How many PPL's are there in the UK?
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From: Canada
The money is there OK, the punters just choose to spend it elsewhere.
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From: Hertford
Interesting for me, that. I'm too young to appreciate how it is to be dealing in higher orders of magnitude than I can imagine, but having financial burdens that leave one equally shackled.
However you define wealth, it is incredibly rare to be able to afford really posh flying and I still maintain that the tiny few that have money forget how un-normal they are (I spend a lot of time dealing with child care workers, for an example of a stark contrast...!).
I can't speak for anyone else, but what keeps me flying isn't the pleasure of having a powerful, complex machine, top avionics and general luxury (obviously
) but the pleasure of having and using skills.
Don't get me wrong (recalling the great GPS debate...), I've always agreed with IO540 that things should be made as enjoyable and safe as possible. But I relish doing something remarkable and doing it as well as I can and trying to do it better. And, I completely admit, I also relish the knowledge that not many people can do what I can. They could, if they wanted to, but flying isn't like getting into a Merc and driving; it's a lot less like instant gratification...
Anyway, I notice this debate has shifted onto another thread now. Someone mentions getting more girls involved... well, I'm doing my best! I'm approaching anorak status myself now.
Penguinetta pp. Penguina
However you define wealth, it is incredibly rare to be able to afford really posh flying and I still maintain that the tiny few that have money forget how un-normal they are (I spend a lot of time dealing with child care workers, for an example of a stark contrast...!).
I can't speak for anyone else, but what keeps me flying isn't the pleasure of having a powerful, complex machine, top avionics and general luxury (obviously
) but the pleasure of having and using skills. Don't get me wrong (recalling the great GPS debate...), I've always agreed with IO540 that things should be made as enjoyable and safe as possible. But I relish doing something remarkable and doing it as well as I can and trying to do it better. And, I completely admit, I also relish the knowledge that not many people can do what I can. They could, if they wanted to, but flying isn't like getting into a Merc and driving; it's a lot less like instant gratification...
Anyway, I notice this debate has shifted onto another thread now. Someone mentions getting more girls involved... well, I'm doing my best! I'm approaching anorak status myself now.
Penguinetta pp. Penguina
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From: EuroGA.org
However you define wealth, it is incredibly rare to be able to afford really posh flying
Last edited by IO540; 7th December 2004 at 13:26.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
IO540,
We may have a north-south divide here. Where I live, that'll still buy you a reasonable detached house...though only just. And at the pretty active flying school/club (it really is both) where I do my f/w flying, I don't think there are any aircraft of that sort of cost, or virtually anyone who could afford to buy them. And I don't see many Mercs either, on the M54, M6, M56, M62, or M60. And there aren't too many exclusive golf clubs, and the sailing club to which I used to belong kept it's cost extremely low.
The point I'm making is that I don't think on a nationwide basis there are that many people with the sort of money you're talking about...possibly not at all outside the South-East. Virtually all the turbine helicopter owner/operators I've met (ir people with that sort of money) run their own medium to large size businesses, and the country just can't support that many businesses of that size! At least up here, your idea really, really wouldn't work.
We may have a north-south divide here. Where I live, that'll still buy you a reasonable detached house...though only just. And at the pretty active flying school/club (it really is both) where I do my f/w flying, I don't think there are any aircraft of that sort of cost, or virtually anyone who could afford to buy them. And I don't see many Mercs either, on the M54, M6, M56, M62, or M60. And there aren't too many exclusive golf clubs, and the sailing club to which I used to belong kept it's cost extremely low.
The point I'm making is that I don't think on a nationwide basis there are that many people with the sort of money you're talking about...possibly not at all outside the South-East. Virtually all the turbine helicopter owner/operators I've met (ir people with that sort of money) run their own medium to large size businesses, and the country just can't support that many businesses of that size! At least up here, your idea really, really wouldn't work.
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From: EuroGA.org
Whirly
You'd be amazed how much business there is in the UK.
But I am not suggesting attracting people who can buy a 200k plane - nothing like that. Just attracting people that can really afford to fly (instead of moaning when some place puts £2 on their landing fee) would be a helluva achievement.
