Power On Stalls, what's the point?
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Power On Stalls, what's the point?
I am currently in the US and took a C152 out for a check out. Everything went well until the instructor asked me to do a full power on stall. This is meant to simulate a stall on full take off power and is not tested for in JAA ppl.
Anyway, if anyone was ever to get themselves in this situation, they should not be allowed to fly, it is a totally unrealistic situation to be in.
In the 152 the right wing drops at the stall, and I kept over compensating with left rudder and spinning it the other way. Consequently the US instructor would not check me out, yet a UK instructor at the FTO said as it is not a JAA requirement I should be signed off. But as it is US airspace the instructor wouldn't sign me off. I think its out to the airfieldto practicepower on stalls again today.
Anyway, if anyone was ever to get themselves in this situation, they should not be allowed to fly, it is a totally unrealistic situation to be in.
In the 152 the right wing drops at the stall, and I kept over compensating with left rudder and spinning it the other way. Consequently the US instructor would not check me out, yet a UK instructor at the FTO said as it is not a JAA requirement I should be signed off. But as it is US airspace the instructor wouldn't sign me off. I think its out to the airfieldto practicepower on stalls again today.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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First of all:
What airspace it is in, or whether it is a JAA or an FAA requirement, is not relevant. What is relevant is that the school you are getting checked out on own the aircraft. As the owners, they are entirely free to determine what checkout they need. If I were the owner of an aircraft which you wanted to rent, and I wanted you to be able to juggle 3 apples whilst using the CRP-1 to wipe your backside, you'd have to either learn to do that (I suspect you could probably already do one, or even both, of these, but maybe not together!), or else go somewhere else.
As for power on stalls, if you are deliberately trying to get into one the attitude is so high that it is hard to see a situation where you can actually get into such an attitude. But that is when you are looking out the front. The times when you are more likely to stall will be when you are not looking out the front, e.g. during a turn when your attention might be focused on what you are turning towards, out the side window. Or, as HWD says, during a go-around when you may be distracted by the flaps (which, incidentally, will lower the stalling attitude back to something more sensible, and make it more vicious), or the radio. In that situation, you may well find yourself with the nose much higher (or even much lower) than you intended it to be......
As for the specific problem you're having:
I would hope your instructor has told you this already, but pick something ahead (a cloud is probably the best thing if you're going to be raising the nose a fair way - much easier to do these stalls on a slightly cloudy day!), and use the rudder to keep it straight ahead. Don't worry about wings dropping - you can sort that out after recovering from the stall. But if you keep that cloud straight in front of you the whole time the stall warner is going off, through into the stall, and then into the recovery, it should work out fine.
Personally, I don't ask people to do power-on stalls as part of a check-out. Power-on incipient stalls, yes - but the only fully-developed stall I ask people to demonstrate is a clean stall. That's because I was taught to place the emphasis on recognition and avoidance rather than recovery. But don't dismiss this as a pointless exercise - if you can nail these power-on stalls, you will understand, and be able to recover from, clean stalls much much better!
FFF
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Consequently the US instructor would not check me out, yet a UK instructor at the FTO said as it is not a JAA requirement I should be signed off
As for power on stalls, if you are deliberately trying to get into one the attitude is so high that it is hard to see a situation where you can actually get into such an attitude. But that is when you are looking out the front. The times when you are more likely to stall will be when you are not looking out the front, e.g. during a turn when your attention might be focused on what you are turning towards, out the side window. Or, as HWD says, during a go-around when you may be distracted by the flaps (which, incidentally, will lower the stalling attitude back to something more sensible, and make it more vicious), or the radio. In that situation, you may well find yourself with the nose much higher (or even much lower) than you intended it to be......
As for the specific problem you're having:
the right wing drops at the stall, and I kept over compensating with left rudder and spinning it the other way
Personally, I don't ask people to do power-on stalls as part of a check-out. Power-on incipient stalls, yes - but the only fully-developed stall I ask people to demonstrate is a clean stall. That's because I was taught to place the emphasis on recognition and avoidance rather than recovery. But don't dismiss this as a pointless exercise - if you can nail these power-on stalls, you will understand, and be able to recover from, clean stalls much much better!
