Mid air over Hertfordshire
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I think you would have to invest in a transponder at least if you wanted to fly within 30NM of e.g. SFO or other major Class B airspace
EA
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I think generally not in the case of the mode C veil - I think its mandatory - but you may be right that you can exceptionally pre-arrange specific flights, as with non-radio flights into controlled airports?
Andy
Andy
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just for info, I found it in the FARs (91.215(b)(3)):
"Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) [describes the mode c vail] of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certified with an engine driven electrical system, or which has not substantially been certified with such a system installed, baloon or glider, may conduct operations in the airspace within 30nm of the airport listed in appendix D, part 1[lists the mode c vails], provided such operations are conducted-
Outside Class A B or C airspace
Below the altitude of the ceiling of the class b or c
blah blah"
Sounds pretty reasonable to me. So if you have a Permit A/c, baloon, microlight, etc then the mode c vail wouldn't apply......
EA
"Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) [describes the mode c vail] of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certified with an engine driven electrical system, or which has not substantially been certified with such a system installed, baloon or glider, may conduct operations in the airspace within 30nm of the airport listed in appendix D, part 1[lists the mode c vails], provided such operations are conducted-
Outside Class A B or C airspace
Below the altitude of the ceiling of the class b or c
blah blah"
Sounds pretty reasonable to me. So if you have a Permit A/c, baloon, microlight, etc then the mode c vail wouldn't apply......
EA
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Mode C veil
I guess that means it would apply to microlights: do they have "engine driven electrical systems", presumably yes?
Cool, so then I think there's probbaly no harm and only potential good to come from a similar stricture here...
... not that this necessarily has anything to do with the accident that triggered this thread: and I still thinka blind calling system on a lane frequency in crowded pinch points might be a better general solution for enhancing safety in these areas.
Andy
Cool, so then I think there's probbaly no harm and only potential good to come from a similar stricture here...
... not that this necessarily has anything to do with the accident that triggered this thread: and I still thinka blind calling system on a lane frequency in crowded pinch points might be a better general solution for enhancing safety in these areas.
Andy
What is all the fuss about Mode A? When I had an aeroplane with a transponder one of the first things I did with it was upgrade it to Mode C. You don't need a new transponder, there are add ons which you can get for 200 or so quid. Make that mandatory and you lose the spurious TCAS warnings that WWW was dramatising. How many mid-air collisions (not including glider - glider collisions) have there been in the last few years? Very few that I can think of. Every aspect of safety has a price fortunately it is not my position to put a price on the risk of a mid-air in terms of mandatory Mode S etc.
I fly in the North London corridor quite often and generally call the airfields concerned to let them know I'm skirting their zones. Most of them don't seem to give a damn. I generally listen out to London Info in between calls as well. My biggest benefit though is that I usually fly during the week rather than the busy weekends..............
I fly in the North London corridor quite often and generally call the airfields concerned to let them know I'm skirting their zones. Most of them don't seem to give a damn. I generally listen out to London Info in between calls as well. My biggest benefit though is that I usually fly during the week rather than the busy weekends..............
It can be dramatic receiving "avoiding action turn.." instructions because so bozo bumbling along Brighton beach has just decided to turn his mode A on.
Stick your heads in the sand if you like. But the first time it happens it'll be the end of GA.
Cheers
WWW
Stick your heads in the sand if you like. But the first time it happens it'll be the end of GA.
Cheers
WWW
Avoid imitations
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Had another close call recently, again very thankfully resolved by TCAS.
Cloud was broken at about 1500 feet. We were just below in good visibility. Called for a transit through an ATZ. No ATC reply but another pilot told us that himself, in a helicopter and one other aircraft were operating in the circuit (which is left hand at 1000ft), giving the westerly runway in use. We had one TCAS target on screen, well ahead, which we took to be the heli operating on the airfield, although we were too far away to see it yet. We were looking for the second aircraft which we expected to be a couple of miles ahead of us and below, somewhere in the pattern. No circuit position calls were heard from it.
