Novice Formation
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Novice Formation
Has anyone ever just gone up and done some pre-arranged formation but without any formal instruction or practise?
What was it like - i'm just intrigued!
(well actually i would love some air to air photos.....)
What was it like - i'm just intrigued!
(well actually i would love some air to air photos.....)
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ACW 355 my old mate
One word "DON'T". You are risking you and your aircraft if you do.
All is not lost, there are loads of experienced formation guys out there. Mostly ex forces. In my experience they are only to happy to sit and talk through the rules and techniques. Then sit with you whilst you practice. The ones I,ve found do this for beer. (just be aware how much beer an ex RN/RAF pilot can drink). There are also a number of formation weekends you can go to. I think Ultimate High at kemble do this regularly. I do not know them, but from what I know of them they are highly regarded.
Is is not up to me to say what you can or can not do. All i can do is proffer some advice based on experience. It is your responsibility as the aircraft commander to exercises your judgement. Just brief your pax before you fly of your formation experience so they can exercise theirs.
Regard
Wide (ex ACE-47)
One word "DON'T". You are risking you and your aircraft if you do.
All is not lost, there are loads of experienced formation guys out there. Mostly ex forces. In my experience they are only to happy to sit and talk through the rules and techniques. Then sit with you whilst you practice. The ones I,ve found do this for beer. (just be aware how much beer an ex RN/RAF pilot can drink). There are also a number of formation weekends you can go to. I think Ultimate High at kemble do this regularly. I do not know them, but from what I know of them they are highly regarded.
Is is not up to me to say what you can or can not do. All i can do is proffer some advice based on experience. It is your responsibility as the aircraft commander to exercises your judgement. Just brief your pax before you fly of your formation experience so they can exercise theirs.
Regard
Wide (ex ACE-47)
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I know it has been done and people have got away with it, but it is like many things done without proper instruction, there are inherent dangers in formation flying that you will not know of and can bite you when things go wrong. i would suggest you get someone with you who knows what they are doing.
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Don't think he will get many air to air photographs that way
I was only wondering, I'm not stupid enough to go up without someone experienced by my side - i just wanted to know other peoples experiences
Thanks!
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It's easier to tell from her location........at least she seems to be from the same place most of my ex-girlfriends were from 
dp
Sorry.....couldn't resist
All my ex's were lovely
dp
Sorry.....couldn't resist
All my ex's were lovely
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Would underline above comments and the thread highlighted by Fly Stim by repeating a comment I heard from a senior GA publishing individual last year:
"Untrained formation flying might quite possibly be the fastest way to kill two pilots".
I would venture to suggest that formation novices who attend our courses are surprised at just how many ways it is possible to mess up, and how detailed the formation Standard Operating Procedures are in order to make it a safe exercise. Our SOPs are lifted straight from the RAF - unsurprisingly, as they work well there and our instructors are already familiar with them - and students have to memorise these before starting the course.
There are a couple of good places where you can learn formation safely and professionally. Very happy to offer free advice and coffee at Kemble or Goodwood to anybody who'd like to chat about formation flying. Or any other form of flying come to that!
"Untrained formation flying might quite possibly be the fastest way to kill two pilots".
I would venture to suggest that formation novices who attend our courses are surprised at just how many ways it is possible to mess up, and how detailed the formation Standard Operating Procedures are in order to make it a safe exercise. Our SOPs are lifted straight from the RAF - unsurprisingly, as they work well there and our instructors are already familiar with them - and students have to memorise these before starting the course.
There are a couple of good places where you can learn formation safely and professionally. Very happy to offer free advice and coffee at Kemble or Goodwood to anybody who'd like to chat about formation flying. Or any other form of flying come to that!
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A bit OT but there's a formation rating (or endorsement, can't remember) that you need to have to fly in formation PIC in Australia - sensible, I'd say! It's for the safety...
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Formation & Photos
All,
Formation is a highly specialised skill that requires proper training in order for it to be done safely.
This is not said to put you off, because it is great fun - get the training first and then speak to someone in the know.
If you plan to formate on another aircraft with the other commander's prior agreement (the law - and that's all it is) and take pictures of him/her whilst flying your own aircraft, then I am already talking to a dead person.
