GPS Approaches
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: DNMM/UK
GPS Approaches
1. Are there any GPS approaches in the UK?
2. If there are, how common are they?
3. What is the general attitude towards GPS approaches from pilots, airports and the CAA?
I'm flying outside the UK at the moment that's why I'm asking.
Capt. M
2. If there are, how common are they?
3. What is the general attitude towards GPS approaches from pilots, airports and the CAA?
I'm flying outside the UK at the moment that's why I'm asking.
Capt. M
Thread Starter
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From: DNMM/UK
Quite sad actually, cos Canada (as long as many other countries) decided to get rid of NDBs withing the next two years. A lot of airports over there have GPS approaches.
I flown a few GPS approaches and they are straight forward.
I flown a few GPS approaches and they are straight forward.
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From: Oxford
If NDBs are to be withdrawn then clearly GA needs GPS to be approved for en-route navigation as well as approaches PDQ (or Galileo, I suppose!) - otherwise how do you navigate IFR (legally) outside CAS in e.g. the Gloucester/Shobdon/Welshpool area?
Tim
Tim
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From: London
how do you navigate IFR (legally) outside CAS in e.g. the Gloucester/Shobdon/Welshpool area
I don't think there's any requirement within the rules for enroute IFR (off airways at least) to use any ground based navigational aids. It always helps to know your position of course but its not a requirement as such.
Give me a GPS any day.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
AimFar, not sure you are correct there. As I recall it there is a requirement for being able to use radio aids on and off airways. I need to dig out the reference but I definatly recall an exam question on it. Off airways it is x number of miles.
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From: Anywhere
bose-x
Don't get confused between U.S and U.K regs - I know what you're thinking of here.
U.K - equipment requirements for IFR flight outside CAS do not require ANY radio nav aids to be carried - just compliance with the quadrantal and minimum height rules. (ANO sched 5 and associated articles)
U.S - you're thinking of the maximum distance between navaids that you should have which differs whether you are on or off published airways. (off airways - 80 nm below 18,000ft - AIM 5-1-7 (c)(3)(c))
Don't get confused between U.S and U.K regs - I know what you're thinking of here.
U.K - equipment requirements for IFR flight outside CAS do not require ANY radio nav aids to be carried - just compliance with the quadrantal and minimum height rules. (ANO sched 5 and associated articles)
U.S - you're thinking of the maximum distance between navaids that you should have which differs whether you are on or off published airways. (off airways - 80 nm below 18,000ft - AIM 5-1-7 (c)(3)(c))
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 13th October 2004 at 10:16.
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From: EuroGA.org
If there is an NDB at the FAF, which one flies over and the ADF needle swings around, what would they replace it with, short of a full GPS approach?
They could put in a VOR but those are a lot more expensive to run than NDBs.
They could put in a VOR but those are a lot more expensive to run than NDBs.
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From: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Just curious, is the UK CAA looking at SCAT-1 and LAAS installations at all? Would it be interesting for UK GA and commuter airfields you think?
(My employer just signed a deal for installations at 25 regional airfields, in a joint venture with Wideroe Airline)
(My employer just signed a deal for installations at 25 regional airfields, in a joint venture with Wideroe Airline)
Thread Starter
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From: DNMM/UK
I've come across two types of GPS approaches in my limited experience so far. There are GPS overlays for existing approches (NDB, VOR,....). Then there are stand alone GPS approaches, which only require a certified GPS reciever. These come in the same "T" shape. An 5nm intermediate section to the IAF 90Deg to the final approach track. The final approach segment consists of two 5nm legs, IAF-FAF and FAF to MAPt. They are very easy to fly since you don't have procedure turns or timing worry about. They are all the same shape. The neatest thing is that a few decent GPS units (e.g. Garmin 430) will even tell you when to turn to intercept the final approch track. You don't have to think too much about wind correction since your magnetic TRK is displayed on the GPS reciever.
In short any muppet who can hold ALT/HDG/SPD in IMC (just like me
) can fly a perfect GPS approach.
In short any muppet who can hold ALT/HDG/SPD in IMC (just like me
) can fly a perfect GPS approach.
