flying vacation in Arizona - February
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flying vacation in Arizona - February
Planning a low-budget flying holidays in Arizona, mid-February. I'll fly into Phoenix; the rest is to be decided. Any advice on a good quality rental planes? A C 172 with a moving map would be fine. What's especially worth to see in the area?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Grumman,
I spent two months hour-building based in Phoenix. This was about 3 years ago, so some of my information may be slightly out of date.
I did my flying with Chandler Air Service, and thought they were excellent. Had some of the best instruction there that I've had anywhere. However, they are not the cheapest around. They don't have C172s (at least they didn't when I was there), but they have plenty of PA28s. No idea if any have moving-map GPS, though - the only GPS I saw there was in a PA18, and it wasn't moving map.
Places to fly. Absolutely top of my list would be Sedona. It's quite a tricky strip, though - mostly used for tourist flights by pilots who know it like the back of their hand. Apparently some schools won't let you take their aircraft in there, so check before you hand over your cash. I contacted a company called Pink Jeep Tours, who picked me up from the airport, gave me an absolutely fantastic off-road tour through the red hills, and dropped me off at the airport afterwards.
Tucson is worth a brief visit, but it's not that exciting. However, the Air and Space Museum there is fantastic - and make sure you do the visit to the Aircraft Graveyard. Buy your ticket at the museum entrace, and get the bus from outside the museum. The museum itself is a short taxi-ride from the airport. Besides the local attractions, the airport itself is worth visiting just to share runways with F16s, A320s and the like, get a Follow-Me truck to take you to your parking space and then give you a lift from the aircraft to the terminal, and all for the grand price of Zero. (The Follow-Me driver wouldn't even accept a tip.)
Grand Canyon. There are some specified routes for flying across the canyon. I didn't do this, and I regret not having done it now. I don't know how much you can see from these routes, but even if it's not as good as the official sightseeing flights, I'd still like to be able to say that I had done it. What I did do was fly into Grand Canyon airport, then walk to the other side of the airport to jump onto a helicoptor sightseeing flight, which was awesome.
For some slightly longer trips, you could also consider flying to Las Vegas, or a little further still to the west-coast Californian cities (I did Los Angelses, but San Fransisco and San Diego are both do-able too.)
Feel free to ask here, or PM me, if you want any more info or advice. You will have a great time - it is a fantastic part of the world to fly in!
FFF
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I spent two months hour-building based in Phoenix. This was about 3 years ago, so some of my information may be slightly out of date.
I did my flying with Chandler Air Service, and thought they were excellent. Had some of the best instruction there that I've had anywhere. However, they are not the cheapest around. They don't have C172s (at least they didn't when I was there), but they have plenty of PA28s. No idea if any have moving-map GPS, though - the only GPS I saw there was in a PA18, and it wasn't moving map.
Places to fly. Absolutely top of my list would be Sedona. It's quite a tricky strip, though - mostly used for tourist flights by pilots who know it like the back of their hand. Apparently some schools won't let you take their aircraft in there, so check before you hand over your cash. I contacted a company called Pink Jeep Tours, who picked me up from the airport, gave me an absolutely fantastic off-road tour through the red hills, and dropped me off at the airport afterwards.
Tucson is worth a brief visit, but it's not that exciting. However, the Air and Space Museum there is fantastic - and make sure you do the visit to the Aircraft Graveyard. Buy your ticket at the museum entrace, and get the bus from outside the museum. The museum itself is a short taxi-ride from the airport. Besides the local attractions, the airport itself is worth visiting just to share runways with F16s, A320s and the like, get a Follow-Me truck to take you to your parking space and then give you a lift from the aircraft to the terminal, and all for the grand price of Zero. (The Follow-Me driver wouldn't even accept a tip.)
Grand Canyon. There are some specified routes for flying across the canyon. I didn't do this, and I regret not having done it now. I don't know how much you can see from these routes, but even if it's not as good as the official sightseeing flights, I'd still like to be able to say that I had done it. What I did do was fly into Grand Canyon airport, then walk to the other side of the airport to jump onto a helicoptor sightseeing flight, which was awesome.
For some slightly longer trips, you could also consider flying to Las Vegas, or a little further still to the west-coast Californian cities (I did Los Angelses, but San Fransisco and San Diego are both do-able too.)
Feel free to ask here, or PM me, if you want any more info or advice. You will have a great time - it is a fantastic part of the world to fly in!
