Buying/Importing Aircraft
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Buying/Importing Aircraft
I am toying with the idea of the modular route to an ATPL, and am considering buying an aircraft to hour build on, as well as admittedly for the FUN factor
I have had a long fascination with the Christen Eagle and wondered if anyone has first hand knowledge of owning and operating such an aircraft, in terms of cost, and also difficulty to fly. I also like the look of the Vans range of aircraft. Hangarage is in short supply in my area so a metal aircraft may be a better bet in case it has to live outside. The majority of Eagles seem to be in the states so advice on the costs and practicality of importing one would be much appreciated. Could an imported aircraft become "G" registered in the UK?
I just think that rather than risk the huge sum of money on the integrated ATPL course, I could have more enjoyment doing it this way, and not be taking such a massive gamble. After all, if it did'nt work out, I would still have my Eagle!
Opinions most welcome,
MAB
I have had a long fascination with the Christen Eagle and wondered if anyone has first hand knowledge of owning and operating such an aircraft, in terms of cost, and also difficulty to fly. I also like the look of the Vans range of aircraft. Hangarage is in short supply in my area so a metal aircraft may be a better bet in case it has to live outside. The majority of Eagles seem to be in the states so advice on the costs and practicality of importing one would be much appreciated. Could an imported aircraft become "G" registered in the UK?I just think that rather than risk the huge sum of money on the integrated ATPL course, I could have more enjoyment doing it this way, and not be taking such a massive gamble. After all, if it did'nt work out, I would still have my Eagle!
Opinions most welcome,
MAB
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M A B
Drop me a line Mike if you are still interested in importing.
We have imported over 20 aircraft so far this year (see Pilot Magazine's article July 2004).
We have also imported a number of Pitts ( one arriving this week) and approx $ 500,000 worth of Vans aircraft.
As you are interested in the Eagle we can even put you in touch with the owners of one that we recently imported if thats any help to you ?
Cheers
www.bigmisters.co.uk
PS say that you have spoken on line to Big Mister and that your a member of Pprune doing your ATPL's and your Pprune handle.
Drop me a line Mike if you are still interested in importing.
We have imported over 20 aircraft so far this year (see Pilot Magazine's article July 2004).
We have also imported a number of Pitts ( one arriving this week) and approx $ 500,000 worth of Vans aircraft.
As you are interested in the Eagle we can even put you in touch with the owners of one that we recently imported if thats any help to you ?
Cheers
www.bigmisters.co.uk
PS say that you have spoken on line to Big Mister and that your a member of Pprune doing your ATPL's and your Pprune handle.
Last edited by BIG MISTER; 15th Sep 2004 at 10:37.
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Importing an Eagle
MAB,
In theory, importing an Eagle should be a pretty painless exercise. There are several Christen Eagle's on the UK CAA register. The majority are on a PFA permit but there may still be the odd one or two on a CAA permit!
The problem that may encounter is that when the aircraft arrives, it really is not what it purports to be and it will NOT be allowed onto the UK register as it is.
A stock Eagle built exactly to Frank Christen's plans and comprehensive manual will be absoultely fine and should pass muster. Any mods or design changes will need to be evaluated by PFA Engineering and you may then be required to provide stress analysis or return the aircraft to standard configuration. Both of these options are potentially expensive and time consuming.
There have been many imported aircraft over the years that now decorate hangar walls or are consigned to the scrap heap. It does really happen. It happened to the Suffolk businessman importing a Pitts Special in the July Pilot article that Big Mr refers to!
Having said that, that was no way the responsibility of Big Mr shipping and I can recommend them. They may even have brought in an Eagle very recently for a Ppruner who often visits this forum.
Caveat emptor. Best to have the aircraft checked out in the States by someone who really knows Eagles and will be able to immediately determine any deviation from the kit/drgs and excellent builders manual.
Stik
In theory, importing an Eagle should be a pretty painless exercise. There are several Christen Eagle's on the UK CAA register. The majority are on a PFA permit but there may still be the odd one or two on a CAA permit!
The problem that may encounter is that when the aircraft arrives, it really is not what it purports to be and it will NOT be allowed onto the UK register as it is.
A stock Eagle built exactly to Frank Christen's plans and comprehensive manual will be absoultely fine and should pass muster. Any mods or design changes will need to be evaluated by PFA Engineering and you may then be required to provide stress analysis or return the aircraft to standard configuration. Both of these options are potentially expensive and time consuming.