AC
Formation is a highly specialised skill that requires proper training in order for it to be done safely.
This is not said to put you off, because it is great fun - get the training first and then speak to someone in the know.
If you plan to formate on another aircraft with the other commander's prior agreement (the law - and that's all it is) and take pictures of him/her whilst flying your own aircraft, then I am already talking to a dead person.
AC
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ACW,
Don't be put off by this all. Feel encouraged and go and do it, but only after being instructed properly by someone who does know what you are talking about.
Greeners and AC are too modest and no doubt there are others who can provide excellent training but you could do a lot worse than talking to these good folks at www.ultimatehigh.co.uk.
They even managed to get me to understand the basics and have a lot of fun during the training I got from them.
Let's know how you got on!
FD
Don't be put off by this all. Feel encouraged and go and do it, but only after being instructed properly by someone who does know what you are talking about.
Greeners and AC are too modest and no doubt there are others who can provide excellent training but you could do a lot worse than talking to these good folks at www.ultimatehigh.co.uk.
They even managed to get me to understand the basics and have a lot of fun during the training I got from them.
Let's know how you got on!
FD
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Thanks for all the replies, I'm not silly and was just wondering because personally, i think the law on formation 'prior agreement' is dangerous.
I think the CAA should consider aeros + formation ratings like in CASA do in Oz.
I have been up with Ultimate High already and am seriously considering doing some formation training
I think the CAA should consider aeros + formation ratings like in CASA do in Oz.
I have been up with Ultimate High already and am seriously considering doing some formation training
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Define 'formation' - by giving some sort of separation distance.
Some people get the screaming heebie-geebies if they are within 200 yds of an aiircraft going the same direction, same height, similar speed.
I don't. (300 hrs, no formal formation training)
I sure don't want to get closer than about 100, but provided one person flies, and another operates the telephoto, and both pilots agree what they'll do if they lose each other or inadvertantly enter cloud, and they're in radio contact - seems ok to me...
(Dons hard hat and retires)
Steve R
Some people get the screaming heebie-geebies if they are within 200 yds of an aiircraft going the same direction, same height, similar speed.
I don't. (300 hrs, no formal formation training)
I sure don't want to get closer than about 100, but provided one person flies, and another operates the telephoto, and both pilots agree what they'll do if they lose each other or inadvertantly enter cloud, and they're in radio contact - seems ok to me...
(Dons hard hat and retires)
Steve R
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ACW
Don't want to prolong the 'don't do it without training' comments because they are all correct. For reasonable air to air photos you dont need to be in close formation but you do still need to get some training and make sure you are flying with a photo ship pilot who knows what he is doing. In some ways photo work is more dangerous than close formation as you tend to be changing position quite a lot and trying to get interesting angles.
I have flown quite a few photo sorties but always with a known photo ship pilot, a known photographer, and a pre flight briefing. It is great fun and we work as a team to get the best shots possible to show off the characteristics of the aircraft in question.
Don't want to prolong the 'don't do it without training' comments because they are all correct. For reasonable air to air photos you dont need to be in close formation but you do still need to get some training and make sure you are flying with a photo ship pilot who knows what he is doing. In some ways photo work is more dangerous than close formation as you tend to be changing position quite a lot and trying to get interesting angles.
I have flown quite a few photo sorties but always with a known photo ship pilot, a known photographer, and a pre flight briefing. It is great fun and we work as a team to get the best shots possible to show off the characteristics of the aircraft in question.
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As already said, don't do formation flying without both pilots trained. I've had a couple of hairy experiences and am very wary now.
What I now do for simple air photos, not having had training and only when I trust the lead pilot, is to go up with a 300mm lens, have a good brief on the ground, decide where we are going and where our turns are going to be, lead aircraft must just fly straight and make shallow turns, possibly to the right away from the photo plane that can keep at a good distance to the left and move up down and slightly forward following photographers instructions.
AE
What I now do for simple air photos, not having had training and only when I trust the lead pilot, is to go up with a 300mm lens, have a good brief on the ground, decide where we are going and where our turns are going to be, lead aircraft must just fly straight and make shallow turns, possibly to the right away from the photo plane that can keep at a good distance to the left and move up down and slightly forward following photographers instructions.
AE
