PAN... oh please
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Join Date: May 2003
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PAN... oh please
A friend called a PAN tonight and put down in a field with electrical problems, in a 3 axis microlight.
Next thing he knows, he is surrounded by 8 police cars, 2 ambulances and the Essex police helicopter.
As he had no need for any of them, what worries me is that next time someone goes down, and stuffs it, they may not bother coming at all.
Come to sunny Essex, there is so little crime that the police just sit around waiting for an out field landing.
Next thing he knows, he is surrounded by 8 police cars, 2 ambulances and the Essex police helicopter.
As he had no need for any of them, what worries me is that next time someone goes down, and stuffs it, they may not bother coming at all.
Come to sunny Essex, there is so little crime that the police just sit around waiting for an out field landing.
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Hmm
Would tend to go along with loftustb.
The fact that so many people turned up was probably due to the fact that they were very much on standby and it was the only call they had received for a while.
Let's assume the forced landing didn't go all that well. What could have been an innocent PAN could have turned into a unseen barbed wire fence cutting throught the fuselage at head height on landing causing serious injury and an overturn......
If I were your friend, I would have personally thanked them for turning up. Perhaps I am just feeling super sensitive towards safety these days.
Would tend to go along with loftustb.
The fact that so many people turned up was probably due to the fact that they were very much on standby and it was the only call they had received for a while.
Let's assume the forced landing didn't go all that well. What could have been an innocent PAN could have turned into a unseen barbed wire fence cutting throught the fuselage at head height on landing causing serious injury and an overturn......
If I were your friend, I would have personally thanked them for turning up. Perhaps I am just feeling super sensitive towards safety these days.
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Yes i would agree Mono but its getting a bit daft these days.
I have called up with alt problems on battery ( not even worthy of a pan which waswhy i didn't declare one) and then given them a zone ETA and then switched off the master then called again before entering to be met on the ground by everything.
If ATC upgrade everything to a full emergency without the PIC knowing its not going to be long before alot of people start holding back information becuase they don't want the works. So when it really goes tits up ATC have little or no warning.
I know they are covering there arses but its now beginning to make a them and us attitude with some pilots removing ATC from the loop while dealing with problems.
MJ
I have called up with alt problems on battery ( not even worthy of a pan which waswhy i didn't declare one) and then given them a zone ETA and then switched off the master then called again before entering to be met on the ground by everything.
If ATC upgrade everything to a full emergency without the PIC knowing its not going to be long before alot of people start holding back information becuase they don't want the works. So when it really goes tits up ATC have little or no warning.
I know they are covering there arses but its now beginning to make a them and us attitude with some pilots removing ATC from the loop while dealing with problems.
MJ
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When I had my "little incident" in the Tay Estuary the whole of Dundee was closed down as the Major Incident Plan swung into place.
You've never seen so many flashing blue lights. There were four of us aboard.
You've never seen so many flashing blue lights. There were four of us aboard.
A testament, perhaps, to how rare aircraft accidents really are?
Also perhaps a post 9/11 awareness of how much damage an aircraft can do flown into the wrong place - the local emergency planners would probably much rather have far too many emergency services (briefly) there, than not enough if something really nasty had happened.
G
Also perhaps a post 9/11 awareness of how much damage an aircraft can do flown into the wrong place - the local emergency planners would probably much rather have far too many emergency services (briefly) there, than not enough if something really nasty had happened.
G
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Yes but afterwards you get some bloke in firemans uniform walking up to asking for details of the emergency. Then the local bobby wants your details. Added the fact you have the whole fire brigade chasing you up the runway.
And they all get very upset when you explain to them its got sod all to do you with you because you never declaired an emergency. If the bloke in the tower says it was an emergency go and get his name and address. And then some fanny with a camera comes and trys to take your picture for the local rag because he was near by with the scanner on.
I think the ATC training book has diverged away from the pilot training book and in some respects it is removing some of the options away from the PIC. Thus the flow of information is going to be limited due to the PIC not wanting for the ATC to pre declare for them and all the associated stuff that unfolds.
I should imagine that the fire brigrade like nothing better than to go runnning out. But to be met by all the flashy lights etc is more trauma than having a very minor problem in the air.
MJ
And they all get very upset when you explain to them its got sod all to do you with you because you never declaired an emergency. If the bloke in the tower says it was an emergency go and get his name and address. And then some fanny with a camera comes and trys to take your picture for the local rag because he was near by with the scanner on.