As we approached the south eastern ATZ boundary, aiming to route to the east of the field, we suddenly received a "Traffic! Traffic!" alert and a TCAs target simultaneously appeared on the screen, well inside one mile. No aircraft could be seen left or right so we turned hard right to go with the traffic pattern, even further away from the field and hopefully resolve the possible conflict. As we turned, skirting the ATZ boundary, I spotted an aircraft descending out of cloud immediately to our left, just behind and just above! A few seconds later, someone who we presumed to be its pilot called "late downwind".
No mention of the IMC, descending back to circuit height, very wide bit....
We might well have hit had we not turned. NO lookout scan could have avoided that situation by itself. TCAS proved its great worth to us yet again (although an earlier call from the other pilot would have helped - I think he might have been "busy" at the time).
UK airspace is becoming more and more congested, the big open sky concept no longer applies. Sad but true. I really don't understand the mentality that objects to fitting and using something like a transponder with Mode C if possible, which greatly enhances the safety of all concerned. Far better than expensive life insurance, which does nothing for flight safety and at best only works retrospectively and for the benefit of others on the ground....
An increasing number of the bigger stuff have the expensive part of the system (TCAS). All we ask is others make themselves conspicuous by turning the mode knob to the appropriate setting if fitted, or even spending a few hundred quid, so we can use the system to the benefit of all.
Cloud was broken at about 1500 feet. We were just below in good visibility. Called for a transit through an ATZ. No ATC reply but another pilot told us that himself, in a helicopter and one other aircraft were operating in the circuit (which is left hand at 1000ft), giving the westerly runway in use. We had one TCAS target on screen, well ahead, which we took to be the heli operating on the airfield, although we were too far away to see it yet. We were looking for the second aircraft which we expected to be a couple of miles ahead of us and below, somewhere in the pattern. No circuit position calls were heard from it.
As we approached the south eastern ATZ boundary, aiming to route to the east of the field, we suddenly received a "Traffic! Traffic!" alert and a TCAs target simultaneously appeared on the screen, well inside one mile. No aircraft could be seen left or right so we turned hard right to go with the traffic pattern, even further away from the field and hopefully resolve the possible conflict. As we turned, skirting the ATZ boundary, I spotted an aircraft descending out of cloud immediately to our left, just behind and just above! A few seconds later, someone who we presumed to be its pilot called "late downwind".
No mention of the IMC, descending back to circuit height, very wide bit....
We might well have hit had we not turned. NO lookout scan could have avoided that situation by itself. TCAS proved its great worth to us yet again (although an earlier call from the other pilot would have helped - I think he might have been "busy" at the time).
UK airspace is becoming more and more congested, the big open sky concept no longer applies. Sad but true. I really don't understand the mentality that objects to fitting and using something like a transponder with Mode C if possible, which greatly enhances the safety of all concerned. Far better than expensive life insurance, which does nothing for flight safety and at best only works retrospectively and for the benefit of others on the ground....
An increasing number of the bigger stuff have the expensive part of the system (TCAS). All we ask is others make themselves conspicuous by turning the mode knob to the appropriate setting if fitted, or even spending a few hundred quid, so we can use the system to the benefit of all.
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lookout
Only 5 days after the mid air I looked off the end of our runway to see a Robinson R22 practicing autorotations about 1 mile from the mid air site. Some people never learn. Pity I did not get the registration of the cretin who decided to do a bit of flying between the trees practice followed by the low level escape against the circuit pattern last year. He did this 3 times in 1 hour just to prove he was an idiot. I dunno if it was the same person who decided we would like a look at his plane at 10 feet as he did a low pass up the runway this June though. Still now we have a decent camera on site we should be able to put an end to it.
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Only 5 days after the mid air I looked off the end of our runway to see a Robinson R22 practicing autorotations about 1 mile from the mid air site. Some people never learn.
