The Impossible Dream
Thread Starter
The Impossible Dream
I've searched and searched but cannot find an aeroplane that does the following in no particular order:
1. Seats 2 people in reasonable comfort
2. Has folding wings so I can save my extortionate hangerage
3. Is a taildragger
4. Cruises at around 100mph / 85 knts
5. Can do basic aerobatics
6. Isn't powered by a screaming two stroke engine
7. Has an endurance of around 2-3 hours
and now the killer punch
8. Costs around £15,0000.
Any suggestions peeps?
PS The basic aeros bit is really a nice to have rather than a must have
1. Seats 2 people in reasonable comfort
2. Has folding wings so I can save my extortionate hangerage
3. Is a taildragger
4. Cruises at around 100mph / 85 knts
5. Can do basic aerobatics
6. Isn't powered by a screaming two stroke engine
7. Has an endurance of around 2-3 hours
and now the killer punch
8. Costs around £15,0000.
Any suggestions peeps?
PS The basic aeros bit is really a nice to have rather than a must have
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Mustang 11
But the cruise is up to 180 plus I think.
Choice is removeable wings OR areobatics. It is said that the wings are just as strong but there is concern that they might not be re-assembled properly. Don't know how that works.
2 seat
Taildragger.
costa bit more than 15,000GBP unless you build from plans and scrounge for engine etc. but in theory it could be done.
But the cruise is up to 180 plus I think.
Choice is removeable wings OR areobatics. It is said that the wings are just as strong but there is concern that they might not be re-assembled properly. Don't know how that works.
2 seat
Taildragger.
costa bit more than 15,000GBP unless you build from plans and scrounge for engine etc. but in theory it could be done.
Thread Starter
ChrisVJ who makes the Mustang II? Is it available as a kit as well as plans built?
A bit of Googling answered the questions thanks. It looks like a lovely little aeroplane that fits my ideal perfectly (I'm prepared to compromise on the cost of a kit as it can be spread over a period). Now to find out if it's approved by the PFA in the UK. BEt it isn't
A bit of Googling answered the questions thanks. It looks like a lovely little aeroplane that fits my ideal perfectly (I'm prepared to compromise on the cost of a kit as it can be spread over a period). Now to find out if it's approved by the PFA in the UK. BEt it isn't
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Had a look at a Rans S10....
But doesn't meet criteria (2). Nor did the one I looked at meet criteria (6). However the 4 stroke Rotax is often fitted and its a fairly simple job to replace the engine I'm lead to believe. With the 4 stroke fitted, it should cruise at 90-100kts, with a good range.
Nice aircraft, a mini Extra 300, +9g / -6g ultimate, aerobatic with an inverted fuel system fitted, 2 seats, taildragger with excellent short field. Can be a bit of a handful though due to its inherrent instability.
Available for under £10,000.
EA
But doesn't meet criteria (2). Nor did the one I looked at meet criteria (6). However the 4 stroke Rotax is often fitted and its a fairly simple job to replace the engine I'm lead to believe. With the 4 stroke fitted, it should cruise at 90-100kts, with a good range.
Nice aircraft, a mini Extra 300, +9g / -6g ultimate, aerobatic with an inverted fuel system fitted, 2 seats, taildragger with excellent short field. Can be a bit of a handful though due to its inherrent instability.
Available for under £10,000.
EA
The Original Whirly
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Well, I could be wrong, and I don't think you'll like it anyway, but....
Don't they do a tail-wheel version of the C152 aerobat? You don't need folding wings; it can live outside. Not sure of cost, but would have thought it would be around that.
But what do I know? I'm a helicopter pilot.
(Whirly hides and prepares to be shouted down for her ignorance of things with non-whirly wings!
)
Don't they do a tail-wheel version of the C152 aerobat? You don't need folding wings; it can live outside. Not sure of cost, but would have thought it would be around that.
But what do I know? I'm a helicopter pilot.
(Whirly hides and prepares to be shouted down for her ignorance of things with non-whirly wings!
)
Thread Starter
englishal I've looked at the S-10 and could fit the bill apart from the all important folding wing.
Whirly Same goes for the Aerobat. Outside living is precluded by the loval diddycoys (gipsies) who will nick the fuel, knocking aerials etc off in the process.
I've checked the PFA website and guess what? The Midget Mustang is listed under Bushby Midget Mustang and so is the Mustang II.
Whirly Same goes for the Aerobat. Outside living is precluded by the loval diddycoys (gipsies) who will nick the fuel, knocking aerials etc off in the process.
I've checked the PFA website and guess what? The Midget Mustang is listed under Bushby Midget Mustang and so is the Mustang II.
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Excluding the aerobatics and the price the Europa will do all the rest. You can fit a conventional TW undercarriage if you do not like the mono. Plenty of slightly bent ones about at good money, but more like 20k than 15.
It is aerobatic, but not in the UK.
Rod1
It is aerobatic, but not in the UK.
