether you intend to cycle at night or not.
I completely agree with you.
If you had told me, 5 years ago, that the EU will not spend £billions on a GPS satellite system to rival the US, I would have agreed with that too.
If you think that permit aircraft (microlight/PFA) are insignificant in this debate, have a look at what percentage of new aircraft registrations they have represented over the past few years. Add to this the number of sub-permit aircraft (foot launched, paramotors, hang gliders) that don't show up in the registrations. Mode S will affect all of these too.
If you want to fly airways, then Mode S is great. If you want to fly locally on summer evenings, its not so great. If Crazybroadsword's friend has come up with a workable, lightweight, low power unit, then that's progress. At the moment, the situation is like being forced to fix a car battery to your mountain bike, to power its lights, whether you intend to cycle at night or not.