FFF
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"I kept over compensating with left rudder and spinning it the other way"
-which is why we NEVER teach people to try to 'pick up a wing with rudder'! Just keep the a/c in balance at the stall; recovery technique is to maintain full power and move the control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases. Then - and only then - level the wings and recover to normal flight.
-which is why we NEVER teach people to try to 'pick up a wing with rudder'! Just keep the a/c in balance at the stall; recovery technique is to maintain full power and move the control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases. Then - and only then - level the wings and recover to normal flight.
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A lot of pilots have been killed by power-on stalls. Perhaps the most common situation is circling an object on the ground (the girlfriend's house?) and simply exceeding critical angle of attack.
Don't think speed with stalls - think A of A. And the stick is your A of A controller. Unstall the wing with forward stick (assuming an erect, not inverted, stall) as BEagle says. then all will be well.
SSD
Don't think speed with stalls - think A of A. And the stick is your A of A controller. Unstall the wing with forward stick (assuming an erect, not inverted, stall) as BEagle says. then all will be well.
SSD
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I kept over compensating with left rudder and spinning it the other way. Consequently the US instructor would not check me out,
If you mishandle the aircraft whilst demonstrating any one of these manoeuvres then you should congratulate yourself on having identified a weakness in your flying that you were evidently unaware of. Attempting to question the applicability of the exercise is not the right response.
In passing, it is interesting to note how many JAA PPLs struggle with the ground reference manoeuvres required as part of the FAA PPL syllabus. They are not in themselves difficult, but they often reveal flaws in pilot technique that are not demonstrated by going through the standard Uk/JAR instructing menu.
It sounds as though you have a thoroughly useful checkout!
2D
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The "departure stall" is a favourite of some American instructors, in my experience.
One asked me to do one in an Archer with a rather rearward C of G.
No thanks said I, landed and found another FBO.
And if you are uncomfortable with what your instructor is asking you to do, I suggest that you consider the same course of action.
One asked me to do one in an Archer with a rather rearward C of G.
No thanks said I, landed and found another FBO.
And if you are uncomfortable with what your instructor is asking you to do, I suggest that you consider the same course of action.
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So F3G, you are suggesting that if during the course of a checkout, you demonstrate a basic handling flaw, the best course of action is to blame the instructor and find a new one....?
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So you stuffed up a manouever and that's the instructors fault how???
Power on stalls may not be a "JAA" requirement, but any instructor worth a fig should make you do it AND you should be able to handle it. There's alot of stuff not in the tests etc. that can still kill you, does that mean you shouldn't understand what they are or how to deal with them?
As for the statement that a power on stall is unrealistic.... Oh really. I'm sure Bookworm could dig up a few reports of people who've killed themselves that way.
As for not checking you out, absolutely correct. You didn't fulfill their requirements, therefore why should you be allowed to take their a/c up unsupervised?
F3G, If the instructor is asking you to do something unsafe such as spinning with a very aft C of G, then you are correct to query it, but why would you go up in a machine knowing that this was the case. Surely you would know what tasks you needed to perform and the a/c was unsuitable in your eyes, so why fly it??
Changing instructors as you think they are too harsh...... Have a look at yourself please....
Power on stalls may not be a "JAA" requirement, but any instructor worth a fig should make you do it AND you should be able to handle it. There's alot of stuff not in the tests etc. that can still kill you, does that mean you shouldn't understand what they are or how to deal with them?
As for the statement that a power on stall is unrealistic.... Oh really. I'm sure Bookworm could dig up a few reports of people who've killed themselves that way.
As for not checking you out, absolutely correct. You didn't fulfill their requirements, therefore why should you be allowed to take their a/c up unsupervised?
F3G, If the instructor is asking you to do something unsafe such as spinning with a very aft C of G, then you are correct to query it, but why would you go up in a machine knowing that this was the case. Surely you would know what tasks you needed to perform and the a/c was unsuitable in your eyes, so why fly it??
Changing instructors as you think they are too harsh...... Have a look at yourself please....
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It may not be a JAA requirement in order to pass one's Skills Test but surely you must have covered these in your training? If not then it would be a good idea to go and do some as they are potential life-savers - I hated doing them, they scared the hell out of me, but that may well keep my mind a little more focussed, e.g. as in the case above, when circling someone's house.