FFF
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For something a little different, consider lovely Prescott Love field, about a 2Hr drive N of Phoenix. There are 2 FBO's but I suggest Northaire http://www.northaire.com/ who I have flown with for many years (but never in February).
Sedona, Flagstaff, Canyon, Meteor Crater are all about a 1Hr jolly by 172. They have several SP's and an R which is good for rental because students prefer the SP's.
It's a small town atmosphere and you'll get a good welcome. Do let me know if you decide to go. But it will be mighty cold (5024') in February!
Edited to add: FFF: the Canyon VFR routes are well worth doing. It takes about 90 mins to do the round trip out of GCN (there's a special chart), navigation is no problem and you can get flight following. The views are fantastic because you have time to loiter and take it all in. In Feb, the air will be cold and clear, free of the smoke that spoils the view quite a lot in the summer and the plane will climb, but not more than 2 up in a 172! You can also route up to Page, a very nice stopover, and Lake Powell to Monument valley.
David
Sedona, Flagstaff, Canyon, Meteor Crater are all about a 1Hr jolly by 172. They have several SP's and an R which is good for rental because students prefer the SP's.
It's a small town atmosphere and you'll get a good welcome. Do let me know if you decide to go. But it will be mighty cold (5024') in February!
Edited to add: FFF: the Canyon VFR routes are well worth doing. It takes about 90 mins to do the round trip out of GCN (there's a special chart), navigation is no problem and you can get flight following. The views are fantastic because you have time to loiter and take it all in. In Feb, the air will be cold and clear, free of the smoke that spoils the view quite a lot in the summer and the plane will climb, but not more than 2 up in a 172! You can also route up to Page, a very nice stopover, and Lake Powell to Monument valley.
David
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I visit PHX quite a bit with my job and when I last visited I had time to do a spot of flying out there. I used Tailwind Flight Centre at Chandler Municipal Airport. They are a Cessna Pilot Center and the quality of the aircraft is excellent. I last flew a <1 year old C172 with full moving map GPS, two axis programmable auto-pilot, dual nav-com, digital transponder, etc, etc. Leather seats as well!
I can't remember the rates at the moment, but will still have the reciept at home so can confim that later.
Tom, the guy who runs this smart little outfit, is UK aware - he's flown over here and is aware of JAA/FAA differences.
Chandler Municipal is about 30mins drive from Tempe, which is the area to the south of KPHX (Sky Harbour). Before solo hire (which I have not done) they may require some mountain flying check-out if you want to head north of PHX. Next time I visit I want to get upto Sedona, which looks like THE coolest airport to land at!
www.tailwindflight.com or +1 602 750 0243
I can't remember the rates at the moment, but will still have the reciept at home so can confim that later.
Tom, the guy who runs this smart little outfit, is UK aware - he's flown over here and is aware of JAA/FAA differences.
Chandler Municipal is about 30mins drive from Tempe, which is the area to the south of KPHX (Sky Harbour). Before solo hire (which I have not done) they may require some mountain flying check-out if you want to head north of PHX. Next time I visit I want to get upto Sedona, which looks like THE coolest airport to land at!
www.tailwindflight.com or +1 602 750 0243
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As FFF says, Chandler Air Service are the best place in the valley. They do like to get to know you though before they fully relax, which is not a bad thing, but it's a bit strange at first. Their instruction is the best around for a flight school, they will give you a hard time 
Another choice would be Falcon Executive Aviation at Falcon Field, they cost a bit more. Falcon Exec have a superb reputation for maintanance and people bring their planes in from all over the Southwest, and I think that puts the prices up for the rental fleet. Their owner is one of the most honest and decent people you will find in business.
Plenty of places to see and do. Fly into McCarran in Vegas at night and mix it with the big boys.
Another choice would be Falcon Executive Aviation at Falcon Field, they cost a bit more. Falcon Exec have a superb reputation for maintanance and people bring their planes in from all over the Southwest, and I think that puts the prices up for the rental fleet. Their owner is one of the most honest and decent people you will find in business.
Plenty of places to see and do. Fly into McCarran in Vegas at night and mix it with the big boys.
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Thanks for all the tips, it really makes my planning easier. Just a quick question for the "Locals": Is density altitude a factor in February?
Another issue that comes to mind: Has anybody been to USA to do any flying after the newest rules on immigartion came into effect in October? There seem to be some mixed opinions about the need for the security clearance; I don't intend to do any training as I hold the FAA PPL with a valid BFR and medical. Any firsthand experience?
