PAN... oh please
Nice
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I've just mentioned this post to my girlfriend, who works in the ambulance control room.
She was on duty on that day and remembers a 999 call being made by a member of the public, who stated that an aircraft had just crashed into a field.
Hence the sizeable response from the emergency services.
Hope that answers some of the questions !
She was on duty on that day and remembers a 999 call being made by a member of the public, who stated that an aircraft had just crashed into a field.
Hence the sizeable response from the emergency services.
Hope that answers some of the questions !
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the thing i find with aviation is that most people only associate it with jet airliners. The general population dont even think about a small cessna/piper etc when you mention flying, never mind the difference between a 747 and an X-air. so at the first mention of a 'plane crash' they imagine 2-300 people burning in a field.
but as for radio calls if you dont want them to turn up when you put down in a field then dont make the call! its sad that ATCO's dont get their PPL any more but its something we have to deal with.
myself, i would rather see 20 fire engines and amulances turn up than none at all, but at the same time they should be fed the correct information so that their limited resources arent tied up dealing with a non event.
but as for radio calls if you dont want them to turn up when you put down in a field then dont make the call! its sad that ATCO's dont get their PPL any more but its something we have to deal with.
myself, i would rather see 20 fire engines and amulances turn up than none at all, but at the same time they should be fed the correct information so that their limited resources arent tied up dealing with a non event.
niknak
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andyb79
When we call the emergency services for any incident, we have a system to notify them of the seating capacity of the particular aircraft involved, this allows them to assess how many personnel and what equipment should be sent to the incident.
I know that this system exists at many other airfields throughout the UK, and it's proven to work well and be a very efficient system.
As for the flippant
remarks from a few amateurs inferring overkill by the emergency services, it's not just you that the emergency services are concerned about.
If you're making a forced landing, the services have to assume the worst, for example, that any resultant fire or impact from your predicament may have detrimental effects upon other people or their property.
It doesn't really matter how many of the emergency services turn up, because they can always turn back, start to worry when they don't show at all.
When we call the emergency services for any incident, we have a system to notify them of the seating capacity of the particular aircraft involved, this allows them to assess how many personnel and what equipment should be sent to the incident.
I know that this system exists at many other airfields throughout the UK, and it's proven to work well and be a very efficient system.
As for the flippant
remarks from a few amateurs inferring overkill by the emergency services, it's not just you that the emergency services are concerned about. If you're making a forced landing, the services have to assume the worst, for example, that any resultant fire or impact from your predicament may have detrimental effects upon other people or their property.
It doesn't really matter how many of the emergency services turn up, because they can always turn back, start to worry when they don't show at all.
"One very wet and very windy day at a large airfield in Hampshire I happened to be the Tower Controller. Inbound was a VC10 to pick up some VIPs. The wind was very gusty, across the RWY and there were lots of squally showers. Not fun. In view of this I put the Fire Section on "Local Standby", which got them in their appliances, outside the station and ready to Roll, should it be neccessary."
What the heck for? Gross over-reaction to a situation you weren't qualified to assess (how many cross wind landings have you flown in a VC10? And how many as a VIP Captain?) - and I'm not surprised the Wg Cdr queried your action. He was polite enough not to disturb your control - but it's the unqualified interpretation of Aircraft Commanders' requirements which annoys most.
And as for anyone getting Captain Flack and his gang to get into their big red thing because someone's returning with a vacuum pump failure? Oh come on - that's quite absurd. You do know what a vac pump is for, I trust?
What the heck for? Gross over-reaction to a situation you weren't qualified to assess (how many cross wind landings have you flown in a VC10? And how many as a VIP Captain?) - and I'm not surprised the Wg Cdr queried your action. He was polite enough not to disturb your control - but it's the unqualified interpretation of Aircraft Commanders' requirements which annoys most.
And as for anyone getting Captain Flack and his gang to get into their big red thing because someone's returning with a vacuum pump failure? Oh come on - that's quite absurd. You do know what a vac pump is for, I trust?
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BEagle....
How many X-wind landings in a VC10? None I'm afraid.
How many as a VIP Capt? None at all.
Gross over reaction? No, I didn't think so. As the Tower Controller I was responsible for the safety of the air-side and all those using it. My Call. Nearly 20 years on and I'd still make the same decision, as would all of my colleagues.
Not qualified? CAA ATS Standards do not agree.
Over-react or slow to react? Which is better from the emergency services viewpoint?
Bringing the Fire Crews to readiness isn't a slur on anyones airmanship or skill. Things can and do go wrong, even to the best. There is nothing wrong in being prepared.
Rgds Bex
How many X-wind landings in a VC10? None I'm afraid.
How many as a VIP Capt? None at all.
Gross over reaction? No, I didn't think so. As the Tower Controller I was responsible for the safety of the air-side and all those using it. My Call. Nearly 20 years on and I'd still make the same decision, as would all of my colleagues.
