Ignoring danger areas
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Ignoring danger areas
Last sunday, I was minding my own business at somewhere around 3000ft nne of Luton and got the rare view of one of the airships coming in to land at Cardington, which was great. What was not so great was the sight of an idiot then charging straight through the danger area when it was active. Are these people mad or are they hell bent on killing themselves (and others).?
This gives GA a bad name
End of gripe
This gives GA a bad name
End of gripe
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I had 3 Swiss w@ankers in light ac that flew straight trough an active (it's active H24) Dangerarea in/below "my" TMA on Sunday. They left the freq as soon as they left the CTR, so I could not reach them eigther.
Dangerous.....nooooo, just .50 cal and 84mm Carl Gustav live fire.
It's called "danger" for a reason......
Dangerous.....nooooo, just .50 cal and 84mm Carl Gustav live fire.
It's called "danger" for a reason......
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There was of course the (in)famous N reg Bonanza ferry flight which made it across the pond, refuelled at Prestwick, but had no UK charts on board.... so he just programmed the destination airfield into the GPS ( Dinard?), climbed to 5000 feet and engaged the autopilot.
Think he p**sed off the military and civil controllers in equal measure
Think he p**sed off the military and civil controllers in equal measure
Last sunday, I was minding my own business at somewhere around 3000ft nne of Luton and got the rare view of one of the airships coming in to land at Cardington, which was great. What was not so great was the sight of an idiot then charging straight through the danger area when it was active. Are these people mad or are they hell bent on killing themselves (and others).?
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D206 is one of my two local danger areas.
The D in this instance does not refer to the airship operations. Rather, there is a met balloon occasionally wound up to great heights on the end of a steel cable. Transgress against that balloon and it will be the last thing you do!
Cranfield passes traffic information relating to the airship when it is operating, but the danger area itself is not normally active during those operations. Looks to me as though your "idiot" was probably doing nothing wrong.
Do you think there are such people as NOTAM number collectors, a bit like train spotters? 
2D
The D in this instance does not refer to the airship operations. Rather, there is a met balloon occasionally wound up to great heights on the end of a steel cable. Transgress against that balloon and it will be the last thing you do!
Cranfield passes traffic information relating to the airship when it is operating, but the danger area itself is not normally active during those operations. Looks to me as though your "idiot" was probably doing nothing wrong.
I can't see a NOTAM that activated it last Sunday. Do you think there was one? If so, do you have the reference number please?
2D
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Apparently the most infringed Danger Areas in the UK are D138, 138A & 138B, which cover the Foulness ranges. This is the the north east end of the THames Estuary, Southend is the controlling ATC.
They are not active very often, but when they are, you can't escape as the upper limit is 35,000' occasionally 60,000'.
As an aside, if you had a choice between building an airport on an unstable tidal mudbank, contaminated with tons of unexploded ordnance and home to XX,000s of birds, or a field, which would you choose?
They are not active very often, but when they are, you can't escape as the upper limit is 35,000' occasionally 60,000'.
As an aside, if you had a choice between building an airport on an unstable tidal mudbank, contaminated with tons of unexploded ordnance and home to XX,000s of birds, or a field, which would you choose?
Do you think there are such people as NOTAM number collectors, a bit like train spotters?
BTW if I read the new EASA OPS proposals correctly, we'll all be turned into NOTAM collectors for 30 (or was it 60) days after a flight, with a mandatory requirement to retain briefing info.
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Kolibear
Southend ATC do not 'control' the airspace of the Shoeburyness Danger Areas, but do offer a DAAIS (Danger Area Activity Information Service) for them. So it is always worth giving them a call when intending to fly through the area.
Yes, they are reqularly flown through when active, and I have heard from a reliable source that many such infringements are not reported. Not even all the infringements occur beneath controlled airspace!!
As for not being active very often, I think your definition of often must be different from mine!
4
Southend ATC do not 'control' the airspace of the Shoeburyness Danger Areas, but do offer a DAAIS (Danger Area Activity Information Service) for them. So it is always worth giving them a call when intending to fly through the area.
Yes, they are reqularly flown through when active, and I have heard from a reliable source that many such infringements are not reported. Not even all the infringements occur beneath controlled airspace!!
As for not being active very often, I think your definition of often must be different from mine!
4
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Witnessed a F-5 Tiger intercepting an Cessna 172 in a temporary active CTR in Switzerland (military airport). The Cessna wasn't on the frequency, so the TWR couldn't contact him.