Not so N, but still FG
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If someone was flying like a twit, censure them for that, but not just for flying in the same area as a crash. Where's the lack of compassion? If someone crashes and dies on a runway, are we all supposed to avoid landing on that runway, after the wreckage is removed, for some decent interval thereafter? I am very sorry to hear of this collision, but, as mentioned above, flying doesn't stop because there's been a tragic accident.
Last edited by FNG; 15th Jul 2004 at 09:43.
Paxing All Over The World
Non-pilot speaking and I have read the entire thread. Things that have staggered me in this thread:
Eh? Folks are manipulating themselves around the sky and NOT talking to anyone??? Sounds like they are manipulating themselves. Just amazing.
Eh? In Britain? With our limited air space and all the regional airports opening up and ERJs and CRJs nipping in and out? I can undertsand that you might want to but ...
I was also amazed to read that folks that DO have transponders turn them off! I realise the need to have a circuit breaker, but what are the penalties of making the c/b unavailable to the pilot? This is a serious question - don't just flame - tell me why the transponder cannot be on all the time - just like the sidelights on a Volvo car?
I enjoy a quiet drive around the countryside in my car when I am not working. How about I decide not to signal when I am turning and presume that the traffic lights are set to green in my favour? I have to use everything in my power to stay away from other users of the road. Am I right in understanding that no such laws are required of you in GA? Please tell me what the correct rule of air is.
I can but agree with WWW that, the first mid-air involving a commercial flight that is proven to be the fault a GA (of any type) [Note that I say PROVEN] then you will find yourselves grounded, restricted and more rules and costs than you will ever want.
The concerns about power supplies and batteries and weights are understood and it certainly seems as if the CAA ought to be doing something to generate suitable equipment. But no govt department works on 'Prevention' any more. They all work on 'Clearing up the mess' and then the Politicos say "... that this will never happen again." So the CAA are not going to do anything until after they have received the phone call.
I do hope that GA can continue as I know what it meant to relatives of mine in the past but we are in the future now and the law of averages has a way of making itself known. Of all the threads that I have read on PPRuNe since I joined - this is the one that has surprised, and frightened, me the most.
But there are pilots out there (and I have in mind some well trained (ex mil) pilots) who simply hate using the radio and would not use it.
When I fly from home outside CAS I just want to have FUN, No radio, No transponder, just look out the bloody window and have a bit of FUN
I was also amazed to read that folks that DO have transponders turn them off! I realise the need to have a circuit breaker, but what are the penalties of making the c/b unavailable to the pilot? This is a serious question - don't just flame - tell me why the transponder cannot be on all the time - just like the sidelights on a Volvo car?
I enjoy a quiet drive around the countryside in my car when I am not working. How about I decide not to signal when I am turning and presume that the traffic lights are set to green in my favour? I have to use everything in my power to stay away from other users of the road. Am I right in understanding that no such laws are required of you in GA? Please tell me what the correct rule of air is.
I can but agree with WWW that, the first mid-air involving a commercial flight that is proven to be the fault a GA (of any type) [Note that I say PROVEN] then you will find yourselves grounded, restricted and more rules and costs than you will ever want.
The concerns about power supplies and batteries and weights are understood and it certainly seems as if the CAA ought to be doing something to generate suitable equipment. But no govt department works on 'Prevention' any more. They all work on 'Clearing up the mess' and then the Politicos say "... that this will never happen again." So the CAA are not going to do anything until after they have received the phone call.
I do hope that GA can continue as I know what it meant to relatives of mine in the past but we are in the future now and the law of averages has a way of making itself known. Of all the threads that I have read on PPRuNe since I joined - this is the one that has surprised, and frightened, me the most.
I was also amazed to read that folks that DO have transponders turn them off! I realise the need to have a circuit breaker, but what are the penalties of making the c/b unavailable to the pilot? This is a serious question - don't just flame - tell me why the transponder cannot be on all the time - just like the sidelights on a Volvo car?