Not qualified? CAA ATS Standards do not agree.
Over-react or slow to react? Which is better from the emergency services viewpoint?
Bringing the Fire Crews to readiness isn't a slur on anyones airmanship or skill. Things can and do go wrong, even to the best. There is nothing wrong in being prepared.
Rgds Bex
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You do know what a vac pump is for, I trust?
If commanders feel raised readiness as an attack on their abilities as a pilot, they should take a "how to not be oversensitive"-worshop.........
Jesus!
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Paracab
That would explain why they arrived despite a "no assistance required" radio call.
Niknak
Pilots can sometimes be trusted to assess their own exposure to danger and the amount of assistance required.
That would explain why they arrived despite a "no assistance required" radio call.
Niknak
Pilots can sometimes be trusted to assess their own exposure to danger and the amount of assistance required.
Nice
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bar shaker,
Absolutely, at the end of the day if a do gooder member of the public phones 999 and tells the emergency services a plane has just crashed you can expect a large response, no assistance radio calls or not.
It would seem thay despite the good intentions of the pilot in putting out a no assistance required radio call, a member of the public misinterpreted the situation which led to the escalation and over resourcing.
In fact, that 999 call may be the only reason the all the services turned up at all, if a no assistance call had been put out.
Absolutely, at the end of the day if a do gooder member of the public phones 999 and tells the emergency services a plane has just crashed you can expect a large response, no assistance radio calls or not.
It would seem thay despite the good intentions of the pilot in putting out a no assistance required radio call, a member of the public misinterpreted the situation which led to the escalation and over resourcing.
In fact, that 999 call may be the only reason the all the services turned up at all, if a no assistance call had been put out.
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Absolutely, at the end of the day if a do gooder member of the public phones 999 and tells the emergency services a plane has just crashed you can expect a large response, no assistance radio calls or not.
(This also applies to conservation volunteers, who sometimes have to make non-trivial bonfires in the middle of the countryside. Although they might phone up the fire brigade in advance to tell them what they're doing, and phone them up regularly to tell them the fire is still under control, the fire brigade will still turn out when some driver calls them on his mobile to report a "forest fire".)
Nice
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Gertrude is spot on, I should have added that.
It may be of interest also that it is the policy of Essex County Fire & Rescue Service NOT to cancel appliances once they are responding to a call, whatever the circumstances, they always continue so they can decide for themselves (additonal units responding can only be cancelled by a 'stop message' from a unit on scene that has assessed that further resources are not required)
I believe this policy was adopted years ago after they did cancel and the incident they were attending 'went wrong', so to speak.
It may be of interest also that it is the policy of Essex County Fire & Rescue Service NOT to cancel appliances once they are responding to a call, whatever the circumstances, they always continue so they can decide for themselves (additonal units responding can only be cancelled by a 'stop message' from a unit on scene that has assessed that further resources are not required)
I believe this policy was adopted years ago after they did cancel and the incident they were attending 'went wrong', so to speak.
Responding to 999/112 calls from the GenPub is one thing, over reaction from some TWATCO because you've decided to return due to a minor inconvenience (such as the vac pump has failed on a PPL Skill Test, so it wouldn't be fair on the applicant to carry on) is something else....
Don't try to fly my aeroplane - stick to your radios. I'll tell you what I need.
And, may I add, that if I'd been Duty Aircrew Officer and some ATCO had decided to put the fire crew on readiness because he thought the weather wasn't very nice in his totally unqualified opinion, then he'd have been out of the seat sharpish and I'd have had someone else running local.
Don't try to fly my aeroplane - stick to your radios. I'll tell you what I need.
And, may I add, that if I'd been Duty Aircrew Officer and some ATCO had decided to put the fire crew on readiness because he thought the weather wasn't very nice in his totally unqualified opinion, then he'd have been out of the seat sharpish and I'd have had someone else running local.
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And if you, as duty pilot in "my" tower, had tried that Beagle; You'd been outside in the snow in a blink!
Glad I'm not in the RAF!
(But I have to say, the RAF ones we have on visit each winter are very proffessional, and adapt well to the national DP rules, no need kick them out!
)
Glad I'm not in the RAF!
(But I have to say, the RAF ones we have on visit each winter are very proffessional, and adapt well to the national DP rules, no need kick them out!
)
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Please can someone explain why they feel the need to tell ATC that they have a problem if no assistance is required?
If you want to tell someone about your flight today, why not save radio bandwidth and post it on PPRuNe or Flyer? Someone will be interested, or at least pretend to be.
But if you want ATC to do nothing about your failed vacuum pump or whatever why are you telling them?
I am not being provocative, I honestly don't understand.
If you want to tell someone about your flight today, why not save radio bandwidth and post it on PPRuNe or Flyer? Someone will be interested, or at least pretend to be.