Outcome? Think the F5-Pilot had loads of fun (although he had to deploy full flaps and gear) but registered the a/c's immatriculation. As far as I know they tracked it back and it ended up in a fine for the cessna-pilot
Outcome? Think the F5-Pilot had loads of fun (although he had to deploy full flaps and gear) but registered the a/c's immatriculation. As far as I know they tracked it back and it ended up in a fine for the cessna-pilot
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Innacurate or misleading NOTAMs don't assist either. Flew out to NI yesterday. D402A NOTAMed as active above normal level. It was cold. However, D403B was active which hadn't been NOTAMed at all.
The system isn't perfect or totally reliable, however, I would hope that any pilot would check either with the controlling agency or their FIS provider prior to transiting through any danger area regardless of NOTAMed status.
The system isn't perfect or totally reliable, however, I would hope that any pilot would check either with the controlling agency or their FIS provider prior to transiting through any danger area regardless of NOTAMed status.
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I know this will sound like a stupid statement to the seasoned visitors to ais.org.uk that populate this forum, but...
I reckon at least 50% of GA pilots never check notams and a lot of those are not sufficiently sure of their position to reliably avoid danger areas.
So, if the danger areas were so dangerous that one got reliably shot down with a missile upon entering one, there would be a lot of wreckage about, and clearly there isn't.
Obviously this could be taken as suggesting one can ignore them (nothing of the sort) but, REALLY, if there is something nasty going on, wouldn't the operator be looking at a radar (perhaps a mobile one) and be ready to stop doing whatever they are doing if they see somebody infringing?
Also there are a lot of danger areas for which a telephone number is not readily available - even if one can dig it up if one knows where to look. This is bad because it's no good having to get airborne and fly within say 10 miles of the place before one can call them up on the radio. I used to call up London Info to check e.g. D039 but one may not be able to get a word in edgeways, and I've had to turn around if they took a long time to get through on the phone.
I reckon at least 50% of GA pilots never check notams and a lot of those are not sufficiently sure of their position to reliably avoid danger areas.
So, if the danger areas were so dangerous that one got reliably shot down with a missile upon entering one, there would be a lot of wreckage about, and clearly there isn't.
Obviously this could be taken as suggesting one can ignore them (nothing of the sort) but, REALLY, if there is something nasty going on, wouldn't the operator be looking at a radar (perhaps a mobile one) and be ready to stop doing whatever they are doing if they see somebody infringing?
Also there are a lot of danger areas for which a telephone number is not readily available - even if one can dig it up if one knows where to look. This is bad because it's no good having to get airborne and fly within say 10 miles of the place before one can call them up on the radio. I used to call up London Info to check e.g. D039 but one may not be able to get a word in edgeways, and I've had to turn around if they took a long time to get through on the phone.
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I reckon at least 50% of GA pilots never check notams and a lot of those are not sufficiently sure of their position to reliably avoid danger areas.
The reason why the notam setup had a password put on it was because of the crap the CAA went through when trying to prove that pilots had selfbriefed. Now that you have to log in with notams and wx in official web sites means they can try and prove that you didn't self brief. Or to be honest you have to prove that you have.
Personally a copy of script it and a batch flie means everyday the data for both met and notams gets downloaded to /dev/null if i use it or not just in case!!. The web site has my details that i logged on every day and collect it. Can't say if i actually read it though. Self brief off the company data.
Thankfully though the IT guys they do use arn't that **** hot so there will always be a method around thier wank sytems be it external feeds to third party countrys or shear lack of imagination. You pay peanuts you get monkeys.
MJ
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wouldn't the operator be looking at a radar (perhaps a mobile one) and be ready to stop doing whatever they are doing if they see somebody infringing
The range I quoted earlier is a army and airforce range, and we have no way of stopping the action should we see a infringement. (There are more then 20 ranges in it, and not all have comms.)
You can fly through the range during 155mm artillery fire, and come out the other end, it's just not smart. (Ask the US Army Blackhawk pilot that strayed over a M109 battery as it fired all 6 tubes. He is reported to have **** himself.... )
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Sounds like your based in wales m8 or that fecking rank cess pit of otterburn.
Have seen our american allies getting well worked up when they bend there A10 over a range to come head to head with FH70 or Light gun volley. Twats.....