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I hear BALPA are aiming to get rid of ALL uncontrolled airspace!
WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO CONTROL IT ALL THEN??
I appreciate that transponders can be faulty and go tits up, but aircraft with broken transponders are not allowed in controlled airspace.
WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO CONTROL IT ALL THEN??
I appreciate that transponders can be faulty and go tits up, but aircraft with broken transponders are not allowed in controlled airspace.
PAXboy: "Eh? Folks are manipulating themselves around the sky and NOT talking to anyone??? Sounds like they are manipulating themselves. Just amazing."
VP:
Pray tell, what do you think the ratio of cars on the roads to aircraft in the sky is?
Do you have a radio in your car? Do you use it to talk to the highway controller to determine whether the congestion level on your intended route is acceptable to allow you to drive down it safely? Surely, as roads are many thousands of times more congested than airspace radios and transponders should be mandatory, to reduce the all too apparent risk of collisions?
Get real! Thousands of us fly sans radio quite safely. We use exactly tha same safety device that you do when driving a car, our eyes. The major difference is that we are pretty unlikely to come close to another aircraft most of the time, unlike someone driving a car.
I think you also need to realise that there are literally thousands of aircraft with NO electrical systems, so they cannot be easily fitted with radios or transponders.
VP:
Pray tell, what do you think the ratio of cars on the roads to aircraft in the sky is?
Do you have a radio in your car? Do you use it to talk to the highway controller to determine whether the congestion level on your intended route is acceptable to allow you to drive down it safely? Surely, as roads are many thousands of times more congested than airspace radios and transponders should be mandatory, to reduce the all too apparent risk of collisions?
Get real! Thousands of us fly sans radio quite safely. We use exactly tha same safety device that you do when driving a car, our eyes. The major difference is that we are pretty unlikely to come close to another aircraft most of the time, unlike someone driving a car.
I think you also need to realise that there are literally thousands of aircraft with NO electrical systems, so they cannot be easily fitted with radios or transponders.
The Original Whirly
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Eh? Folks are manipulating themselves around the sky and NOT talking to anyone??? Sounds like they are manipulating themselves. Just amazing.
Most uncontrolled airspace is uncontrolled for a good reason - simply that it isn't crowded. North Wales, where I live and spend a lot of time flying, is equivalent to the country roads you talk about...but you don't find traffic lights on North Wales country roads and there are few aircraft in the sky. So it IS safe to fly non-radio - at lowish speeds compared to airliners, remember, about equivalent to you at second gear in your car. And who would we talk to? London Information, the only centre covering that area, have only a map, no radar, and hardly know where any of the places you mention are when you tell them your position. Aside from anywhere near Valley, Liverpool, Hawarden, Caernarfon, Shawbury, or Welshpool, it really is quiet up here. Near any of those places, of course you talk to someone!!!
In Scotland, it's even less crowded. In fact, in some areas of the Highlands you're out of radio range to anyone!!!!
And in Ireland, talking to Donegal, we were told: "No known traffic to affect your flight; report final". Nothing odd in that...except that we were over 20 miles away. The area being discussed on this thread is one of the few areas of uncontrolled airspace which IS crowded. That's why so many of us feel something needs to be done. But we don't want regulations made which would have to involve huge expense, and which would apply for those of us flying only in the more isolated areas of the country, OK? It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
I've been refraining from saying you don't know what you're talking about here. The fact is, you don't, but I don't mean that as a criticism. I daresay you speak for thousands of non-pilots, so realising what needs explaining to the world is useful for all us; thankyou.
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PAXboy, you are really something,
I said "When I fly from home outside CAS I just want to have FUN, No radio, No transponder, just look out the bloody window and have a bit of FUN"
Well I just did that this morning and it was great.
Tony
I said "When I fly from home outside CAS I just want to have FUN, No radio, No transponder, just look out the bloody window and have a bit of FUN"
Well I just did that this morning and it was great.
Tony