Dangerous Gliders (again)
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Hello
Have followed this thread with interest.
I regularly fly from Haverfordwest to Gloucester through the Brecons. My weather comes from the Wendywindblows glider beacon at Blorenge. So I have good local weather conditions, and know when gliders are likely to be airborne on my route. I generally phone the glider clubs before t/off but seldom get a reply. So on route with transponder on, and FIS with London or Cardiff, and they confirming no known traffic. Abeam the first glider club I call them on the published glider frequencies 130.4 & 130.1, with no response. But the weather is good for gliding and I just know they are there somewhere. So a good lookout for gliders that are difficult to see at the best of times, that do not keep a listening watch on radio (don't even HAVE a radio!) who can't be seen by radar, and don't have a transponder. and who expect ME to see and give way to THEM! Sure enough just under a cloud ahead of me is a glider, and another glider! how many are there? impossible to know which way they are going. WHAT a nightmare, they are not talking to anyone, and I can't let them know I am there. No wonder glider pilots wear parachutes!
Seriously this situation is grotesque, all aircraft should carry and use a radio as the very minimum. To wander about the sky without any means of communication was fine in the 1930s but not in today's congested sky.
Sincerely
MG
Have followed this thread with interest.
I regularly fly from Haverfordwest to Gloucester through the Brecons. My weather comes from the Wendywindblows glider beacon at Blorenge. So I have good local weather conditions, and know when gliders are likely to be airborne on my route. I generally phone the glider clubs before t/off but seldom get a reply. So on route with transponder on, and FIS with London or Cardiff, and they confirming no known traffic. Abeam the first glider club I call them on the published glider frequencies 130.4 & 130.1, with no response. But the weather is good for gliding and I just know they are there somewhere. So a good lookout for gliders that are difficult to see at the best of times, that do not keep a listening watch on radio (don't even HAVE a radio!) who can't be seen by radar, and don't have a transponder. and who expect ME to see and give way to THEM! Sure enough just under a cloud ahead of me is a glider, and another glider! how many are there? impossible to know which way they are going. WHAT a nightmare, they are not talking to anyone, and I can't let them know I am there. No wonder glider pilots wear parachutes!
Seriously this situation is grotesque, all aircraft should carry and use a radio as the very minimum. To wander about the sky without any means of communication was fine in the 1930s but not in today's congested sky.
Sincerely
MG
MG
I fly power & gliders & can sympathise with you about spotting gliders even when they're nearby but there is little that can be done about that. As to calling on 130.4, it would be better to call on 129.975 as this is the air to groung frequency & probably the one that is selected more often than not (130.4 being used supposedly solely for cloud flying). Most gliders these days carry radios & are switched on but pilots don't make a habit of transmitting as it saves on precious battery power & avoids bunging up the overcrowded frequency. The reason there is no answer to your telephone calls is that probably everyones out flying if the weather is that good.
I fly power & gliders & can sympathise with you about spotting gliders even when they're nearby but there is little that can be done about that. As to calling on 130.4, it would be better to call on 129.975 as this is the air to groung frequency & probably the one that is selected more often than not (130.4 being used supposedly solely for cloud flying). Most gliders these days carry radios & are switched on but pilots don't make a habit of transmitting as it saves on precious battery power & avoids bunging up the overcrowded frequency. The reason there is no answer to your telephone calls is that probably everyones out flying if the weather is that good.
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Oh dear seems to me there's a lot of people on here seem to think the radio is good substitute for a decent lookout and airmanship.
To the guy who flys through the Brecons its nice to hear that Gliders not talking to you actually gets your head out of the cockpit and actually loking for other traffic, and its not Glider pilots who expect you to see and avoid them its air law that doe's that.
Really guys we all share the same sky, all encounter the same problems, whether I'm in a glider or a powered aeroplane, I still look out the window, lot of miltary traffic out there not talking on VHF, but I don't whinge about I lookout for it.
The Radio will not save you, see and avoid means exactly that, in the area where I fly, (southern england), there are a substantial amount of military helicopters, very few of which are talikng to a civilian ATC unit, a very busy GA Bizjet airfield again on a seperate frequency and a large commercial airport which like to drop its commercial traffic out of controlled airspace and into the open FIR along with one of the busiest Gliding sites in the country and a number of airfields where non radio PFA type powered aeroplanes and microlights fly from, and without one common frequency between us and sticking our heads out the window we normally avoid banging into one another, its not unsafe to operate in this manner.