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From: north of barlu
Hidden away deep in an AIC there is admision that GPS aproaches are leagal in UK registered aircraft provided the GPS in the aircraft has the aproach in the data base.
It is also my understanding that they have also approved an american airline to do GPS aproaches at LGW if the ILS is Inop due to the fact that this airline has not got ADF fitted !.
It is also my understanding that they have also approved an american airline to do GPS aproaches at LGW if the ILS is Inop due to the fact that this airline has not got ADF fitted !.
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From: EuroGA.org
Hidden away deep in an AIC there is admision that GPS aproaches are leagal in UK registered aircraft provided the GPS in the aircraft has the aproach in the data base
We could start another discussion on this... It is just like the IMCR minima being the IR minima increased to 500/600ft - most likely a CAA advisory thing but not law.On a UK private flight, one can do a DIY instrument approach in any way one wants to. A 100% GPS instrument approach is 100% legal, and a fair number of people do just that - they just don't talk about it.
If I had my own farm strip, with no nearby hills, I would do them too. But I would probably put up an NDB, activated by a SMS message and turning itself off after 20 mins
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From: Euroland
GPS approaches approved in the UK; and
UK Aircraft approved for GPS approaches
are two totally separate issues.
There are no GPS approaches approved in the UK.
There are plenty of UK aircraft with the required equipment and approved to make approved GPS approaches (where they are legally established - in countries other than the UK).
As for home-made approach..........since the lowest height legally allowedin IMC under IFR is 1000ft above all obstacles within 5nm of the aircraft...........there is little to be gained by using GPS over a VOR/DME some 20nm away or even some ndb/ndb crosscut.
"most likely a CAA advisory thing but not law."
Not law - but one would be reckelss to ignore the advice of the foremost UK safety authority and thereby cause accident and/or injury and/or endangerment.
Reckless operation / endangerment is clearly spely out in the law!
One of the probable reasons why the CAA are taking a cautious line with regard to GPS approaches is because one of their own was killed in a helicopter accident some years ago...........while the G reg helicopter was making a home-made GPS let-down in the UK!!!!!
Regards,
DFC
UK Aircraft approved for GPS approaches
are two totally separate issues.
There are no GPS approaches approved in the UK.
There are plenty of UK aircraft with the required equipment and approved to make approved GPS approaches (where they are legally established - in countries other than the UK).
As for home-made approach..........since the lowest height legally allowedin IMC under IFR is 1000ft above all obstacles within 5nm of the aircraft...........there is little to be gained by using GPS over a VOR/DME some 20nm away or even some ndb/ndb crosscut.
"most likely a CAA advisory thing but not law."
Not law - but one would be reckelss to ignore the advice of the foremost UK safety authority and thereby cause accident and/or injury and/or endangerment.
Reckless operation / endangerment is clearly spely out in the law!
One of the probable reasons why the CAA are taking a cautious line with regard to GPS approaches is because one of their own was killed in a helicopter accident some years ago...........while the G reg helicopter was making a home-made GPS let-down in the UK!!!!!
Regards,
DFC
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From: EuroGA.org
since the lowest height legally allowedin IMC under IFR is 1000ft above all obstacles within 5nm of the aircraft
As regards a helicopter crash, why isn't the USA covered in aircraft wreckage, caused wholly by people doing GPS approaches?
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GPS approaches coded into databases contain more than just a series of waypoints. The functionality of the receiver changes during the approach as well.
If you want to do a DIY approach, please make sure you do it solo to minimise trauma to all the families involved...
If you want to do a DIY approach, please make sure you do it solo to minimise trauma to all the families involved...
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From: North Wales
I think it's a bit sad that NDBs are going down the pan - I acctually like navigating on them.
Up here 'round Caernarfon EGCK we like using the radio wales transmitter (882Khz) as a bid NDB...Good fun telling friends we have special computer navigation - radio wales and the laws of radio physics.
But I suppose GPS is the way to go...
WF.
Up here 'round Caernarfon EGCK we like using the radio wales transmitter (882Khz) as a bid NDB...Good fun telling friends we have special computer navigation - radio wales and the laws of radio physics.
But I suppose GPS is the way to go...
WF.