No RIS due too much traffic!
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Chilli,
I agree, but what about that aircraft that doesn't show on radar? How, under a RAS do you provide separation from that?
the ANO refers, section IV, 17 1 (a)
"Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with nay other aircraft."
I agree, but what about that aircraft that doesn't show on radar? How, under a RAS do you provide separation from that?
the ANO refers, section IV, 17 1 (a)
"Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with nay other aircraft."
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I think we're getting into semantics here, but to play the game further:
1) You can't avoid traffic you can't see, whether as an ATCO on radar or as a pilot. There's nothing you can do about it - it's just a fact of life. Those of us who do most of our work outside CAS have to come to terms with this and do the job as best we can.
2) How does an aircraft in cloud take all possible steps to avoid collisions - easy:
a) Flies in accordance with the IFR's; and;
b) (most relevant to this argument) He gets a RAS or RIS from an appropriate ATC unit (if available), and in the case of the RAS he is relying on them to provide the separation - in effect, he has transferred that responsibility.
If you refer to MATS pt 1 it's even accepted that there are possibilities (unseens or pop-ups) whereby standard separation may not be achieved. You just do the best you can and then wait for your licence to be suspended when the TCAS RA goes off
Want to swap jobs?
1) You can't avoid traffic you can't see, whether as an ATCO on radar or as a pilot. There's nothing you can do about it - it's just a fact of life. Those of us who do most of our work outside CAS have to come to terms with this and do the job as best we can.
2) How does an aircraft in cloud take all possible steps to avoid collisions - easy:
a) Flies in accordance with the IFR's; and;
b) (most relevant to this argument) He gets a RAS or RIS from an appropriate ATC unit (if available), and in the case of the RAS he is relying on them to provide the separation - in effect, he has transferred that responsibility.
If you refer to MATS pt 1 it's even accepted that there are possibilities (unseens or pop-ups) whereby standard separation may not be achieved. You just do the best you can and then wait for your licence to be suspended when the TCAS RA goes off
Want to swap jobs?
Avoid imitations
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It IS a fact that aircraft are obliged to fly in cloud without a radar service, it happens quite often. I'm not happy with the situation when it occurs and will try to change level to gain some sort of in flight visibility if at all practical. Sometimes it's not (icing conditions or airspace above, or terrain below. TCAS is of some help but not by any means the full answer, as indeed a radar service isn't the full answer in class G.
I always try to tell folks how valuable Mode C is. If fitted, use it please - TCAS means I can avoid you and we are all safer.
As far as staying on the ground if it's cloudy? I wish!
I always try to tell folks how valuable Mode C is. If fitted, use it please - TCAS means I can avoid you and we are all safer.
As far as staying on the ground if it's cloudy? I wish!
Thread Starter
the ANO refers, section IV, 17 1 (a)
"Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft."....
and perhaps it could be argued that if the commander is unable to receive some sort of control service (radar, procedural in CAS) whilst flying in cloud then "all possible measures" includes taking another route, altitude/Flight Level or even not embarking on the flight!
ShyTorque, I know exactly where you are coming from since I have often been there myself and when you are flying for a living we have to make a professional "risk assessment" of the situation at the time....but once the action of flying in cloud without any radar cover becomes a president then I think we all need to take a rain check as to what it's all about.
I am NOT saying I would NEVER fly in cloud without radar but when it becomes a regular habit then we are stacking up the odds for something rather unpleasant! Also, in the litigous type of world we know seem to live in it's giving the lawyers plenty of ammunition should anything go wrong.
"Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft."....
and perhaps it could be argued that if the commander is unable to receive some sort of control service (radar, procedural in CAS) whilst flying in cloud then "all possible measures" includes taking another route, altitude/Flight Level or even not embarking on the flight!
ShyTorque, I know exactly where you are coming from since I have often been there myself and when you are flying for a living we have to make a professional "risk assessment" of the situation at the time....but once the action of flying in cloud without any radar cover becomes a president then I think we all need to take a rain check as to what it's all about.
I am NOT saying I would NEVER fly in cloud without radar but when it becomes a regular habit then we are stacking up the odds for something rather unpleasant! Also, in the litigous type of world we know seem to live in it's giving the lawyers plenty of ammunition should anything go wrong.
Avoid imitations
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Not an ideal world, there's not enough LARS units these days but I didn't say I do it routinely or without awareness of the situation! We carry TCAS for this reason.
However it's not practical to avoid flying because for example, Pennine Radar has been withdrawn (see recent NOTAMS) or to divert because Leeds Bradford can't offer a Zone transit or are too busy to offer Radar Information Service as you go around the edge of their airspace.
If we refused to fly because it was cloudy then we would be out of a job by lunchtime.
p.s. blame your father, I think he helped teach me
However it's not practical to avoid flying because for example, Pennine Radar has been withdrawn (see recent NOTAMS) or to divert because Leeds Bradford can't offer a Zone transit or are too busy to offer Radar Information Service as you go around the edge of their airspace.
If we refused to fly because it was cloudy then we would be out of a job by lunchtime.
p.s. blame your father, I think he helped teach me
Last edited by ShyTorque; 2nd Nov 2004 at 21:11.
and perhaps it could be argued that if the commander is unable to receive some sort of control service (radar, procedural in CAS) whilst flying in cloud then "all possible measures" includes taking another route, altitude/Flight Level or even not embarking on the flight!
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Its a big sky after all!!!
Shame that in this day and age of high technology, aircraft that can land themselves etc etc, people still have to resort to the big sky theory when flying IMC outside CAS!!
Shame that in this day and age of high technology, aircraft that can land themselves etc etc, people still have to resort to the big sky theory when flying IMC outside CAS!!
Thread Starter
>Surely that's much more appropriate to a "fine" summer's day than flying in cloud? The probablility of collision is dominated by traffic density: the risk is much higher on a VMC day with high traffic density than in cloud with much lower traffic density -- in fact I'm aware of no collisions in cloud in the UK at all.<
I wonder how many AirProxes have occured in cloud without either pilot being aware of getting close to another aircraft. Twice in my flying career I have heard the engines of another aircraft whilst flying in cloud!
At least when you are flying VMC (or not in cloud, say) you have a fighting chance of seeing another aircraft and avoiding it and generally the traffic density is higher now than it used to be even when flying IMC.
Just because we cannot recall a collision in cloud does not mean that it cannot occur.
Oh and by the way, Shy Torque, my father taught me too and he taught me never to go into cloud without radar!!
I wonder how many AirProxes have occured in cloud without either pilot being aware of getting close to another aircraft. Twice in my flying career I have heard the engines of another aircraft whilst flying in cloud!
At least when you are flying VMC (or not in cloud, say) you have a fighting chance of seeing another aircraft and avoiding it and generally the traffic density is higher now than it used to be even when flying IMC.
Just because we cannot recall a collision in cloud does not mean that it cannot occur.
Oh and by the way, Shy Torque, my father taught me too and he taught me never to go into cloud without radar!!
Avoid imitations
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Then best you stay out of cloud without radar, old chap. 