One last thing flew from Fairoaks to Lasham once moving an aeroplane for for a maintanence organisation, had to go Lasham-Fairoaks pick up owner Fairoaks-Lasham, a pretty short trip, didn't bother speaking to anyone on L-F leg as vis not bad, picked up owner left Fairoaks, me flying owner right hand seat non-flying, I didn't want to talk to Farnborough, he insisted I did, so made initial call and was instantly put on standby, after a couple of minutes Farnborough put out the call "All staions All stations Farnborough ATC LARS cloising down due to intense controller workload", seems I was the straw that broke the camels back and forced to do it by the guy who didn't want to fly his own aeroplane, I could have just looked out the window operated see and avoid and left the service to those who really needed it.
To the guy who flys through the Brecons its nice to hear that Gliders not talking to you actually gets your head out of the cockpit and actually loking for other traffic, and its not Glider pilots who expect you to see and avoid them its air law that doe's that.
Really guys we all share the same sky, all encounter the same problems, whether I'm in a glider or a powered aeroplane, I still look out the window, lot of miltary traffic out there not talking on VHF, but I don't whinge about I lookout for it.
The Radio will not save you, see and avoid means exactly that, in the area where I fly, (southern england), there are a substantial amount of military helicopters, very few of which are talikng to a civilian ATC unit, a very busy GA Bizjet airfield again on a seperate frequency and a large commercial airport which like to drop its commercial traffic out of controlled airspace and into the open FIR along with one of the busiest Gliding sites in the country and a number of airfields where non radio PFA type powered aeroplanes and microlights fly from, and without one common frequency between us and sticking our heads out the window we normally avoid banging into one another, its not unsafe to operate in this manner.
One last thing flew from Fairoaks to Lasham once moving an aeroplane for for a maintanence organisation, had to go Lasham-Fairoaks pick up owner Fairoaks-Lasham, a pretty short trip, didn't bother speaking to anyone on L-F leg as vis not bad, picked up owner left Fairoaks, me flying owner right hand seat non-flying, I didn't want to talk to Farnborough, he insisted I did, so made initial call and was instantly put on standby, after a couple of minutes Farnborough put out the call "All staions All stations Farnborough ATC LARS cloising down due to intense controller workload", seems I was the straw that broke the camels back and forced to do it by the guy who didn't want to fly his own aeroplane, I could have just looked out the window operated see and avoid and left the service to those who really needed it.
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Hmm.. thanks guys
Its late afternoon, and I am returning home to Haverfordwest. My windscreen is spotlessly clean, but the sun is in my eyes and my lookout is seriously degraded. Cardiff has me on radar, they have no known traffic. I have reduced my cockpit workload to the asbsolute minimum to concentrate on looking out. How much chance do you think I might have to see & avoid a glider under such conditions?. And surely if the gliders and I were able to use the radio this risk would be much reduced?
For those who read French, the BEA (French accident investigation agency) have a most interesting report on the midairs for 1989 / 1999 and conclude that while a good lookout is essential, so also is efficient use of radio. Did you know that there is a blind spot in each eye, and it is essential to move your head when looking out.
MG
Its late afternoon, and I am returning home to Haverfordwest. My windscreen is spotlessly clean, but the sun is in my eyes and my lookout is seriously degraded. Cardiff has me on radar, they have no known traffic. I have reduced my cockpit workload to the asbsolute minimum to concentrate on looking out. How much chance do you think I might have to see & avoid a glider under such conditions?. And surely if the gliders and I were able to use the radio this risk would be much reduced?
For those who read French, the BEA (French accident investigation agency) have a most interesting report on the midairs for 1989 / 1999 and conclude that while a good lookout is essential, so also is efficient use of radio. Did you know that there is a blind spot in each eye, and it is essential to move your head when looking out.
MG
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And surely if the gliders and I were able to use the radio this risk would be much reduced?
Sure it would be reduced to a small degree, after all if you look through the mid air collisions between powered aircraft in this country a fair number were recieving a Lars service of some description right up to the point they failed to see each other.