Rod1
Thread Starter
Rod1 I must admit to being dubious about buying "slightly bent" glassfibre structures. Steel tube and fabric or aluminium no problem, secondary damage is relatively easy to spot but glassfibre could be hiding all sorts of hidden stress build ups. Please, correct me if this is cobblers.
How easy are the Europa's wings to de-rig?
How easy are the Europa's wings to de-rig?
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LowNSlow.
The last time I looked the Mustang ll was "Under survey"
I mentioned to the PFA about the IBIS a few years ago. Very cheap 'n easy to build. VW powered, two seat tandem canard. That is still "Under survey" although there are a few flying as close as France, so unless something changes quick, don't hold yer breath over the Mustang ll...
I also looked at the Rand KR2S. Ok except the PFA wont let it fly as a 2 seater, and they do not allow 'wet wings'.
Any communication with the engineering side will just bring back "Build a Jodel or a Menestralle", both of which are quite expensive to build and the Jodel spar is 'Interesting' to say the least, with that great crank in it.
Plans built 'Home brew' is the only way I will be getting my ass in the air regularly, being retired and on fixed income...
I spent more on Club membership last year than I did on actually defying gravity.
Good luck with the search.
TJ
The last time I looked the Mustang ll was "Under survey"
I mentioned to the PFA about the IBIS a few years ago. Very cheap 'n easy to build. VW powered, two seat tandem canard. That is still "Under survey" although there are a few flying as close as France, so unless something changes quick, don't hold yer breath over the Mustang ll...
I also looked at the Rand KR2S. Ok except the PFA wont let it fly as a 2 seater, and they do not allow 'wet wings'.
Any communication with the engineering side will just bring back "Build a Jodel or a Menestralle", both of which are quite expensive to build and the Jodel spar is 'Interesting' to say the least, with that great crank in it.
Plans built 'Home brew' is the only way I will be getting my ass in the air regularly, being retired and on fixed income...
I spent more on Club membership last year than I did on actually defying gravity.
Good luck with the search.
TJ
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LnS
Impossible dream: If you find one will you let me know, all those lovely attributes for a mere £15,000? I've wanted something like that for eons....
Can't think of anything like that, but a solution might be to go into a syndicate, e.g. a CAP10. At the end of the day it may come up with your needs for a similar outlay. Not in a group, but I believe there are some good ones out there.
Or why not offer a sole owner of such a nice type, to pay their overheads (insurance, hangarage) for access to their aeroplane? Might not be as daft as it sounds. Or get an Emeraude on the French register, then you can aerobat, but not in G-reg!!
Good luck with your hunting
Cheers H
Impossible dream: If you find one will you let me know, all those lovely attributes for a mere £15,000? I've wanted something like that for eons....
Can't think of anything like that, but a solution might be to go into a syndicate, e.g. a CAP10. At the end of the day it may come up with your needs for a similar outlay. Not in a group, but I believe there are some good ones out there.
Or why not offer a sole owner of such a nice type, to pay their overheads (insurance, hangarage) for access to their aeroplane? Might not be as daft as it sounds. Or get an Emeraude on the French register, then you can aerobat, but not in G-reg!!
Good luck with your hunting
Cheers H
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LowNSlow
There's a Rans S6 912 on Afors at the moment. Its a nosewheel, so add £500 to convert it to taildragger format.
Not aerobatic in the UK, but a damn fine aircraft and a 80hp 4 stroke too. Not far off budget and won't take a year to build ( and then another year to get a permit issued).
Has folding wings too.
No connection with the seller, etc
There's a Rans S6 912 on Afors at the moment. Its a nosewheel, so add £500 to convert it to taildragger format.
Not aerobatic in the UK, but a damn fine aircraft and a 80hp 4 stroke too. Not far off budget and won't take a year to build ( and then another year to get a permit issued).
Has folding wings too.
No connection with the seller, etc
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How easy are the Europa's wings to de-rig?
The Factory used to recon 5 min, but from watching some of the locals do it you can rig or de rig solo in 15 min easily, 10 or less with help.
On the structure, if you get it inspected by the right people it would not be a problem. Most are bent going of the side of the runway at relatively low speed.
The fuel bill alone shoed make it attractive as you are talking 16lph at 115-120k
Rod1
The Factory used to recon 5 min, but from watching some of the locals do it you can rig or de rig solo in 15 min easily, 10 or less with help.
On the structure, if you get it inspected by the right people it would not be a problem. Most are bent going of the side of the runway at relatively low speed.
The fuel bill alone shoed make it attractive as you are talking 16lph at 115-120k
Rod1
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LnS,
How about a DH60
? Admittedly it may only meet No 1 during summer, and I'm not too sure about No 7. The downside is I doubt you'd find a decent one for £15,000
At the opposite end of the scale how about one of Ghengis's favorites: the Easy Raider, or the Escapade . They aren't areobatic, but just about squeezes into the cost requirement, but you will have to build it!
Brooklands
How about a DH60
? Admittedly it may only meet No 1 during summer, and I'm not too sure about No 7. The downside is I doubt you'd find a decent one for £15,000At the opposite end of the scale how about one of Ghengis's favorites: the Easy Raider, or the Escapade . They aren't areobatic, but just about squeezes into the cost requirement, but you will have to build it!
