Orbiting
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wow I can see that this one is not going to be solved purerly by our knoweldge of the force but by our skill with a light sabre......
Does anyone ACTUALLY know what you are arguing about?
Does anyone ACTUALLY know what you are arguing about?
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This one is getting as boring as the subject matter!
But the person suggesting that people not on a flightplan have less priority than those on a FPL and can orbit until the cows come home needs to get out more often.
FD
But the person suggesting that people not on a flightplan have less priority than those on a FPL and can orbit until the cows come home needs to get out more often.
FD
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So boring that you felt the need to reply Doc?
I fear it is you sir that needs to get out more, either that or actually read what is being said.
The UK CAA are the ones that are not suggesting, but specifying the different flight categories and priorities. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who suggested aircraft are to orbit until the cows come home?
But the person suggesting that people not on a flightplan have less priority than those on a FPL and can orbit until the cows come home needs to get out more often.
The UK CAA are the ones that are not suggesting, but specifying the different flight categories and priorities. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who suggested aircraft are to orbit until the cows come home?
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Ops and Mops,
As an ATCO, you are responsible for ensuring that whatever you do does not endanger an aircraft. What the aircraft commander does is beyond your control provided you have acted correctly. Thus you can not be held responsible for the actions of another individual.
To go back to the orbiting and the example I gave, there obviously was no other traffic otherwise I would not have used the example. What I expect to do is turn base and final as close as possible behind the B747 and of course above it's flight path to avoid the wake and then having observed the touchdown point, I will land well beyond that point that the B747 touched down. All of which is perfectly safe and in acordance with the ICAO and CAA guidance on the matter.
What I don't want ATC to do is make me orbit unnecessarily and prevent me from observing the touchdown or to push me so far downwind that I have reached the point where the glideslope intersects my altitude thus not permitting me to stay above the wake after I turn in.
As for the difference between VFR and IFR vortex separation.......when VFR, I as the aircraft commander apply the separation and have the authority to say what that separation will be in the particular circumstances (and thank you for the reminder of the CAA recomendations), when IFR I expect that you will apply the separation appropriate for the circumstances but I will tell you to give me more if I need it.
Getting to the flight priority list, most of the problem lies in the fact that every cessna and cherokee that turn up are expected to be on a training flight when it comes to ATC pushing them to the back of the que but have absolutely no chance of obtaining a training discount on the landing fee.
In the past I have suffered such a delay and when asked for the training discount, I was refused because I was an ATPL holder and alone in the aircraft. After a short discussion, we agreed that giving me the discount would be fair since the inappropriate delay had cost me money. - - - - You never get anything until you ask
Filing a flight plan constitutes passing the information required by ATC. Every country has different requirements depending on the circumstances. The international standard is the full flight plan form. When the flight plan starts and ends does not checng the fact that for the period that it is active, a flight plan has been filed.
Can I simply quote a part of your statement - "Normal Flights = Flights which have filed a flight plan in the normal way and conforming with normal routins procedures..."
An inbound VFR flight routes via the appropriate VRP in the normal way and 10 minutes before the airspace boundary passes the required details and requests an ATC clearance. What is not normal about the filing of the flight plan or the routing in that case?
Perhaps you need to have a stack of flight plan forms beside you!
To be honnest, if every GA flight faxed a flight plan and once airborne, called the FIR to report the departure time, all the FIR controller would be doing is activating flight plans and the line to Heathrow would be permanently open......except on rainy days in winter!
If only we knew where you worked we would be sure to make your day next time we visit by dropping our usual short friendly message and replacing it with "request file airborne flight plan"
Finally having discovered thata student completed a PPL course and passed the GFT without knowing what an orbit was makes me worry that it is only a matter of time before some IMC rating holder arrives behind me in the sequence and despite being well down the list, reports that they do not know what a holding pattern is or how to fly one thus getting a priority approach.
What category are IFR flights on a flight plan by holders of IMC ratings who can't do an accurate holding pattern and who can't follow the star because they can't fly in the class A airspace above the CTA/CTR? Bet they are normal as well
Can't win really.
The answer I suggest is that all UK class D airspace is made class C. This would make the airspace match the actions of most ATC providers and at the same time prevent me getting sent into the hold so that some IMC holder who can't fly the hold gets ahead in the que.
Regards,
DFC
PS
Genghis,
You hit the nail on the head - you can be VMC but can't be VFR at night!!
As for permit aircraft being required to be VFR, that is very true but if the pilot holds an IR and is in class G airspace below 3000ft celar of cloud 120Kt, they can be VFR with only 1500m visibility (yuck). But they can't for example when above 3000ft simply call themselves IFR so that they can skim round the edge of a few fluffy bits (under a RIS) because the VFR flight rules require VMC and thus 1500m horizontally from all cloud above 3000ft in class G.
Great for safety that !!
As an ATCO, you are responsible for ensuring that whatever you do does not endanger an aircraft. What the aircraft commander does is beyond your control provided you have acted correctly. Thus you can not be held responsible for the actions of another individual.
To go back to the orbiting and the example I gave, there obviously was no other traffic otherwise I would not have used the example. What I expect to do is turn base and final as close as possible behind the B747 and of course above it's flight path to avoid the wake and then having observed the touchdown point, I will land well beyond that point that the B747 touched down. All of which is perfectly safe and in acordance with the ICAO and CAA guidance on the matter.
What I don't want ATC to do is make me orbit unnecessarily and prevent me from observing the touchdown or to push me so far downwind that I have reached the point where the glideslope intersects my altitude thus not permitting me to stay above the wake after I turn in.
