Light Aircraft Down near Bournemouth

[shortstripper]

Croqueteer

You still miss my point by taking it out of context.

I wasn't suggesting "fly by feel" as you put it, and certainly not in true IMC. What I said was flight by judging your airspeed using any clues available ... the "feel" bit is just one of those clues.

The aircraft I regularly fly has no gyro instruments and a very dodgy ASI that we still haven't managed to get working properly. That said it has a very benign stall, is easy to interpret airspeed and only flies in VMC. However, I have flown gliders in IMC with no gyro instruments and have done an IMC which had a lot of emphasis put on instrument failures and the use of other instruments to cross referance. In VMC I have no worries at all about losing my ASI and in IMC I know I can cope with no ASI or gyro instruments ... It makes life very hard but a compass, rev counter, altimeter and VSI will suffice (i reckon I might be sweating a bit though )

Sure, if you want to be predantic ... of course attitude with no engine power (ie glide) = performance, as potential (or is t kinetic?) energy is the equivelent of power in the equasion, but you knew I meant that didn't you?

Cherry picking points out of posts to suit your aurgument is all very well, but if you don't keep to the context of that post you might as well just rewrite it to suit. Tell me ... if you have no horizon to see attitude and no instrument that clearly shows it (such as an AI) ... how do you fly the attitude part of your performance sums? I'd say you either go to peices or "judge" your attitude/airspeed, by all clues available ... no? If you can't do this, I say again ... you should question your piloting skills.

Smarthawke,

I don't dismiss the idea of using GPS to aid you, but I feel that it's a bit too dodgy to rely on. After all, there would be too much lag and it reads groundspeed not airspeed. By the time it showed you were to slow you'd be stalled. I realise, however, that you meant to suggest it's use as another aid and in that context you are quite right to point it out.

SS

[VFE]

It makes life very hard but a compass, rev counter, altimeter and VSI will suffice

At the risk of repeating myself. The ASI, VSI and altimeter are all pitot/static instruments so if a blockage has occured then all three could be susceptable to errors.

VFE.

[shortstripper]

Point taken VFE

OF course ASI failures usually stem from blocked pressure lines (ice/insect) whereas ALT and VSI are supplied by static air which can be switched to alternate air ... or if necassary could have their glass broken to give a pretty good reading from cabin pressure.

THe biggest problem, as someone else has stated, is recognising that you have an instrument failure in the first place.

SS

[Whirlybird]

And I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that it helps to cover up the misreading instrument; even if you know it's misreading, it's hard to ignore it.

[VFE]

Indeed shortstripper. To open up the discussion a little let's consider a gyro failure in IMC and how this could specifically affect the AH. Another point worth making is that the turn and slip indicator is vital in the scan too, especially in IMC.

Good thread this. Nice to see some good coming out of such a terrible accident and that heart warming aviation community spirit pulling together in learning from the past and striving towards a safer future. Well done everyone.

VFE.

[Croqueteer]

Stripper, you are still worrying! If you had had proper IF training you would know that power can equal 0 in the equation, nothing to do with kinetic energy in this context, so you set 0 rpm and attitude that you know from training that will give a reasonable glide. You say about no AI. If you have neen flying in IMC for anything more than about 30secs with no gyro instrument, you will shortly be dead anyway, so losing your pressure instruments is no big deal, so for this thread it is safe to assume some form of attitude info. If you only have a DI and/or a turn indicator and are in IMC with no ASI, set power for what performance you want, ie s & l or descent/ climb, aprox trim, and keep the a/c flying straight using rudder only and you will be OK. I have kept myself alive from solo at 16 to still flying at 62, so something must be right. Mainly I know when to be scared.

[VFE]

If you have neen flying in IMC for anything more than about 30secs with no gyro instrument, you will shortly be dead anyway,

Whilst much of what you say from your many years of flying experience is very sound advice I feel you are too quick to rubbish certain things here. Having flown with someone who has experienced an AH gyro failure in IMC for real and succesfully recognised it by regular cross reference to the turn and slip co-ordinator and indeed, having had this emergency pulled on me in the sim (without expecting it) during an IMC take-off, it does not mean you're gonna be dead in 30 seconds although one can see that unless recognised you might very well be!

The key to most IMC instrument problems is a thorough scan as one instrument failure can very often be identified by reference and comparrison to other readings. To talk of mulitiple failures takes the topic into the realms of the absurd and could quite easily confuse someone in a real emergency so lets be careful just how in depth we go on the basis of probability.