Mr Godsell sugest you go and fly a Glider, look at life from a different perspective, get a feel of what your criticising, and don't fly into sun, be a good boy throw in a dog leg, airmanship and all that.
Course while your looking for that Glider that transmitted on the radio, one of those pesky Tornadoe's cold creep up on you, bugger me man there be planes everywhere.
As for the eye thing yeah I do know that and most glider pilots and I guess most power pilots are taught to move their heads around as part of their lookout, however I am having problems sucking eggs, you couldn't show me how to do that could you.
Like I said before, we are all sharing the same sky we share the same problems, were not that different and the reality is there are a lot of aircraft out there not just non radio that will not be on the same frequency as you, will not be known to the air traffic unit you are working and you will have to see and avoid.
Anyway enjoy your flying stay safe have fun, kinda bored with this now, but take up my suggestion to go to one of those Gliding sites and go fly a glider, expand your mind and capabilities.
Sure it would be reduced to a small degree, after all if you look through the mid air collisions between powered aircraft in this country a fair number were recieving a Lars service of some description right up to the point they failed to see each other.
Mr Godsell sugest you go and fly a Glider, look at life from a different perspective, get a feel of what your criticising, and don't fly into sun, be a good boy throw in a dog leg, airmanship and all that.
Course while your looking for that Glider that transmitted on the radio, one of those pesky Tornadoe's cold creep up on you, bugger me man there be planes everywhere.
As for the eye thing yeah I do know that and most glider pilots and I guess most power pilots are taught to move their heads around as part of their lookout, however I am having problems sucking eggs, you couldn't show me how to do that could you.
Like I said before, we are all sharing the same sky we share the same problems, were not that different and the reality is there are a lot of aircraft out there not just non radio that will not be on the same frequency as you, will not be known to the air traffic unit you are working and you will have to see and avoid.
Anyway enjoy your flying stay safe have fun, kinda bored with this now, but take up my suggestion to go to one of those Gliding sites and go fly a glider, expand your mind and capabilities.
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As has been pointed out, there are so many frequencies that in uncontrolled airspace, radios are of little or no use for collision avoidance purposes.
Another option for reducing the chance of collision would be to require the grounding of all cabin-type aircraft, on the basis that their design unduly restricts pilots' vision. Of course, that would eliminate all of the spam cans and airliners, leaving us with gliders, 'warbirds', and open cockpit biplanes. Hmmm ... now that I think of it, I could live with that!
Another option for reducing the chance of collision would be to require the grounding of all cabin-type aircraft, on the basis that their design unduly restricts pilots' vision. Of course, that would eliminate all of the spam cans and airliners, leaving us with gliders, 'warbirds', and open cockpit biplanes. Hmmm ... now that I think of it, I could live with that!
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"don't fly into sun, be a good boy throw in a dog leg, airmanship and all that."
So next time I'm flying my employer's £50 a minute machine full of passengers from Oxford to Cardiff anytime after lunch perhaps I should route via Exeter or East Midlands? Right, thanks for the advice, I'll give that the attention it deserves i.e. not a lot.
Consider the big picture. Some people are flying for reasons other than just for fun.
So next time I'm flying my employer's £50 a minute machine full of passengers from Oxford to Cardiff anytime after lunch perhaps I should route via Exeter or East Midlands? Right, thanks for the advice, I'll give that the attention it deserves i.e. not a lot.
Consider the big picture. Some people are flying for reasons other than just for fun.
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Alternating a couple of degrees left or right of the track that puts you into sun is all it takes after all we are talikng about flying under VFR here, and according to air law and not you, its your responsiblity to see and avoid gliders, so your not arguing with me your arging with air law, that said irrespective of the law, its in everybody's interest to see and take avoiding action.
Don't seem to remember suggesting routing via the Isle of man just using a bit of airmanship, a quality very lacking in fat dumb and happy world.
At Lasham the amount of times we have had 50 pound a minute aircraft go through are overhead at less than 3000ft agl,have a look on the chart I've lost count of, big picture and all that, As to ignoring not flying to sun which will drop your real vis down to that less than pescribed to less then that of VFR , I admire your honesty, suggest you paint aircraft red with white stripes and get one of those confederate air horns, and as for big picture again yeah I know there are people who fly not just for fun, nice to se you just caught up with the fact there are a hell of a lot more who fly for recreation.