Another issue that comes to mind: Has anybody been to USA to do any flying after the newest rules on immigartion came into effect in October? There seem to be some mixed opinions about the need for the security clearance; I don't intend to do any training as I hold the FAA PPL with a valid BFR and medical. Any firsthand experience?
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Density altitude should always be factored into calculations, both in the mountains or elsewhere. The effect in the higher ground in the Arizona winter is nowhere near as pronounced as in the summer of course, in fact it gets so cold at nights up there you might find your Density Altitude is 'below' your pressure altitude. It also gets so cold that engine starting becomes an issue. It's a good idea to pay for some extra horsepower, it's cheap and you never know when you might need it. If you are not used to higher elevations that extra 20HP can keep the heartrate down.
The flying is great though. In the summer afternoons you will occasionally get true severe turbulence up in the north (and severe is not nice at all). In the winter you get hundreds of miles of visibility and its often as smooth as glass.
The flying is great though. In the summer afternoons you will occasionally get true severe turbulence up in the north (and severe is not nice at all). In the winter you get hundreds of miles of visibility and its often as smooth as glass.
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Agree with all thats been said about Chandler Air Services.
The Archers are good workhorses but tatty.
The density altitude is something of a shock to a UK flyer particularly Flagstaff which was at 9750' when I was there last year.
We had to agree to take Chandlers "Mountain flying" training before being let loose on Arizonas beautiful skies, practising at Sedona can scare the cr*p out of you if you get it wrong.
Have fun its well worth it.
The Archers are good workhorses but tatty.
The density altitude is something of a shock to a UK flyer particularly Flagstaff which was at 9750' when I was there last year.
We had to agree to take Chandlers "Mountain flying" training before being let loose on Arizonas beautiful skies, practising at Sedona can scare the cr*p out of you if you get it wrong.
Have fun its well worth it.
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Regarding the immigration question. There is some useful information on other forums regarding this question. First of all if you are hour building and you have a licence you don't need a visa. Secondly the new TSA rules do not apply to hours builders in that you don't need to submit information before your arrival and you don't have to go through the photograph/fingerprint thing. Have a look at the AOPA website for lots of good infomation about the new TSA requirements www.aopa.org
Have a good time.
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
Have a good time.
Regards,
Chopperpilot 47
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Sedona is a splendid place to go, you fly through magnificent scenery and there is a great restaurant on the field which does a tasty breakfast. There are several biplanes to watch doing aerobatic take offs and scenic flights (and forced landings on city streets )
You need to treat the place with some respect though, the NTSB database is full of pilot errors causing damage and death. It gets windy up there and the lack of performance is obvious.
There is also a Sunday Flier crowd who don't behave in the pattern, on far too many occasions I've had to break off on final to avoid spamcans coming at me like guided missiles.
So enjoy, but be careful.....
)You need to treat the place with some respect though, the NTSB database is full of pilot errors causing damage and death. It gets windy up there and the lack of performance is obvious.
There is also a Sunday Flier crowd who don't behave in the pattern, on far too many occasions I've had to break off on final to avoid spamcans coming at me like guided missiles.
So enjoy, but be careful.....
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Sedona - Tricky???
....I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I ventured to Sedona on my last US flying trip, would have put me off! As it happens I took off from Grand Canyone International a little later than planned and it was nightfall 10 minutes after take-off. Flying in the desert at night was a whole lot different to flying around the South Buckinghamshire area where I did my night rating 2 weeks previously- ie very little to see on the ground. I was aware of high ground around Sedona from the charts and so elected to do a fairly steep spiral descent into the field (having got the runway lights to turn on - what a great system) and touched down on the mesa strip no problems. In the morning we saw where we had landed!!! What a surprise, mountains and cables everywhere, and my wife was 3 months pregnant with what turned out to be twins at the time......
Looking back I guess it was a little reckles for a then relatively low hours PPL (150ish at the time).
Great place though, very welcoming, spectacular and fantastic flying - got to be done. Definately do the Las Vegas strip (although the air traffic control can be complex even when VFR), I concur that Grand Canyon is a must see. At GCI you need all that vast runway to take off with that density altitude. I also enjoyed Dagget/Barstow (for the sheer remoteness and novelty of the airconditioned shed that was the FBO) and Palm Springs - for the opposite end of the spectrum, "follow the 737 on final".
Fabulous flying, all UK pilots should try it. But be careful!
Sparky Meeson's book on Mountain Flying is worth a read before you go too.
- Andy.
Looking back I guess it was a little reckles for a then relatively low hours PPL (150ish at the time).