Virtually all the turbine helicopter owner/operators I've met (ir people with that sort of money) run their own medium to large size businesses, and the country just can't support that many businesses of that size
But I am not suggesting attracting people who can buy a 200k plane - nothing like that. Just attracting people that can really afford to fly (instead of moaning when some place puts £2 on their landing fee) would be a helluva achievement.
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Penguina,
You certainly speak for me. Flying is a fascinating and broad subject. I think I have learnt more in the last two years than in the previous twenty! My main wish is to utilise this skill for a purpose, be that for a living (possible, but chancey), as a part-time instructor (rapidly becoming my preferred option) or as a serious mode of transport (occasionally practical).
I can't speak for anyone else, but what keeps me flying isn't the pleasure of having a powerful, complex machine, top avionics and general luxury (obviously ) but the pleasure of having and using skills.
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From: Hertford
Likewise, High Wing, likewise! (I haven't just learned about aviation and aeroplanes, I've learned huge amounts about myself too.)
Let's hope all these incredibly wealthy businessmen that the UK is dripping with put lots of their money into GA so maintenance costs are reduced and the likes of you and I have a chance to fulfil our wish, shall we!
Let's hope all these incredibly wealthy businessmen that the UK is dripping with put lots of their money into GA so maintenance costs are reduced and the likes of you and I have a chance to fulfil our wish, shall we!
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From: Canada
I can't speak for anyone else, but what keeps me flying isn't the pleasure of having a powerful, complex machine, top avionics and general luxury (obviously ) but the pleasure of having and using skills.
Don't get me wrong (recalling the great GPS debate...), I've always agreed with IO540 that things should be made as enjoyable and safe as possible.
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From: I have no idea but the view's great.
IO
Have we hit upon something of an obsession here?
Lot of talk about money, I agree that aviation needs money but not necessarily in the way that you want it invested.
I think perhaps you mean that not enough people entering GA have the money to pursue the hobby in the way you see fit.
There are many, many ways to fly; and not everyone wants the same thing. Bells, whistles, shiny switches and a massive price tag is not everyones idea of fun.
REALLY?
Have we hit upon something of an obsession here?
Just attracting people that can really afford to fly (instead of moaning when some place puts £2 on their landing fee) would be a helluva achievement.
But anyone doubting how much money there is needs only to stand next to the M25 and count the £40k+ cars driven by under-40 year olds.
As the operator of a new-ish £200k plane, with all the kit
High income people (however one defines that) are a pretty substantial minority today. There are about 3M people that pay tax at 40% i.e. earn over £35k p.a.
It would be great if one could attract some of that money into GA..
But anyone doubting how much money there is needs only to stand next to the M25 and count the £40k+ cars driven by under-40 year olds.
As the operator of a new-ish £200k plane, with all the kit
High income people (however one defines that) are a pretty substantial minority today. There are about 3M people that pay tax at 40% i.e. earn over £35k p.a.
It would be great if one could attract some of that money into GA..
doesn't most of it come down to most people entering GA not having enough money to pursue this hobby to start with? That's the REAL problem.
There are many, many ways to fly; and not everyone wants the same thing. Bells, whistles, shiny switches and a massive price tag is not everyones idea of fun.
But seriously, I don't think money is much to do with it.
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From: Smurph Castle
I am sure that you mean "things should be made as enjoyable and reasonably safe as possible".
But I also object to the idea that wealth should be a qualification to fly. Sometimes people on this forum assume a tone that almost implies it's irresponsible to fly if you can't afford to do it well. But I manage to stay current somehow and can navigate (nearly) as successfully by ded-reckoning as my counterparts with expensive GPS can - it's just harder work, that's all.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
In the UK, anyone can navigate by map and compass and dead reckoning. The whole country is full of roads and railways and hills and towns and other good nav features. Yes, even East Anglia, where I've had people tell me traditional nav is nearly impossible - it's only impossible if you're no good at it. If people want to navigate by GPS or anything else it's up to them, but you don't NEED to.