Under VFR look up in air law what it says, then fly accordingly, it ain't hard, for some anyway,others seem to be struggling though.
As said we all share the same problems, were all in the same sky, we all operate under the same rules, although some people on here seem to choose different.
If you want controlled airspace you all know where to find its on the charts, go use it, if you want to fly VFR in the open FIR then do so stop confusing the two, use some common sense and find that thing called airmamship,would you really drive home in thick fog at 80mph, from this thread I'm judging some of you do.
But then I guess you got CB seperating you from other known traffic, fat dumb and happy world reigns supreme.
Having read the messages on this thread it would seem to suggest poor lookout and bad airmanship coupled with a lack of understanding of air law and how it affects you and other air users around you, is what actually leads to late sighting of gliders or for that matter anybody else, and I'm guessing the miltary don't fly for fun who just happen to be in the same peice of airspace as you, just not under any form of ATC service, as said before you want controlled airspace you know where to find it.
Don't seem to remember suggesting routing via the Isle of man just using a bit of airmanship, a quality very lacking in fat dumb and happy world.
At Lasham the amount of times we have had 50 pound a minute aircraft go through are overhead at less than 3000ft agl,have a look on the chart I've lost count of, big picture and all that, As to ignoring not flying to sun which will drop your real vis down to that less than pescribed to less then that of VFR , I admire your honesty, suggest you paint aircraft red with white stripes and get one of those confederate air horns, and as for big picture again yeah I know there are people who fly not just for fun, nice to se you just caught up with the fact there are a hell of a lot more who fly for recreation.
Under VFR look up in air law what it says, then fly accordingly, it ain't hard, for some anyway,others seem to be struggling though.
As said we all share the same problems, were all in the same sky, we all operate under the same rules, although some people on here seem to choose different.
If you want controlled airspace you all know where to find its on the charts, go use it, if you want to fly VFR in the open FIR then do so stop confusing the two, use some common sense and find that thing called airmamship,would you really drive home in thick fog at 80mph, from this thread I'm judging some of you do.
But then I guess you got CB seperating you from other known traffic, fat dumb and happy world reigns supreme.
Having read the messages on this thread it would seem to suggest poor lookout and bad airmanship coupled with a lack of understanding of air law and how it affects you and other air users around you, is what actually leads to late sighting of gliders or for that matter anybody else, and I'm guessing the miltary don't fly for fun who just happen to be in the same peice of airspace as you, just not under any form of ATC service, as said before you want controlled airspace you know where to find it.
Sure it would be reduced to a small degree, after all if you look through the mid air collisions between powered aircraft in this country a fair number were recieving a Lars service of some description right up to the point they failed to see each other.
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Dirty sanchez thanks for that, and yeah your right, I have to say that when it comes to spelling, punctuation and so on I'm pretty crap, so excuse my smelling pisstakes, I just can't help it.
That said one incident of a mid air betwen two aircraft using an ATC service requested, so heres one
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_500580.hcsp
And thanks for that strangely it made me smile, far from flaming I think his comments were probably the most factually correct in this entire thread.
For those of you bored with this now
javascript:ol('http://www.jokefrog.com/flash/splash-baby.shtml');
That said one incident of a mid air betwen two aircraft using an ATC service requested, so heres one
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_500580.hcsp
And thanks for that strangely it made me smile, far from flaming I think his comments were probably the most factually correct in this entire thread.
For those of you bored with this now
javascript:ol('http://www.jokefrog.com/flash/splash-baby.shtml');
Last edited by Tugpilotsmiffy; 10th Dec 2004 at 16:28.
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Tugpilotsmiffy,
Thanks for the second in your series of lectures to other pilots. You are obviously a fine instructor. I don't know how I've managed so far without you, but, starting from right now I'm going to try to do so.
Thanks for the second in your series of lectures to other pilots. You are obviously a fine instructor. I don't know how I've managed so far without you, but, starting from right now I'm going to try to do so.
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Having spent a little time analysing Tugpilotsmiffy's unique prose, I do find myself in sympathy on one point.
And that point, ShyTorque, is that your employer choose to route your aircraft through uncontrolled airspace, which undoubtedly increases the risk profile of the flight.