There have been many imported aircraft over the years that now decorate hangar walls or are consigned to the scrap heap. It does really happen. It happened to the Suffolk businessman importing a Pitts Special in the July Pilot article that Big Mr refers to!
Having said that, that was no way the responsibility of Big Mr shipping and I can recommend them. They may even have brought in an Eagle very recently for a Ppruner who often visits this forum.
Caveat emptor. Best to have the aircraft checked out in the States by someone who really knows Eagles and will be able to immediately determine any deviation from the kit/drgs and excellent builders manual.
Stik
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Wise words Stick - Thank you !
It pays to do your home work on these matters.
I was unaware of the Suffolk Pits problem that you mentioned.
Was it one of our imports ?
Is there anything that we can do to help ?
PS one thing that I would add that is most important INSURANCE !
Aircraft maybe stressed to +/- 9 G but they can and do get damaged. Thankfully it is'nt a common problem but as the Cayman Islands found out this week ' these things happen' !
That is why good Marine Cargo Insurance is a must
It pays to do your home work on these matters.
I was unaware of the Suffolk Pits problem that you mentioned.
Was it one of our imports ?
Is there anything that we can do to help ?
PS one thing that I would add that is most important INSURANCE !
Aircraft maybe stressed to +/- 9 G but they can and do get damaged. Thankfully it is'nt a common problem but as the Cayman Islands found out this week ' these things happen' !
That is why good Marine Cargo Insurance is a must
Last edited by BIG MISTER; 15th Sep 2004 at 11:04.
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MAB
Experience all depends on what you have currently! I have flown the Eagle but have far more time in the aeroplane that it was derived from. It is easier to fly than the S2A as the vis is better on landing but the zero dihedral lower wings mean that the tips can get pretty close to the ground in strong cross-winds. Aeros are perhaps too easy! A couple of things that I recall from the one I flew, it had no altimeter in the back and on my own I couldn't adjust the one in the front!
Cost - if you were to work on £1800 a year insurance
Permitting - £150 plus inspector cost of, say £100
Hangarage in yr area -
Fuel/oil - 40lts/hr and 18pints oil every 25/hrs
then you'd not be far offthe mark.
You ought to think about an engine fund and you'll need cash for contingencies - dead alternator/starter bendix, etc.
Stik
I'll pm you my batphone number if you want more info.
Experience all depends on what you have currently! I have flown the Eagle but have far more time in the aeroplane that it was derived from. It is easier to fly than the S2A as the vis is better on landing but the zero dihedral lower wings mean that the tips can get pretty close to the ground in strong cross-winds. Aeros are perhaps too easy! A couple of things that I recall from the one I flew, it had no altimeter in the back and on my own I couldn't adjust the one in the front!
Cost - if you were to work on £1800 a year insurance
Permitting - £150 plus inspector cost of, say £100
Hangarage in yr area -
Fuel/oil - 40lts/hr and 18pints oil every 25/hrs
then you'd not be far offthe mark.
You ought to think about an engine fund and you'll need cash for contingencies - dead alternator/starter bendix, etc.
Stik
I'll pm you my batphone number if you want more info.
I think that Stick gives a rather optimistic view where importation is concerned.
If you bring an N-registered aeroplane in, that holds a full CofA it should be relatively straightforward to move it onto the UK register. Even easier however is to get an FAA licence and fly it on the N-register here, something that is common and perfectly legal (although I'd have a word with somebody who has done it before, there are one or two pitfalls).
If it is operated in the US however as an "Experimental", which means it's homebuilt (legally, if not in reality) then there are all sorts of hurdles to bringing it in. It is possible - usually! - but frankly the time and cost of that will negate any advantages that you started with. I'd not recommend even attempting any import route with an "experimental" unless there was absolutely no other way to get an example that type (or something similar) into the UK.
G
If you bring an N-registered aeroplane in, that holds a full CofA it should be relatively straightforward to move it onto the UK register. Even easier however is to get an FAA licence and fly it on the N-register here, something that is common and perfectly legal (although I'd have a word with somebody who has done it before, there are one or two pitfalls).
If it is operated in the US however as an "Experimental", which means it's homebuilt (legally, if not in reality) then there are all sorts of hurdles to bringing it in. It is possible - usually! - but frankly the time and cost of that will negate any advantages that you started with. I'd not recommend even attempting any import route with an "experimental" unless there was absolutely no other way to get an example that type (or something similar) into the UK.