VFE.

[shortstripper]

With the greatest respect Croqueteer, I would suggest that you are now picking holes, trying to twist what I have said and maybe even trying to suggest I'm a fool or poorly trained. That would not only be an insult to me but to my instructors ... some of whom were flying operationally in WW2 and knew a thing or two about instrument failures ... engine failures ... flak damage

As VFE has said ... to lose a gyro instrument in IMC is not a 30 second death sentence, or at least it shouldn't be. In any case we started off talking about the ASI, and the loss of that certainly should be well covered in instrument training. I am not fool enough to be unafraid or so cock sure to think I might not mess up ... but if I had a gyro failure in IMC I'm not about to throw up my hands in despair and take a cyanide pill. If I took what you said too literally ... I might just as well do that.

I too have been flying since 16 but I'm not 62 ... so what? what does that prove? I know plenty of very old drivers who quite frankly should have killed themselves years ago but didn't. Incidently I'm not suggesting old pilots or drivers are bad ... just that a long time without accident does always mean supreme skill.

If you wish to worry about me that's great, nice to know someone cares. Having read what you have said , I'll return the compliment and worry about you too

SS

[Ex Oggie]

For those of you that wish to complain about the graphic images used to illustrate this sad event, here is the link that you can use for direct contact with the online news side of the Beeb, slightly different to the other, although I used both! My condolances to all involved.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3281777.stm

[IO540]

I haven't read everything that been said about this incident here and everywhere else, but how does everyone "know" it was an ASI failure and nothing else?

I don't really think anybody would fly a plane into the ground, in VMC, just because the speedo was not reading correctly. After takeoff, one is at full power and being at full power is pretty obvious.

[Croqueteer]

Shortstripper and VFE, I did not say losing one gyro was fatal, I said trying to fly in IMC without any gyro reference would be fatal.
I will now bow out of this thread.

[Send Clowns]

I think some calm is needed here, and a few points to gather in, both about the discussion here and about safely flying with a problem.

Firstly, although I have it confirmed from a source independent of Paul (smithy2u) that the pilot did report no indication on the ASI, we do not know that this was the final cause of the crash. I agree therefore with IO540, and think we should relax our speculation a little.

However, in order to learn from this incident as early as possible, I did point out a few tips in my original post, as general advice. They considered what I then saw as the most likely possibilities, pitot blockage or power problem. To carry on that theme, can I suggest that instead of debating the issue you go and practice? Non-ASI flying is a non-event, if it has been experienced before. The only requirement to deal safely with it is to have done so in a calm environment, with an instructor who can see the ASI keeping you safe, so when it is encountered unexpectedly the pilot does not focus too heavily on the problem and instead flies the aeroplane!

Incidentally, every student whose ASI I have covered in the climbout has actually flown a perfectly safe circuit to very competent landing, on power and attitude only. Often they have kept airspeed more acurately than they did when they could refer to the instrument! There is no need to use anything other than good flying techniques. I would suggest that reference to an instrument unfamiliar in this role, such as GPS, can only be a distraction.

We have also been discussing at the club here our own favoured landing areas if we have an engine failure off that runway (26, for those that know EGHH). It is not the easiest but there are always options, so the discussion is very useful. Think about your own home airfields, next time you take off look at the fields availble, and as I said before, fly safely.

P.S. Croqueteer, you might like to be less confrontational in a sensitive debate. Especially when you are wrong. It is possible to fly in cloud on compass and pressure instruments only. It is just very difficult.

[Croqueteer]

Send C, Gyro compass, yes, magnetic compass no. With a magnetic compass you might prolong the agony, but when you've lost the place, you've had it.

[GTOTO]

I believe the rules on radio silence during a Mayday event should be changed.

At the moment every one keeps quiet and only responds if the pilots makes a request.

Having suffered an engine failure at 750ft and survived while a friend suffered the same at 300ft and spun in trying a 180.
Some one should have told him to keep the speed up ornot to do it.

I think ATC should give some standard advice, dependant on the failure.

Advice from ATC in this situation may have made the difference and help unload the pilot, it is very easy to go into mental overload, as mentioned and it does take time to assimilate the situation and plan a course of action.

My event lasted 90 seconds from engine failure to sitting in a field. Lucky

I would have appreciated ATC running over some do's and don'ts.
Like keep the speed up, I did, it is better to run into the far fence than stall in on approach.