To completely dismiss airmanship due to commercial reasons is both uncommercial and, in my opinion, unethical.
Your aeroplane may cost £50 per minute to operate, but how much does a middair cost your company? Some companies have been taken down by such incidents.
Furthermore, what about the responsibility to the pax of reducing the risk to reasonable proportions?
I note in your posts, many of which are well argued based on deep experience and an obvious passion for aviation, that you tend to adopt an absolute position. I really think that you would do well to reflect on the perils of taking that view, in this particlar context.
And that point, ShyTorque, is that your employer choose to route your aircraft through uncontrolled airspace, which undoubtedly increases the risk profile of the flight.
To completely dismiss airmanship due to commercial reasons is both uncommercial and, in my opinion, unethical.
Your aeroplane may cost £50 per minute to operate, but how much does a middair cost your company? Some companies have been taken down by such incidents.
Furthermore, what about the responsibility to the pax of reducing the risk to reasonable proportions?
I note in your posts, many of which are well argued based on deep experience and an obvious passion for aviation, that you tend to adopt an absolute position. I really think that you would do well to reflect on the perils of taking that view, in this particlar context.
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FTG,
You said "To completely dismiss airmanship due to commercial reasons is both uncommercial and, in my opinion, unethical..."
Absolute bigoted rubbish. You have NO idea of my level of airmanship, especially my standard of lookout. You aren't qualified to make a statement like that unless you have at least flown with me.
"And that point, ShyTorque, is that your employer choose to route your aircraft through uncontrolled airspace, which undoubtedly increases the risk profile of the flight."
If you are intimating that Class G should be the absolute domain of recreational flyers and everything else should be protected by controlled airspace, you have little understanding of general aviation in UK.
You said "To completely dismiss airmanship due to commercial reasons is both uncommercial and, in my opinion, unethical..."
Absolute bigoted rubbish. You have NO idea of my level of airmanship, especially my standard of lookout. You aren't qualified to make a statement like that unless you have at least flown with me.
"And that point, ShyTorque, is that your employer choose to route your aircraft through uncontrolled airspace, which undoubtedly increases the risk profile of the flight."
If you are intimating that Class G should be the absolute domain of recreational flyers and everything else should be protected by controlled airspace, you have little understanding of general aviation in UK.
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ShyTorque
Please look at the following extracts from the exchange following...
Tugpilotsmiffy
don't fly into sun, be a good boy throw in a dog leg, airmanship and all that.
ShyTorque
So next time I'm flying my employer's £50 a minute machine full of passengers from Oxford to Cardiff anytime after lunch perhaps I should route via Exeter or East Midlands? Right, thanks for the advice, I'll give that the attention it deserves i.e. not a lot.
Consider the big picture. Some people are flying for reasons other than just for fun.
Tugpilotsmiffy,
Alternating a couple of degrees left or right of the track that puts you into sun is all it takes
ShyTorque
Thanks for the second in your series of lectures to other pilots. You are obviously a fine instructor. I don't know how I've managed so far without you, but, starting from right now I'm going to try to do so.
So I am talking absolute bigoted rubbish am I? To be honest, your comments in the exchange above read as polemic to me.
I found the original posters comments to be quite inflammatory in nature, so perhaps your response was driven by emotional reaction.
Let me also clarify that I do not believe that you would dismiss airmanship in the operational environment, so I am only commenting on what you said in the thread.
I am not suggesting that uncontrolled airspace is the absolute domain of anybody, but I am suggesting that it has a higher risk profile than controlled airspace, especially when mixed traffic is operating under a variety of services (or none for that matter). If you, as an ATPL, disagree, then you can quite validly say that your qualifications are greater than mine and you disagree, at which point I will then quote the ATPL IRE TREs who helped me form my opinion when I worked for a major airline (in a business role) and was lucky enough to undertake a significant number of LOFT hours in a full motion sim. The ATPL, line training captain who lives next door has also expressed similar opinions.
Over to you. By the way, I see no reason for calling you any unpleasant names, I do find your point of view on different threads to be interesting and informative, even if it differs from mine sometimes (although there are many more points where I agree with you) - can we keep the debate reasonable in tone?