G
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My budget would be approx £40k to spend on the aircraft and operating costs, I hope would come in at under £8k per year. Do you think this is realistic or are aircraft of this type usually more financially draining? Do you think this is a good choice of aircraft, or would i be better putting my money into something different?
Cheers
MAB
Cheers
MAB
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Ghenghis - as you know the Eagle is GENERALLY built from a factory supplied kit and recent discussions with our mutual corpulent friend at PFA Eng suggested that stock Eagles would not be problematic.
I've been involved in two, single seat imported biplane experimentals from the US in the last year and all in all they were migrated onto the G register without any big issues.
MAB - I do know of a couple of single seat aircraft that will be available in the near future in the UK already to fly once you've paid for them. Neither are the two mentioned in the proceeding paragraph.
However - reading this thread from the top again, I don't really think that a taildragging, tube and fabric sports biplane is the tool of choice for serious hour building!
Stik
Stik
I've been involved in two, single seat imported biplane experimentals from the US in the last year and all in all they were migrated onto the G register without any big issues.
MAB - I do know of a couple of single seat aircraft that will be available in the near future in the UK already to fly once you've paid for them. Neither are the two mentioned in the proceeding paragraph.
However - reading this thread from the top again, I don't really think that a taildragging, tube and fabric sports biplane is the tool of choice for serious hour building!
Stik
Stik
Actually I didn't, I've never had occasion to do anything with an Eagle. But, as you say, if JT says it's okay, it probably is.
Mind you, if you want some fun hourbuilding, there are plenty of interesting British registered aeroplanes you could have and operate for that sort of money. Just to offer an instance, I was looking at AFORS the other day and came across this which will give you a fairly well equipped fast (130kn+) tourer for under £20k, that should give you at-least another 600 hours for the rest of your £40k and allow you to practice "airline type" long distance and procedural flying much better than in an aerobatic biplane.
G
Mind you, if you want some fun hourbuilding, there are plenty of interesting British registered aeroplanes you could have and operate for that sort of money. Just to offer an instance, I was looking at AFORS the other day and came across this which will give you a fairly well equipped fast (130kn+) tourer for under £20k, that should give you at-least another 600 hours for the rest of your £40k and allow you to practice "airline type" long distance and procedural flying much better than in an aerobatic biplane.
G
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I do appreciate that the Eagle would not be the ideal tool for hour building, but that boyhood dream keeps haunting me. I remember watching a documentary on TV about 15 years ago, maybe more, that featured the Eagle. Since then, I have been hooked! I also have a liking of sports motorcycles, and guess the Eagle is the Ducati of the sky!
Strikes me that you are in danger of paying a lot of money with the intention of becoming bored out of your skull in an airliner cockpit.
If your attitude is thus, join the Army Air Corps, move to Alaska and become a bush pilot, train to become an aerobatic instructor.... but you don't sound like somebody who is going to be happy in a 767.
G
Wouldn't enjoy being an airline pilot either.
If your attitude is thus, join the Army Air Corps, move to Alaska and become a bush pilot, train to become an aerobatic instructor.... but you don't sound like somebody who is going to be happy in a 767.
G
Wouldn't enjoy being an airline pilot either.
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Genghis, too old for the AAC, married with kids, and just wanting to take the most enjoyable route to a flying job. Maybe I will become smitten with flying for fun and forget the right hand seat job, who knows? The thought of shelling out for the integrated course at about £70k is, however, becoming less appealing by the day, especially when you think of how much fun I could be missing out on, and with the big chance of not getting a job at the end of it! Don't think I would be bored flying a biggie though.
Cheers,
MAB.
Cheers,
MAB.
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I'd certainly recommend doing some serious flying for fun - at least to the cost of a PPL + (say) 50hrs of touring in an aeroplane before expending on a costly integrated course. It won't cost you much more than a "from scratch" integrated, and will make you quite certain whether you enjoy flying enough.
G
G
MAB,
am the person BIGMISTER refers re bringing in an Eagle from USA. Cant speak high enough of BIGMISTER and service offered. I too can understand your desire for an eagle as been on my desire list for over 20 years. Have produced my own do's and don't list for importing another eagle based on experience with this one. email me at [email protected] if I can be any help whatsoever if thats what you decide to do
am the person BIGMISTER refers re bringing in an Eagle from USA. Cant speak high enough of BIGMISTER and service offered. I too can understand your desire for an eagle as been on my desire list for over 20 years. Have produced my own do's and don't list for importing another eagle based on experience with this one. email me at [email protected] if I can be any help whatsoever if thats what you decide to do