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Can't remember a single club/type checkout that didn't include a power-on stall, and in fact the first time I did one in a C172 I went into a beautiful incipient spin (the instructor was only slightly reassured that I recovered from that instinctively!). Certainly my last one (T67) included one.
Tim
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Cloud69,
I don't think it is in the JAA syllabus. I do see Smith's point. I think it is a little artificial, but I can see that it is important to understand how the relative control sensitivities cannge with a tip stalled wing and prop wash over the tail.
I seem to recall my instructor demonstrating one in a 152 to show how to get it to spin.
I don't think it is in the JAA syllabus. I do see Smith's point. I think it is a little artificial, but I can see that it is important to understand how the relative control sensitivities cannge with a tip stalled wing and prop wash over the tail.
I seem to recall my instructor demonstrating one in a 152 to show how to get it to spin.
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In passing, it is interesting to note how many JAA PPLs struggle with the ground reference manoeuvres required as part of the FAA PPL syllabus. They are not in themselves difficult, but they often reveal flaws in pilot technique that are not demonstrated by going through the standard Uk/JAR instructing menu.
tKF
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Smith, I wasn’t there so I don’t know for sure but I would imagine that although the instructor was concerned in particular about your power on stalls, he would have also been concerned about your general handling abilities. You may have seen some argument on these pages about US students requiring extra hours with an instructor when returning to the UK – well the reverse is true insomuch that either way you have to convince an instructor who doesn’t know you that you are safe to be set loose with his/her clubs aircraft.
The fact is that the instructor doesn’t want you to bend the aircraft or heaven forbid kill yourself. Be patient, extra instructor hours will benefit you and for sure the instructor and aircraft is cheaper in the USA than in the UK.
The advice given by BEagle is the best you are going to get
quote:
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-which is why we NEVER teach people to try to 'pick up a wing with rudder'! Just keep the a/c in balance at the stall; recovery technique is to maintain full power and move the control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases. Then - and only then - level the wings and recover to normal flight.
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The only thing that I would add is that you should move the yoke gently forward. I did fly with somebody who was having the same problems as yourself and I did identify that he was not keeping the ball in the middle at the approach to the stall. Certainly it should be easy with practice to keep the aircraft level in the stall using only the rudder if you are not struggling to keep the aircraft level with the ailerons when the stall occurs(but don't try this without an experienced instructor on board). It is essential that you fly the aircraft with the ball in the middle all the time since an uncoordinated stall or turn at low speeds can have some odd if not predictable and potentially dangerous consequences!
The fact is that the instructor doesn’t want you to bend the aircraft or heaven forbid kill yourself. Be patient, extra instructor hours will benefit you and for sure the instructor and aircraft is cheaper in the USA than in the UK.
The advice given by BEagle is the best you are going to get
quote:
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-which is why we NEVER teach people to try to 'pick up a wing with rudder'! Just keep the a/c in balance at the stall; recovery technique is to maintain full power and move the control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases. Then - and only then - level the wings and recover to normal flight.
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The only thing that I would add is that you should move the yoke gently forward. I did fly with somebody who was having the same problems as yourself and I did identify that he was not keeping the ball in the middle at the approach to the stall. Certainly it should be easy with practice to keep the aircraft level in the stall using only the rudder if you are not struggling to keep the aircraft level with the ailerons when the stall occurs(but don't try this without an experienced instructor on board). It is essential that you fly the aircraft with the ball in the middle all the time since an uncoordinated stall or turn at low speeds can have some odd if not predictable and potentially dangerous consequences!
The original comment referred to a 'full power on stall'. If that means recovering from a fully-developed stall entered with full power, then it is perhaps unsurprising that he had difficulty as he was probably totally out of his depth!
Anyone should find demonstrating recovery from a stall in the approach configuration reasonably straightforward - but normally the recovery is required at the incipient stage only. We demonstrate the fully-developed stall in the approach configuration during Stalling 2, but it is not a requirement for any JAR-FCL LST/LPC or Skill Test.