But if you want ATC to do nothing about your failed vacuum pump or whatever why are you telling them?
I am not being provocative, I honestly don't understand.
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Timothy
Its something I have also pondered since the start of this thread. I concluded that it would be used if going into an airfield, to ready the fire truck, but not have it charging after me.
A state of readiness, rather than action, that can easily be up or down graded.
There is absolutely no use for it away from an airfield. Its MAYDAY or nothing.
Its something I have also pondered since the start of this thread. I concluded that it would be used if going into an airfield, to ready the fire truck, but not have it charging after me.
A state of readiness, rather than action, that can easily be up or down graded.
There is absolutely no use for it away from an airfield. Its MAYDAY or nothing.
Many years ago as a tyro pilot with an engine failure I did not call it as I was confident enough that I would glide to the airfield and effect a safe landing and didn't want the added pressure of fire engines and everyone watching. I landed and snagged the aircraft - end of story. BUT what if the ATCO was packing them in tight and wanted me to overshoot. What if I had overestimated my ability and made a smoking heap short of the runway? It would have been MUCH better to have everyone in the loop and ready to act in the event that it all went horribly wrong. I have made lots of emergency calls since then and been glad of the company by the time I get to the runway.
As a grizzly old ATCO I have instigated emergencies many times for no more reason than the "feeling in the water". I have justified it to angry airline pilots, who didn't want their passengers worried. I would hapily make 99 unnecessary calls for the 1 time the fire crew can be at the burning wreckage 2 minutes earlier. I will not have on my conscience the pilot (and passengers) who survive the crash only to burn to death. Those without conscience will also be swayed by the subsequent board of enquirey (or litigation) where they will be asked why they did not consider a vacuum failure to be an emergency situation for the one person who does turn it into a crisis.
BEagle et al, you have to accept that not all pilots are as experienced as you. For some pilots merely getting lost or becoming disorientated would be good cause for fire standby. If a confident sounding pilot goes out, becomes unsure of thier position and so "shook-up" that they can't even work the radio (to get D&D help), what is the odds of their making a safe landing?
ATC see (witness) more landings than any pilot and when they are starting to scare us in the control tower it is time to have the engines out any waiting. When it is written in black and white in our procedures to have them waiting (for certain weather conditions) it would be inexcusable not to.
As a grizzly old ATCO I have instigated emergencies many times for no more reason than the "feeling in the water". I have justified it to angry airline pilots, who didn't want their passengers worried. I would hapily make 99 unnecessary calls for the 1 time the fire crew can be at the burning wreckage 2 minutes earlier. I will not have on my conscience the pilot (and passengers) who survive the crash only to burn to death. Those without conscience will also be swayed by the subsequent board of enquirey (or litigation) where they will be asked why they did not consider a vacuum failure to be an emergency situation for the one person who does turn it into a crisis.
BEagle et al, you have to accept that not all pilots are as experienced as you. For some pilots merely getting lost or becoming disorientated would be good cause for fire standby. If a confident sounding pilot goes out, becomes unsure of thier position and so "shook-up" that they can't even work the radio (to get D&D help), what is the odds of their making a safe landing?
ATC see (witness) more landings than any pilot and when they are starting to scare us in the control tower it is time to have the engines out any waiting. When it is written in black and white in our procedures to have them waiting (for certain weather conditions) it would be inexcusable not to.
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Hmm been following this and here’s what I think for what it’s worth…
To illustrate…
A while back I had a gear problem – as it turned out not just a dodgy light or microswitch (like it normally is when you get the two greens).
At no time during all the “is it down yet?” flybys or the “good-oh... I’ll have a go then" bit I hadn’t declared even so much as a P in pan let alone anything else – I guess it was apparent that things were a little iffy and ATC decided to roll trucks In their opinion they thought I might want them and had other stuff on my mind at the time I would have asked. (not to mention it may very well be SOPs for dodgy gear light time)
Did I need the trucks? No …
Did I ask for them? No …
Could I have needed them? Yes
Was I happy to see them? TOO BL00DY RIGHT!!
(and I don’t care who asked for them…)
To illustrate…
A while back I had a gear problem – as it turned out not just a dodgy light or microswitch (like it normally is when you get the two greens).
At no time during all the “is it down yet?” flybys or the “good-oh... I’ll have a go then" bit I hadn’t declared even so much as a P in pan let alone anything else – I guess it was apparent that things were a little iffy and ATC decided to roll trucks In their opinion they thought I might want them and had other stuff on my mind at the time I would have asked. (not to mention it may very well be SOPs for dodgy gear light time)
Did I need the trucks? No …
Did I ask for them? No …
Could I have needed them? Yes
Was I happy to see them? TOO BL00DY RIGHT!!
(and I don’t care who asked for them…)