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From: EuroGA.org
Whirly
Technically, what you say is of course correct. One can go everywhere on dead reckoning. One can go everywhere VFR. I know of a man who flew to Katmandu VFR, in a C150 I think.
But it's a whole lot easier to get in a car and drive around East Anglia. In fact driving from A to B in East Anglia - or most parts of the UK - is almost certainly quicker than flying, on a door to door basis.
How many people are going to spend £100/hr to fly around the same old barns? Just like one's local instructors, one soon gets to know the sheep by their first names
For most PPLs, flying is a leisure activity. (It has to be, really, because planning flights in advance on a plain PPL is a dead loss).
So, what keeps people hanging in any leisure activity?
Continued interest I would say.
Only the most determined anorak is going to fly around East Anglia for very long - regardless of how great the social scene is at the club. And rest assured that with that many anoraks around, the social scene won't be all that great. There will be few if any girlz, which leaves exactly what? Beer?
So one has to find a way to make venturing further afield easy and interesting. France is only 1-2hrs away from most of Southern UK, 2-3hrs away from most of the rest. One can't drive there very quickly either.
Now try navigating around France, with its extensive military airspace, TRAs, you name it, on map reading. It isn't like the UK, where you can fly, NO RADIO, anywhere where flying isn't actually prohibited. Most of France is prohibited, different bits at different times at different levels. But it's easy to fly there - the key is knowing for sure where one is.
I know of a number of pilots who have given up not because of lack of money or lack of time. They gave up because they didn't have the confidence to fly to the more interesting places. The way flying is taught in the UK, fresh PPLs come out with nowhere near enough confidence to go somewhere for real. A lot of them (probably a lot of the smarter ones) pack it in. A lot of the others get some press coverage
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp...71&orderby=ASC
of which at least 99% must be completely avoidable.
This is like a broken record too.
Technically, what you say is of course correct. One can go everywhere on dead reckoning. One can go everywhere VFR. I know of a man who flew to Katmandu VFR, in a C150 I think.
But it's a whole lot easier to get in a car and drive around East Anglia. In fact driving from A to B in East Anglia - or most parts of the UK - is almost certainly quicker than flying, on a door to door basis.
How many people are going to spend £100/hr to fly around the same old barns? Just like one's local instructors, one soon gets to know the sheep by their first names
For most PPLs, flying is a leisure activity. (It has to be, really, because planning flights in advance on a plain PPL is a dead loss).
So, what keeps people hanging in any leisure activity?
Continued interest I would say.
Only the most determined anorak is going to fly around East Anglia for very long - regardless of how great the social scene is at the club. And rest assured that with that many anoraks around, the social scene won't be all that great. There will be few if any girlz, which leaves exactly what? Beer?
So one has to find a way to make venturing further afield easy and interesting. France is only 1-2hrs away from most of Southern UK, 2-3hrs away from most of the rest. One can't drive there very quickly either.
Now try navigating around France, with its extensive military airspace, TRAs, you name it, on map reading. It isn't like the UK, where you can fly, NO RADIO, anywhere where flying isn't actually prohibited. Most of France is prohibited, different bits at different times at different levels. But it's easy to fly there - the key is knowing for sure where one is.
I know of a number of pilots who have given up not because of lack of money or lack of time. They gave up because they didn't have the confidence to fly to the more interesting places. The way flying is taught in the UK, fresh PPLs come out with nowhere near enough confidence to go somewhere for real. A lot of them (probably a lot of the smarter ones) pack it in. A lot of the others get some press coverage
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/comm.asp...71&orderby=ASC
of which at least 99% must be completely avoidable.
This is like a broken record too.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
IO540,
What you say about flying in France is absolutely true. Though we did fine there with VORs, and only occasionally used the GPS as a back-up.
But there's plenty of flying in the UK - and Ireland - to keep most PPLs going for a few years at least. Cornwall, with loads of new airfields to try. Scotland, with the Highlands and Islands. Fly-ins, the Dawn to Dusk, nav competions...if you fancy something different. ALL of this can be done relatively cheaply, in fairly basic aircraft, VFR, and using traditional nav. It doesn't have to be, but it can.