Please look at the following extracts from the exchange following...
Tugpilotsmiffy
don't fly into sun, be a good boy throw in a dog leg, airmanship and all that.
ShyTorque
So next time I'm flying my employer's £50 a minute machine full of passengers from Oxford to Cardiff anytime after lunch perhaps I should route via Exeter or East Midlands? Right, thanks for the advice, I'll give that the attention it deserves i.e. not a lot.
Consider the big picture. Some people are flying for reasons other than just for fun.
Tugpilotsmiffy,
Alternating a couple of degrees left or right of the track that puts you into sun is all it takes
ShyTorque
Thanks for the second in your series of lectures to other pilots. You are obviously a fine instructor. I don't know how I've managed so far without you, but, starting from right now I'm going to try to do so.
So I am talking absolute bigoted rubbish am I? To be honest, your comments in the exchange above read as polemic to me.
I found the original posters comments to be quite inflammatory in nature, so perhaps your response was driven by emotional reaction.
Let me also clarify that I do not believe that you would dismiss airmanship in the operational environment, so I am only commenting on what you said in the thread.
I am not suggesting that uncontrolled airspace is the absolute domain of anybody, but I am suggesting that it has a higher risk profile than controlled airspace, especially when mixed traffic is operating under a variety of services (or none for that matter). If you, as an ATPL, disagree, then you can quite validly say that your qualifications are greater than mine and you disagree, at which point I will then quote the ATPL IRE TREs who helped me form my opinion when I worked for a major airline (in a business role) and was lucky enough to undertake a significant number of LOFT hours in a full motion sim. The ATPL, line training captain who lives next door has also expressed similar opinions.
Over to you. By the way, I see no reason for calling you any unpleasant names, I do find your point of view on different threads to be interesting and informative, even if it differs from mine sometimes (although there are many more points where I agree with you) - can we keep the debate reasonable in tone?
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F3G,
I suggest you re-read TPS's posts again. They are full of vitriol.
Emotional? Me? No, not really, my responses on this thread are as much of a wind up as anything. However, I do sometimes get rather exasperated by folk with limited experience spouting off with a holier than thou attitude as if they are the only one with a right to be in the sky or having an understanding the rules of the air.
I really don't think the sky is full of "fat, dumb and happy" pilots blundering along in a straight line, head in cockpit, expecting ATC to keep them safe in class G airspace; if there such pilots then I certainly am NOT one of them - but some posters on here would prefer to believe that this the case. The real problem with gliders is that the human eye has trouble picking them up against the background, as I said in an earlier post.
Perhaps it would help if I state my view, based on experience rather than emotion, in more detail?
Firstly, LOOKOUT has always been and remains the prime means of avoiding an airborne collision in VMC, irrespective of the type of airspace or ATC service provided.... PERIOD!
Knowledge, experience and common sense coupled with effective, sensible flight planning, can help to avoid possible high risk areas, such as published GLIDER SITES. En route, recognition of "glider magnet" clouds or terrain is a very good idea, and I certainly do this when appropriate. (I used to glide a little - went solo at 15, that's how I started in this business - over 30 years ago now - I do understand them to some extent).
ATC (LARS or a local unit in it's absence) can assist greatly to locate SOME possible conflicts. ATC services have limitations, due to poor radar performance (or lack of radar), weather, terrain and at times human limitations such as high workload. ATC can SOMETIMES give warning of gliders, due to a fleeting appearance on radar, often they don't. Glider pilots don't often talk to ATC and they seldom (if ever?) carry a transponder. Our company SOPs require us to obtain at least a FIS, or a RIS if available and we do so. Doesn't make us want to stop looking out of the window.
TCAS is also of great asssistance. Not only does it display the presence of transponding aircraft i.e. SOME possible conflicts, it verbally warns pilots of an enhanced proximity risk, especially if another aircraft changes its flightpath. When used correctly, as part of a lookout scan, it reminds us just how many aircraft there are out there. One thing this particular piece of equipment does is to remind pilots to LOOKOUT, converse to the opinion of some who think pilots of so equipped aircraft neglect the basics of airmanship.