I think the ATC training book has diverged away from the pilot training book and in some respects it is removing some of the options away from the PIC. Thus the flow of information is going to be limited due to the PIC not wanting for the ATC to pre declare for them and all the associated stuff that unfolds.
I should imagine that the fire brigrade like nothing better than to go runnning out. But to be met by all the flashy lights etc is more trauma than having a very minor problem in the air.
MJ
Don't be so bl@@dy ungrateful.
I hope that there is never a day when you need it but if you do I bet there wouldn't be a complaint that the police helicopter spotted the wreckage, the fire service cut you free and the paramedics saved your life.
They're all there to protect life and every one of them would rather get there and find out that they weren't needed than not get the opportunity to assist when they were.
Do you honestly think that they won't bother next time because the last time everyone was alive?
Would anyone really avoid putting out a PAN or Mayday when required because it might cause ten minutes of hassle when you got away with it and walked away unscathed?
Come on.
I hope that there is never a day when you need it but if you do I bet there wouldn't be a complaint that the police helicopter spotted the wreckage, the fire service cut you free and the paramedics saved your life.
They're all there to protect life and every one of them would rather get there and find out that they weren't needed than not get the opportunity to assist when they were.
Do you honestly think that they won't bother next time because the last time everyone was alive?
Would anyone really avoid putting out a PAN or Mayday when required because it might cause ten minutes of hassle when you got away with it and walked away unscathed?
Come on.
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Sorry i went off on a rant with out reading the post correctly.
My point was ATC upgrading problems to emergencys ie not pans and maydays. And most of the time not bothering telling the PIC.
Its happened twice to me now i have said I had an issue with out declaring a PAN or a MAYDAY and i have the full works on landing. First time was a shock second time i was pissed off. Especially when all I wanted was fuel uplift.
MJ
My point was ATC upgrading problems to emergencys ie not pans and maydays. And most of the time not bothering telling the PIC.
Its happened twice to me now i have said I had an issue with out declaring a PAN or a MAYDAY and i have the full works on landing. First time was a shock second time i was pissed off. Especially when all I wanted was fuel uplift.
MJ
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Had one in the USA. Two green lights. Unicom airfield responded magnificently, summoning the fire and ambulance service.
We eventually sorted it in the air, but they were there anyway so stayed till we were down. Then we had a friendly chat with the fire chief (super bloke). he was also CFI at one of the local FBOs, and his lads were all keen on flying, too. It ended up as quite a "pleasant" experience.
I'd rather too many flashing blue lights than too few, that's for sure!
We eventually sorted it in the air, but they were there anyway so stayed till we were down. Then we had a friendly chat with the fire chief (super bloke). he was also CFI at one of the local FBOs, and his lads were all keen on flying, too. It ended up as quite a "pleasant" experience.
I'd rather too many flashing blue lights than too few, that's for sure!
I agree that too many blues is better than too few, but lets not forget that if it's not a real emergency in the eyes of the PIC, then the emergency services would be far better off helping other people and not wasting their time at the scene of a non-accident.
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My point was ATC upgrading problems to emergencys ie not pans and maydays. And most of the time not bothering telling the PIC.
With less and less ATCO's knowing what actually goes on at the controls of an aircraft you're going to find this happening more and more I'm afraid unless you're prepared to put in some input yourself.
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I once diverted into Hahn because my dad needed a wee. It was with great difficulty that I persuaded the controller not to respond to a full emergency.
Polly Vacher happened to be on the approach at the time and I think it was only her giggling that finally de-fused the whole situation.
Polly Vacher happened to be on the approach at the time and I think it was only her giggling that finally de-fused the whole situation.
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It is not unknown for pilots to down play in flight problems for a variety of reasons.
To moan about people being helpful epitomises the moaning culture the UK.
If the guy would have crashed and burnt and 2 days later Plod would have arrived on his bicycle you would have had something to moan about.
Get a life.
FD
To moan about people being helpful epitomises the moaning culture the UK.
If the guy would have crashed and burnt and 2 days later Plod would have arrived on his bicycle you would have had something to moan about.
Get a life.
FD
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I diverted into Duxford just as the Flying Legends show ended a fortnight ago.
I called and told them I was diverting in due to a rough running engine, 2 pob, requesting a priority.
The firecrew got their truck started, blues on and waited whilst I taxied in next to a Spitfire. We both jumped out, lifted the bonnet and started fiddling. A quick wave over the taxiway to the fire crew saw them stand down.