Great place though, very welcoming, spectacular and fantastic flying - got to be done. Definately do the Las Vegas strip (although the air traffic control can be complex even when VFR), I concur that Grand Canyon is a must see. At GCI you need all that vast runway to take off with that density altitude. I also enjoyed Dagget/Barstow (for the sheer remoteness and novelty of the airconditioned shed that was the FBO) and Palm Springs - for the opposite end of the spectrum, "follow the 737 on final".
Fabulous flying, all UK pilots should try it. But be careful!
Sparky Meeson's book on Mountain Flying is worth a read before you go too.
- Andy.
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Mountain Flying:
On the other Sedona thread it appears to be believed that if the runway is long enough then there if not much else you need to worry about.
WRONG
All the runway provides is a nice flat piece of land where you can pick up some nice speed, hopefully above the speed which your wings will produce enough lift to get you out of ground effect. Then when you get out of ground effect you have to climb enough to get over the huge lump of rock a few miles off the departure end of the runway. Try and bank and you suddenly use some precious lift to turn, less of it to climb, and you start going down.
What counts in the mountains is CLIMB GRADIENT. How many feet will you climb in a mile, not in a minute. How will downdrafts affect your climb gradient? Who knows, and if you don't know you need to be careful.
How does this apply to Sedona? Plenty of downdrafts, and plenty of mountains within ten miles and two thousand feet above the runway. Be careful out there, look at the NTSB reports for Sedona and learn.
Still a great place to fly, and no reason why even a student shouldn't go to Sedona there on a solo cross country if he has been properly trained and briefed
On the other Sedona thread it appears to be believed that if the runway is long enough then there if not much else you need to worry about.
WRONG
All the runway provides is a nice flat piece of land where you can pick up some nice speed, hopefully above the speed which your wings will produce enough lift to get you out of ground effect. Then when you get out of ground effect you have to climb enough to get over the huge lump of rock a few miles off the departure end of the runway. Try and bank and you suddenly use some precious lift to turn, less of it to climb, and you start going down.
What counts in the mountains is CLIMB GRADIENT. How many feet will you climb in a mile, not in a minute. How will downdrafts affect your climb gradient? Who knows, and if you don't know you need to be careful.
How does this apply to Sedona? Plenty of downdrafts, and plenty of mountains within ten miles and two thousand feet above the runway. Be careful out there, look at the NTSB reports for Sedona and learn.
Still a great place to fly, and no reason why even a student shouldn't go to Sedona there on a solo cross country if he has been properly trained and briefed
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Sorry but I'm having real trouble remembering the huge lump of rock off the departure end of 21. The way I remember it, and forgive me because I don't have a map here, the ground drops away on all sides. If you depart off 03, its pretty obvious that you are not just going to point the aircraft at the mountain and hope to get over it.
Which is why I get concerned about the comments which are sometimes made about Sedona (though in fact having now done a search, I find almost all of the cautionary ones in the last year or two have been from Slim Slag). Don't be put off. Take care but don't be a woos.
I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I ventured to Sedona on my last US flying trip, would have put me off!
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Far Aim,
RWY 21 has a published SID for obstacle clearance! Sounds like the FAA is a bit more woosey than you. Guess they haven't been there, er, THREE TIMES!!! lol
Anybody is free to ignore me here, and same for you. My vested interest in letting flatlanders from the UK know that Sedona is a great place to visit, but treat it with respect, is because I go there a lot and am sick and tired of other pilots trying to kill me. Sorry, but there you go.
I also know one of the pilots who made it into the NSTB statistics. Good pilot, been there more than three times, messed up, paid the price. If he had only take some advice I posted here some time ago (and for which I got pilloried, that was a fun thread) he would have got away with it.
Have fun, only seven more visits and you are in double figures!!!
RWY 21 has a published SID for obstacle clearance! Sounds like the FAA is a bit more woosey than you. Guess they haven't been there, er, THREE TIMES!!! lol
Anybody is free to ignore me here, and same for you. My vested interest in letting flatlanders from the UK know that Sedona is a great place to visit, but treat it with respect, is because I go there a lot and am sick and tired of other pilots trying to kill me. Sorry, but there you go.
I also know one of the pilots who made it into the NSTB statistics. Good pilot, been there more than three times, messed up, paid the price. If he had only take some advice I posted here some time ago (and for which I got pilloried, that was a fun thread) he would have got away with it.
Have fun, only seven more visits and you are in double figures!!!