We fly two pilots, eye tested iaw the CAA requirements every six months in my case, (still 6/5 vision) but we do realise we can't see 'em all out there. We do occasionally get ATC or TCAS alerted targets that we can't locate visually, usually due to lack of aircraft contrast against the background. If this happens and it's a possible conflict, we put on the forward facing searchlight and hope that helps the other aircraft to see US while we get some horizontal (oops, edit here, I meant to say VERTICAL separation, not horizontal - TCAS isn't too reliable in the hozontal plane). We also carry high intensity white strobes, these are always selected on in flight.
Finally, LOOKOUT has always been and remains the prime means of avoiding an airborne collision in VMC, irrespective of the type of airspace or ATC service provided.... PERIOD!
P.S. Did I mention LOOKOUT?
I suggest you re-read TPS's posts again. They are full of vitriol.
Emotional? Me? No, not really, my responses on this thread are as much of a wind up as anything. However, I do sometimes get rather exasperated by folk with limited experience spouting off with a holier than thou attitude as if they are the only one with a right to be in the sky or having an understanding the rules of the air.
I really don't think the sky is full of "fat, dumb and happy" pilots blundering along in a straight line, head in cockpit, expecting ATC to keep them safe in class G airspace; if there such pilots then I certainly am NOT one of them - but some posters on here would prefer to believe that this the case. The real problem with gliders is that the human eye has trouble picking them up against the background, as I said in an earlier post.
Perhaps it would help if I state my view, based on experience rather than emotion, in more detail?
Firstly, LOOKOUT has always been and remains the prime means of avoiding an airborne collision in VMC, irrespective of the type of airspace or ATC service provided.... PERIOD!
Knowledge, experience and common sense coupled with effective, sensible flight planning, can help to avoid possible high risk areas, such as published GLIDER SITES. En route, recognition of "glider magnet" clouds or terrain is a very good idea, and I certainly do this when appropriate. (I used to glide a little - went solo at 15, that's how I started in this business - over 30 years ago now - I do understand them to some extent).
ATC (LARS or a local unit in it's absence) can assist greatly to locate SOME possible conflicts. ATC services have limitations, due to poor radar performance (or lack of radar), weather, terrain and at times human limitations such as high workload. ATC can SOMETIMES give warning of gliders, due to a fleeting appearance on radar, often they don't. Glider pilots don't often talk to ATC and they seldom (if ever?) carry a transponder. Our company SOPs require us to obtain at least a FIS, or a RIS if available and we do so. Doesn't make us want to stop looking out of the window.
TCAS is also of great asssistance. Not only does it display the presence of transponding aircraft i.e. SOME possible conflicts, it verbally warns pilots of an enhanced proximity risk, especially if another aircraft changes its flightpath. When used correctly, as part of a lookout scan, it reminds us just how many aircraft there are out there. One thing this particular piece of equipment does is to remind pilots to LOOKOUT, converse to the opinion of some who think pilots of so equipped aircraft neglect the basics of airmanship.
We fly two pilots, eye tested iaw the CAA requirements every six months in my case, (still 6/5 vision) but we do realise we can't see 'em all out there. We do occasionally get ATC or TCAS alerted targets that we can't locate visually, usually due to lack of aircraft contrast against the background. If this happens and it's a possible conflict, we put on the forward facing searchlight and hope that helps the other aircraft to see US while we get some horizontal (oops, edit here, I meant to say VERTICAL separation, not horizontal - TCAS isn't too reliable in the hozontal plane). We also carry high intensity white strobes, these are always selected on in flight.
Finally, LOOKOUT has always been and remains the prime means of avoiding an airborne collision in VMC, irrespective of the type of airspace or ATC service provided.... PERIOD!
P.S. Did I mention LOOKOUT?
Last edited by ShyTorque; 11th Dec 2004 at 18:08.
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Knowledge, experience and common sense coupled with effective, sensible flight planning, can help to avoid possible high risk areas, such as published GLIDER SITES. En route, recognition of "glider magnet" clouds or terrain is a very good idea, and I certainly do this when appropriate. (I used to glide a little - went solo at 15, that's how I started in this business - over 30 years ago now - I do understand them to some extent).
So you do throw in dog legs then, whilst flight planning.