Excellent response - not too dramatic in front of thousands of spectators and hundreds of sky-Gods!
Stik
I called and told them I was diverting in due to a rough running engine, 2 pob, requesting a priority.
The firecrew got their truck started, blues on and waited whilst I taxied in next to a Spitfire. We both jumped out, lifted the bonnet and started fiddling. A quick wave over the taxiway to the fire crew saw them stand down.
Excellent response - not too dramatic in front of thousands of spectators and hundreds of sky-Gods!
Stik
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They (the emergency services) could well be using the "little incidents" for practice purposes and to make sure that everyone's OK, which is good.
Anyway, it's nice to know that they do come out!
Anyway, it's nice to know that they do come out!
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Mad_jock... imagen this...
Your flying along and your engine splutters once.. but you decide not to tell anyone else about it.. it then splutters again and once more.. the next time it stops altogether.. you then end up landing badly in some farmers feild requiring medical assistance..
Would it not be better to have RFFS on a 'Standby' (i.e in there trucks awaiting for your safe, or not so safe arrival to earth) - rather than them sitting around in there rest room drinking tea??
With working in ATC, i would much rather have my crews standing by for something that could be come more than it is rather than them not.. remember pro-active responce is better than a re-active responce!!
just my views anyway...
Your flying along and your engine splutters once.. but you decide not to tell anyone else about it.. it then splutters again and once more.. the next time it stops altogether.. you then end up landing badly in some farmers feild requiring medical assistance..
Would it not be better to have RFFS on a 'Standby' (i.e in there trucks awaiting for your safe, or not so safe arrival to earth) - rather than them sitting around in there rest room drinking tea??
With working in ATC, i would much rather have my crews standing by for something that could be come more than it is rather than them not.. remember pro-active responce is better than a re-active responce!!
just my views anyway...
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I think Chilli has got where I am coming from. Unfortunatly its been over 18 months now since the second incident so will leave it alone now.
All it requires is one question. "Will you require assistance?" or "rodger please be advised we will be using this for local training."
And yes i agree chilli now ATCO's don't do as much flying its bound to occur. I can also see the reason why ATCO's would prefer to cover there backsides by over declaring. And ATC have no way of knowing if its a virgin PPL at the controls or a Crusty vet of the GA highways. Some of the PFA aircraft I would put the airport on standby before the engine was started "someone hit the crash button an Europa has booked out"
only teasing
My gripe is nothing to do with the stirling people who turn up to these events and i am sure they like nothing better, makes a change from the usual RTA. The fact that alls well, even better. Maybe thast the reason why so many turn up. Brillant excuse for the bosses to escape the office for something interesting.
The example described above would have me issuing a mayday on the second splutter away from the field. One splutter is an engine fart second is a mayday in mybook. Its the various other forms of failures we get in light aircraft all to frequently
eg Vacum pump failures, alternators, giro failures, electrical faults, DV windows blowing off, doors poping open.
All of which depending on the situation you would be wise to inform ATC about (So they don't suddenly see a window missing door hanging open etc) but depending on the experence of the pilot have absolutly no effect on the safety of the aircraft.
MJ
All it requires is one question. "Will you require assistance?" or "rodger please be advised we will be using this for local training."
And yes i agree chilli now ATCO's don't do as much flying its bound to occur. I can also see the reason why ATCO's would prefer to cover there backsides by over declaring. And ATC have no way of knowing if its a virgin PPL at the controls or a Crusty vet of the GA highways. Some of the PFA aircraft I would put the airport on standby before the engine was started "someone hit the crash button an Europa has booked out"
only teasingMy gripe is nothing to do with the stirling people who turn up to these events and i am sure they like nothing better, makes a change from the usual RTA. The fact that alls well, even better. Maybe thast the reason why so many turn up. Brillant excuse for the bosses to escape the office for something interesting.
The example described above would have me issuing a mayday on the second splutter away from the field. One splutter is an engine fart second is a mayday in mybook. Its the various other forms of failures we get in light aircraft all to frequently
eg Vacum pump failures, alternators, giro failures, electrical faults, DV windows blowing off, doors poping open.
All of which depending on the situation you would be wise to inform ATC about (So they don't suddenly see a window missing door hanging open etc) but depending on the experence of the pilot have absolutly no effect on the safety of the aircraft.
MJ