As for the difference between VFR and IFR vortex separation.......when VFR, I as the aircraft commander apply the separation and have the authority to say what that separation will be in the particular circumstances (and thank you for the reminder of the CAA recomendations), when IFR I expect that you will apply the separation appropriate for the circumstances but I will tell you to give me more if I need it.
Getting to the flight priority list, most of the problem lies in the fact that every cessna and cherokee that turn up are expected to be on a training flight when it comes to ATC pushing them to the back of the que but have absolutely no chance of obtaining a training discount on the landing fee.
In the past I have suffered such a delay and when asked for the training discount, I was refused because I was an ATPL holder and alone in the aircraft. After a short discussion, we agreed that giving me the discount would be fair since the inappropriate delay had cost me money. - - - - You never get anything until you ask
Filing a flight plan constitutes passing the information required by ATC. Every country has different requirements depending on the circumstances. The international standard is the full flight plan form. When the flight plan starts and ends does not checng the fact that for the period that it is active, a flight plan has been filed.
Can I simply quote a part of your statement - "Normal Flights = Flights which have filed a flight plan in the normal way and conforming with normal routins procedures..."
An inbound VFR flight routes via the appropriate VRP in the normal way and 10 minutes before the airspace boundary passes the required details and requests an ATC clearance. What is not normal about the filing of the flight plan or the routing in that case?
Perhaps you need to have a stack of flight plan forms beside you!
To be honnest, if every GA flight faxed a flight plan and once airborne, called the FIR to report the departure time, all the FIR controller would be doing is activating flight plans and the line to Heathrow would be permanently open......except on rainy days in winter!
If only we knew where you worked we would be sure to make your day next time we visit by dropping our usual short friendly message and replacing it with "request file airborne flight plan"
Finally having discovered thata student completed a PPL course and passed the GFT without knowing what an orbit was makes me worry that it is only a matter of time before some IMC rating holder arrives behind me in the sequence and despite being well down the list, reports that they do not know what a holding pattern is or how to fly one thus getting a priority approach.
What category are IFR flights on a flight plan by holders of IMC ratings who can't do an accurate holding pattern and who can't follow the star because they can't fly in the class A airspace above the CTA/CTR? Bet they are normal as well
Can't win really.
The answer I suggest is that all UK class D airspace is made class C. This would make the airspace match the actions of most ATC providers and at the same time prevent me getting sent into the hold so that some IMC holder who can't fly the hold gets ahead in the que.
Regards,
DFC
PS
Genghis,
You hit the nail on the head - you can be VMC but can't be VFR at night!!
As for permit aircraft being required to be VFR, that is very true but if the pilot holds an IR and is in class G airspace below 3000ft celar of cloud 120Kt, they can be VFR with only 1500m visibility (yuck). But they can't for example when above 3000ft simply call themselves IFR so that they can skim round the edge of a few fluffy bits (under a RIS) because the VFR flight rules require VMC and thus 1500m horizontally from all cloud above 3000ft in class G.
Great for safety that !!
Last edited by DFC; 27th Jul 2004 at 22:40.
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I am glad someone else has worked out its cheaper to request an IFR recovery than fanny about with a visual join. LBA used to be great for that. You would jump in front of 6-7 aircraft just by paying 8 quid for the approach.
Good post DFC.
Good post DFC.
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From the original post it seems that s/he operates in a non-ATC environment. In that case it is fully understandabale that oribits within the circuit are not advised/ recommended/ condoned/ taught, since no-one is in control of what's going on and other pilots in the circuit will fully expect aircraft ahead to conform to the circuit procedure.
If operating in an ATC environment (not FISO, A/G) then orbiting is only done at the request of ATC, who will know what is ahead and behind and what spacing will result. If there's someone following you, whilst you are orbiting, they will either be far enough away (or slow enough), or ATC will orbit them as well.
When instructed to orbit by ATC, I have always turned away from the runway - this has never been crticised, either by F.I.s or by ATC.
Normally, as stated before, a simple 30 degree level banked turn is all that's needed. If ATC says "one orbit", then roll out of the orbit and continue on the next part of the circuit. If ATC says "orbit" and you don't know how many, then as you finish each orbit ask ATC "orbit finished, do you want me to continue orbitting". Usually, though ATC are watching and will tell you whether to roll out or "make another one".
Capt. M. my advice would be "don't worry, it isn't rocket science", and never be afraid to confirm with ATC what they want. On the other hand I would not expect orbiting in a non-ATC controlled circuit. Extend downwind/ upwind (depending where you are in the circuit relevant to others) or go around if you have got too close on final.
GB
If operating in an ATC environment (not FISO, A/G) then orbiting is only done at the request of ATC, who will know what is ahead and behind and what spacing will result. If there's someone following you, whilst you are orbiting, they will either be far enough away (or slow enough), or ATC will orbit them as well.
When instructed to orbit by ATC, I have always turned away from the runway - this has never been crticised, either by F.I.s or by ATC.
Normally, as stated before, a simple 30 degree level banked turn is all that's needed. If ATC says "one orbit", then roll out of the orbit and continue on the next part of the circuit. If ATC says "orbit" and you don't know how many, then as you finish each orbit ask ATC "orbit finished, do you want me to continue orbitting". Usually, though ATC are watching and will tell you whether to roll out or "make another one".
Capt. M. my advice would be "don't worry, it isn't rocket science", and never be afraid to confirm with ATC what they want. On the other hand I would not expect orbiting in a non-ATC controlled circuit. Extend downwind/ upwind (depending where you are in the circuit relevant to others) or go around if you have got too close on final.
GB