Most pilots don't actually understand how little technology is in a mil range. They don't understand that most mil training establishments havn't had money thrown at them for the last 20 years and most MIL aircraft if under civi regs wouldn't be allowed to fly in controlled airspace.
And please remember that most sqawdies are thick and taking a sky shot at a plane is fun.
MJ
Have seen our american allies getting well worked up when they bend there A10 over a range to come head to head with FH70 or Light gun volley. Twats.....
Most pilots don't actually understand how little technology is in a mil range. They don't understand that most mil training establishments havn't had money thrown at them for the last 20 years and most MIL aircraft if under civi regs wouldn't be allowed to fly in controlled airspace.
And please remember that most sqawdies are thick and taking a sky shot at a plane is fun.
MJ
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MJ
Interesting points raised regarding logging of self briefings.
I think it is well known that AIS do keep records of a user's activity on their website. But do they log exactly what is retrieved? Unless they do, the logging is completely worthless because the pilot could always claim the TRA or whatever wasn't listed. So, to be useful in defence, your script would need to retrieve a e.g. narrow route briefing for your actual flight!
I also wonder however how long they keep the logs for. When I got accused of infringing some French TRA a while ago, I first heard (from the CAA) nearly 6 months after the flight. Incidentally I am sure that TRA wasn't listed, but another one, further from my track, was. But one cannot tell the French that, so one gets a suitably stroppy letter from the CAA, full of nonsense about poor airmanship because it gets copied to the DGAC. To top it, I was on frequency and on radar at the time - that really shows how some French ATCOs work.
As for weather, a lot of people don't use the Met Office website. Avbrief offers a much better range, and there are other websites which one can use for cloud maps etc. Does Avbrief log user activity, including the actual data retrieved (copies of GIFs, PDFs...)? I very much doubt it. Presumably one needs to print it out and carry it for the flight (I do) and keep the printouts for months afterwards (I don't, who does?).
We can disagree about percentages but 20% is the same as 50% in practice - a lot of people who fly outside the "system" presumably because that's how they've been taught. I was never shown how to use Notams in my PPL training, though that was in the days of the paper system which was hard to use.
Now it's all on the internet but few people are taught to use the internet in their flying school, and very few airfields provide public internet access for such pre-flight briefings for use by pilots not based at a school there.
Interesting points raised regarding logging of self briefings.
I think it is well known that AIS do keep records of a user's activity on their website. But do they log exactly what is retrieved? Unless they do, the logging is completely worthless because the pilot could always claim the TRA or whatever wasn't listed. So, to be useful in defence, your script would need to retrieve a e.g. narrow route briefing for your actual flight!
I also wonder however how long they keep the logs for. When I got accused of infringing some French TRA a while ago, I first heard (from the CAA) nearly 6 months after the flight. Incidentally I am sure that TRA wasn't listed, but another one, further from my track, was. But one cannot tell the French that, so one gets a suitably stroppy letter from the CAA, full of nonsense about poor airmanship because it gets copied to the DGAC. To top it, I was on frequency and on radar at the time - that really shows how some French ATCOs work.
As for weather, a lot of people don't use the Met Office website. Avbrief offers a much better range, and there are other websites which one can use for cloud maps etc. Does Avbrief log user activity, including the actual data retrieved (copies of GIFs, PDFs...)? I very much doubt it. Presumably one needs to print it out and carry it for the flight (I do) and keep the printouts for months afterwards (I don't, who does?).
We can disagree about percentages but 20% is the same as 50% in practice - a lot of people who fly outside the "system" presumably because that's how they've been taught. I was never shown how to use Notams in my PPL training, though that was in the days of the paper system which was hard to use.
Now it's all on the internet but few people are taught to use the internet in their flying school, and very few airfields provide public internet access for such pre-flight briefings for use by pilots not based at a school there.
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SRG makes a valid point.
To call the men and women who lay down their lives for our country thick, especially in times like these, is a downright disgrace - you should be ashamed of yourself MJ.
Mind you suppose you've been shot at? You've done everything else in the world of aviation.
Indeed I may start a poll here, those who have been shot at by a military firing range say aye.
JB
To call the men and women who lay down their lives for our country thick, especially in times like these, is a downright disgrace - you should be ashamed of yourself MJ.
Mind you suppose you've been shot at? You've done everything else in the world of aviation.
Indeed I may start a poll here, those who have been shot at by a military firing range say aye.
JB
Last edited by james brown; 9th Jul 2004 at 16:14.