A full power stall might be demonstrated during training to the fully-developed stage, but I wouldn't expect a PPL student to practise it. Also, due to the high likelihood of an incipient spin, I would require the a/c to be in the utility category for such an aggressive manoeuvre.
There is a balance between safe handling skills and risk avoidance. I don't see the relevance of anyone being required to demonstrate recovery from a fully-developed full power stall unless they are hiring an a/c for aerobatics.
What was the ground brief like - and was the requirement discussed properly?
Anyone should find demonstrating recovery from a stall in the approach configuration reasonably straightforward - but normally the recovery is required at the incipient stage only. We demonstrate the fully-developed stall in the approach configuration during Stalling 2, but it is not a requirement for any JAR-FCL LST/LPC or Skill Test.
A full power stall might be demonstrated during training to the fully-developed stage, but I wouldn't expect a PPL student to practise it. Also, due to the high likelihood of an incipient spin, I would require the a/c to be in the utility category for such an aggressive manoeuvre.
There is a balance between safe handling skills and risk avoidance. I don't see the relevance of anyone being required to demonstrate recovery from a fully-developed full power stall unless they are hiring an a/c for aerobatics.
What was the ground brief like - and was the requirement discussed properly?
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People unfamiliar with the FAA and its interest in "Power On Stalls", may be interested to read this document:
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/practica...s-8081-14a.pdf
Partly for clarity, and partly to avoid disputes when and if people are failed for their various FAA licences, these booklets are published, one per licence or rating. The describe in detail the manoeuvres that an examiner can ask an applicant to perform, along with acceptable performance criteria.
The Power On Stall is covered on page 55 of the PDF file (document page 1-28). In lower performance aircraft, these will normally be performed at climbout power setting (25" and 2500), the applicant having previously slowed the aircraft down with a marked power reduction, before simultaneously applying the requird power and pitching up to the stall. In aircraft such as the 152, it is not unusual for the exercise to be accomplished at full throttle.
You'll note, with reference to BEagles comments, both the power settings that the FAA requires, and the desired recovery technique (point 6). As "smith" reports his performance, he would have failed an FAA PPL checkride.
In reply to the Kentish Fledgling, the Ground Reference Manoeuvres can also be found in the PDF, page 49.
2D
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/practica...s-8081-14a.pdf
Partly for clarity, and partly to avoid disputes when and if people are failed for their various FAA licences, these booklets are published, one per licence or rating. The describe in detail the manoeuvres that an examiner can ask an applicant to perform, along with acceptable performance criteria.
The Power On Stall is covered on page 55 of the PDF file (document page 1-28). In lower performance aircraft, these will normally be performed at climbout power setting (25" and 2500), the applicant having previously slowed the aircraft down with a marked power reduction, before simultaneously applying the requird power and pitching up to the stall. In aircraft such as the 152, it is not unusual for the exercise to be accomplished at full throttle.
You'll note, with reference to BEagles comments, both the power settings that the FAA requires, and the desired recovery technique (point 6). As "smith" reports his performance, he would have failed an FAA PPL checkride.
In reply to the Kentish Fledgling, the Ground Reference Manoeuvres can also be found in the PDF, page 49.
2D
"....simultaneously applying the requird power and pitching up to the stall. In aircraft such as the 152, it is not unusual for the exercise to be accomplished at full throttle."
Such deliberate mishandling seems totally inappropriate and positively invites an incipient spin.
Hence my comment about ensuring that the a/c is in the utility category; it should also be cleared for intentional spinning!
The CAA/JAA preference for stall 'awareness' seems considerably safer and more realistic to me.
Such deliberate mishandling seems totally inappropriate and positively invites an incipient spin.
Hence my comment about ensuring that the a/c is in the utility category; it should also be cleared for intentional spinning!
The CAA/JAA preference for stall 'awareness' seems considerably safer and more realistic to me.
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Such deliberate mishandling seems totally inappropriate and positively invites an incipient spin.
The thing being checked is the candidate's ability to enter the manoeuvre in a controlled manner (with particular reference to the configuration and the ball), and to exit it with the appropriate control inputs in the correct sequence. Not for nothing do we find spin awareness as the next section on the same page of the Practical Test Standards document.
2D