The lack of confidence of new PPLs is a different issue entirely. GPS or not, after my first trip beyond Northern France last year, I was glad I had the confidence which comes with a few years of flying, if only to deal with ATC...
"Lille, we're NOT over the channel, we're almost in your airspace"; "Metz, who exactly do you suggest we talk to then?" It was a steep learning curve...and that wasn't the nav!
New PPLs will probably only get the type of confidence that's needed through experience. The easiest, best, safest, and most fun way of doing that is finding someone else to fly with. For that you need friendly clubs where you'll meet other pilots. Who cares if they're a bit anoraky or in some other way not your type; you're going to fly with them or ask their advice, not marry them! That way you can gradually extend what you do, and that process can be continued for quite a while, in a basic hired tatty old C150, before it becomes boring and you need to move on.
As I've said, when I got my PPL(A) I found another newish PPL to fly with. Then I joined the BWPA, and met someone who wanted to do long distance stuff, but didn't have anyone to go with. That's how my longer trips got started. The BWPA is great if you're female, just for making those kind of contacts. Some men think an equivalent organisation is needed for men. We do have it, lots of them in fact - they're called flying clubs. All it takes is for those of us who frequent them to make them more friendly places where people can get to know each other.
Yet another broken record......
What you say about flying in France is absolutely true. Though we did fine there with VORs, and only occasionally used the GPS as a back-up.
But there's plenty of flying in the UK - and Ireland - to keep most PPLs going for a few years at least. Cornwall, with loads of new airfields to try. Scotland, with the Highlands and Islands. Fly-ins, the Dawn to Dusk, nav competions...if you fancy something different. ALL of this can be done relatively cheaply, in fairly basic aircraft, VFR, and using traditional nav. It doesn't have to be, but it can.
The lack of confidence of new PPLs is a different issue entirely. GPS or not, after my first trip beyond Northern France last year, I was glad I had the confidence which comes with a few years of flying, if only to deal with ATC...
"Lille, we're NOT over the channel, we're almost in your airspace"; "Metz, who exactly do you suggest we talk to then?" It was a steep learning curve...and that wasn't the nav!
New PPLs will probably only get the type of confidence that's needed through experience. The easiest, best, safest, and most fun way of doing that is finding someone else to fly with. For that you need friendly clubs where you'll meet other pilots. Who cares if they're a bit anoraky or in some other way not your type; you're going to fly with them or ask their advice, not marry them! That way you can gradually extend what you do, and that process can be continued for quite a while, in a basic hired tatty old C150, before it becomes boring and you need to move on.
As I've said, when I got my PPL(A) I found another newish PPL to fly with. Then I joined the BWPA, and met someone who wanted to do long distance stuff, but didn't have anyone to go with. That's how my longer trips got started. The BWPA is great if you're female, just for making those kind of contacts. Some men think an equivalent organisation is needed for men. We do have it, lots of them in fact - they're called flying clubs. All it takes is for those of us who frequent them to make them more friendly places where people can get to know each other.
Yet another broken record......
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From: SX in SX in UK
My advice to any recently qualified PPL is to go out and get their Confidence Rating. Leave the IMC & the Night Rating for a while, just go out & fly for a few 10s of hours until they are comfortable with the whole flying 'thing'.
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From: Smurph Castle
Too right, and it's a good idea to get in there straight away while skills are still sharp and you're confident in yourself following your pass. It fades quick, I found!
I got through that this summer and am currently undertaking my first rating and you know what I found???
...that I had become quite used to the responsibility!
Having someone on my right telling me what to do once more gave me a luxurious sense of immortality! Am trying to keep flying regularly as P1 concurrently so I don't lapse back into that awful passivity.
I got through that this summer and am currently undertaking my first rating and you know what I found???
...that I had become quite used to the responsibility!
Having someone on my right telling me what to do once more gave me a luxurious sense of immortality! Am trying to keep flying regularly as P1 concurrently so I don't lapse back into that awful passivity.