ATC (LARS or a local unit in it's absence) can assist greatly to locate SOME possible conflicts. ATC services have limitations, due to poor radar performance (or lack of radar), weather, terrain and at times human limitations such as high workload. ATC can SOMETIMES give warning of gliders, due to a fleeting appearance on radar, often they don't. Glider pilots don't often talk to ATC and they seldom (if ever?) carry a transponder. Our company SOPs require us to obtain at least a FIS, or a RIS if available and we do so. Doesn't make us want to stop looking out of the window.
A lot of Glider pilots don't hold RT licence's, those that do will use them if they feel the situation requires it, transitting controlled airspace, or operating close to active airfields, just out of courtesy, assuming as stated above they actually have an RT licence.
I'm sure the day is not too far away when transponders become light enough and don't use up too much energy to to make it impractical for glider pilots to make use of them.
Never suggested ownership of the sky for anyone, I think what I said was we all share the same problems, and that includes Gliders, Light aircraft, Military guys, Commercial operators, Paragliders and so on, and if you choose to fly in in the open FIR you choose to except the rules that come with it and as for having a better understanding of the rules, again never suggested that, just established what the actual rule was, in practical terms in means very little, because quite often I adjust my track to avoid aeroplanes that never change theirs, so I guess they don't see me, and before I get accused of being holier that thou, I've had to make my apolgies to people that I either saw late or never saw at all.
Experience of what, as this thread is about dangerous gliders and how to see them and avoid them, my experience as the name would suggest, was as a Tugpilot and as such have somewhere in the region of about 8000 take offs and landings from glider sites, the majority from one glider site, where routinely we would have over one hundred gliders plus Tug aircraft all within a few miles radius of the site, so I developed a few ways of avoiding them, experience means little if it ain't relevant, and flying directly into sun wasn't one of them, I don't know how much my plane cost to operate, but I always judged my life as having a higher value.
I apologise to anybody who I may have offended didn't mean to, its just the way I write, which as can clearly be seen, is less then conventional and not that well put together or checked for errors, so for that I'm sorry, genuinely.
Anyway at least we agree on something Lookout.
You take care Shytorque, appreciate your viewpoint and comments.
So you do throw in dog legs then, whilst flight planning.
ATC (LARS or a local unit in it's absence) can assist greatly to locate SOME possible conflicts. ATC services have limitations, due to poor radar performance (or lack of radar), weather, terrain and at times human limitations such as high workload. ATC can SOMETIMES give warning of gliders, due to a fleeting appearance on radar, often they don't. Glider pilots don't often talk to ATC and they seldom (if ever?) carry a transponder. Our company SOPs require us to obtain at least a FIS, or a RIS if available and we do so. Doesn't make us want to stop looking out of the window.
A lot of Glider pilots don't hold RT licence's, those that do will use them if they feel the situation requires it, transitting controlled airspace, or operating close to active airfields, just out of courtesy, assuming as stated above they actually have an RT licence.
I'm sure the day is not too far away when transponders become light enough and don't use up too much energy to to make it impractical for glider pilots to make use of them.
Never suggested ownership of the sky for anyone, I think what I said was we all share the same problems, and that includes Gliders, Light aircraft, Military guys, Commercial operators, Paragliders and so on, and if you choose to fly in in the open FIR you choose to except the rules that come with it and as for having a better understanding of the rules, again never suggested that, just established what the actual rule was, in practical terms in means very little, because quite often I adjust my track to avoid aeroplanes that never change theirs, so I guess they don't see me, and before I get accused of being holier that thou, I've had to make my apolgies to people that I either saw late or never saw at all.
Experience of what, as this thread is about dangerous gliders and how to see them and avoid them, my experience as the name would suggest, was as a Tugpilot and as such have somewhere in the region of about 8000 take offs and landings from glider sites, the majority from one glider site, where routinely we would have over one hundred gliders plus Tug aircraft all within a few miles radius of the site, so I developed a few ways of avoiding them, experience means little if it ain't relevant, and flying directly into sun wasn't one of them, I don't know how much my plane cost to operate, but I always judged my life as having a higher value.
I apologise to anybody who I may have offended didn't mean to, its just the way I write, which as can clearly be seen, is less then conventional and not that well put together or checked for errors, so for that I'm sorry, genuinely.
Anyway at least we agree on something Lookout.
You take care Shytorque, appreciate your viewpoint and comments.