Very sad the out come and how well would we cope in a very stressful situation.

ATC should have suggested to climb at say 300ft/min at full power to a decent altitude, then practise some handing before returning to the field.

GTOTO

[VFE]

Wishful thinking but when responsibilties such as those you recommend get delegated, the role of pilot in command becomes cloudied and the real problems begin. The ATCO does not know if the PIC is a 10'000 houred pro or a 100hr amatuer so his advice may easily be worth less than even the 100 houred pilot. In this day and age of liabilty and lawsuits, anyone who thinks they can play the hero by breaking the rules does so at their own risk.

The PIC is trained to deal with emergencies, obviously when the brown stuff hits the fan, some may falter (not saying that's the case here) but if one feels that one may need prompting by ATC in a real emergency then one best ground themselves until they feel confident enough to resume their role as PIC.

VFE.

[GTOTO]

n reply

In this stupid PC world of today you may be correct, better to watch someone kill themselves than interfere.

I am not suggesting orders only a gentle word, you feel very alone when it all goes quiet.

I forgot to switch of fuel and unlock the doors.

My friend was a high time pilot with a twin rating, so even the best could do with advice at times, probably more so and I feel it could have made a difference in many situations.


GTOTO

[Flyin'Dutch']

GTOTO,

Sorry to read about your mate but to think that some ATC advice would have made a difference is, I think unrealistic.

By the time they would have seen what was happening, secondguessing what the intentions are pressing the button and giving meaningful suggestions it will all have already happened.

And in the instance of your own EFATO how is ATC to know whether you have done the fuel and the door?

Nope when you are out there you are on your tod that is the way the cookie crumbles. ATC are more than happy to help when requested, but for the time being I am very happy that they keep quiet whilst I go through my drills and emergency checklist trying to keep the thing going and solving my problem.

Ever tried doing Rubik's cube whilst someone was rabbitting on in your ear. Try it and see how much more difficult it is.

There is a good reason why communicate is last item in the list aviate, navigate, communicate. Planes don't fly on radiowaves.

FD

[Whirlybird]

If you're overloaded, you can't listen. When doing my FI test, I was told not to speak to a student while they're doing a manoevre, not even to tell them they're doing well. You need 110% concentration in an emergency. And ATC don't have all the facts. They don't know whether landing straight ahead is into a tall building, and maybe you need to turn 90 degrees. Having them talk to you might help, but it might be the one distraction that stops you doing the right things and landing safely. Who's to know, and I personally would prefer complete silence when dealing with an emergency that needs an instant response. Of course, if you have time, a reassuring word is nice, and in my experience in those situations ATC can be absolutely wonderful.

[PPRuNe Radar]

The vast majority of ATC people will not have a flying licence.

Certainly the 'younger' generation of NATS controllers will only have had around 10 hours flying so how can they be expected to give ANY practical advice on every kind of aircraft which has a potential engine failure ? It's simply silly and they may even make matters worse by giving inappropriate instructions.

Probably about 60% of NATS controllers did get their PPL in the long and distant past as part of their ATC training, but if my unit is typical, then only a handful actually keep it going.

Non NATS controllers are probably even less likely to have had flying training unless they were enthusiastic enough to have paid for it themselves. (Chilli Monster springs to mind here !!)

In my PPL training, turning back after an EFATO was drummed in to me as a very silly thing to do. The chances of you cocking it up far outweight the chances of putting it down safely somewhere ahead or 30 degrees either side.

GTOTO, remember that ATC are not in the cockpit. They don't know anything about your experience, your ability (a different thing all together !!), what you are doing to resolve the problem, and what you have forgotten or are doing badly. As Pilot In Command, all the responsibility falls on you to do your best to get the aircraft back on the ground. No one else can do that for you. Nothing to do with being PC, that's the way it is and by signing the aircraft out (or starting the flight if you own it), then you have agreed to accept that responsibility.

For anyone tempted to turn back, go and simulate a take off at altitude with an EFATO. See how much height you lose in a 180 degree turn back to your 'runway' datum.

[Send Clowns]

Not true croqueteer and you have yet even to try and justify your assertion. Try a level turn onto East or West. Then climb or descent out of cloud on this heading, using a trimmed aircraft and small, incremental power changes. As I say, very difficult. Certainly not impossible!