Brooklands
Last edited by Brooklands; 19th Nov 2004 at 17:00.
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Low an Slow
Yes, the Bushby Mustang 11 is available as a kit when last I heard, though I don't think they do quick build or matched hole panels.
It was on my short list and will be next time. My main concern would be with build time and perhaps the 'laminar flow' style wing section. Otherwise I have heard it is an outstanding plane.
As they are a small company you may be able to arrange a partial kit, ie. Precut major parts and assemblies shipped but buy other material which you would have to cut and drill anyway, locally!
We have a couple of local dealers here for the RANS, some are equipped with the 912S engine and fly pretty well. My local Searey dealer does flight training on Rans too. Don't know how tey work out money wise though.
Yes, the Bushby Mustang 11 is available as a kit when last I heard, though I don't think they do quick build or matched hole panels.
It was on my short list and will be next time. My main concern would be with build time and perhaps the 'laminar flow' style wing section. Otherwise I have heard it is an outstanding plane.
As they are a small company you may be able to arrange a partial kit, ie. Precut major parts and assemblies shipped but buy other material which you would have to cut and drill anyway, locally!
We have a couple of local dealers here for the RANS, some are equipped with the 912S engine and fly pretty well. My local Searey dealer does flight training on Rans too. Don't know how tey work out money wise though.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies people. 
bar shaker the Sans S6 is a possibility
Rod1 The Europa, especially in it's original monowheel form, has always fascinated me. Any chance of swopping a whizz around in the Auster for a whizz about in a Europa anybody?
Brooklands I would love a Dh60. So much nicer than the Tiger Moth (in my eyes at least) but oh so expensive....
ChrisVJ I have heard that the Mustang II doesn't have the short field performance of a Vans RV partly due to the "laminar flow style" wing. They do fold though!! Apparently the PFA have issues with the undercarriage. Could be a long time before one gets built in the UK then. Shame, it looks like a lovely little aeroplane.
My Googling has brought another contender in the Avid Aerobat. I could put up with the 2-stroke engine while saving for a Rotax 912 or Jabiru. The Avid's do look quite small, would a 15 stone 6 footer fit in one comfortably? I've been told that I would but I have my doubts. Any offers of a flight as per the Europa?
bar shaker the Sans S6 is a possibility
Rod1 The Europa, especially in it's original monowheel form, has always fascinated me. Any chance of swopping a whizz around in the Auster for a whizz about in a Europa anybody?
Brooklands I would love a Dh60. So much nicer than the Tiger Moth (in my eyes at least) but oh so expensive....
ChrisVJ I have heard that the Mustang II doesn't have the short field performance of a Vans RV partly due to the "laminar flow style" wing. They do fold though!! Apparently the PFA have issues with the undercarriage. Could be a long time before one gets built in the UK then. Shame, it looks like a lovely little aeroplane.
My Googling has brought another contender in the Avid Aerobat. I could put up with the 2-stroke engine while saving for a Rotax 912 or Jabiru. The Avid's do look quite small, would a 15 stone 6 footer fit in one comfortably? I've been told that I would but I have my doubts. Any offers of a flight as per the Europa?
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Hi Mate,
Of course what you really need is a DH 94 Moth Minor.
Then there is always my old Spezio Tuholer - don't believe the 'I'm a hero for mastering the beast' flight test.. a load of B***ocks!
Not folding wing... but how about a Typsy 'B' Trainer?
Kingy
Of course what you really need is a DH 94 Moth Minor.
Then there is always my old Spezio Tuholer - don't believe the 'I'm a hero for mastering the beast' flight test.. a load of B***ocks!
Not folding wing... but how about a Typsy 'B' Trainer?
Kingy
Thread Starter
Hi Kingy the Spezio did cross my mind but the rigging / de-rigging process is more a beginning & end of season rather than beginning & end of flight process I seem to recall? That flight test didn't seem to gell with your experience of getting her in and out of an airfield with one uphill runway and one sloped runway with no problems.
I would love a Moth Minor.....
PS How's the FRED now?
I have just discovered that the Renegade Spirit biplane has detachable wings. Anybody out there with some experience of these?
I would love a Moth Minor.....
PS How's the FRED now?
I have just discovered that the Renegade Spirit biplane has detachable wings. Anybody out there with some experience of these?
viva Osh Vegas
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Don't know if it's possible to build them in the UK, but the Sonerai II meets most of your criteria.
http://www.greatplainsas.com/sonerai_ii.html
http://www.greatplainsas.com/sonerai_ii.html
Thread Starter
Cheers spifire the Sonerai II is a nice looking little aeroplane and it IS approved for constructio here by the PFA. It doesn't seem to be available as a kit however, rather a collection of parts that you have to weld together yourself. Time for some Googling.
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I don't know anything about its PFA approval status, but I suppose the Thorp T18 would be another option? It's very similar to the Mustang II, and a lot more airplane than the Sonerai II (which really is not a two-seater but rather a single seater that can handle a passenger for occasional short flights).