Flying an N reg in Eire on my JAA PPL

[Dunc]

Quick question.

I am collecting my new purchase soon from Knock in Eire. The plane is on the N reg and my FAA PPL will not be through in time. I believe I can get the permission of the Irish CAA to fly it out on my JAR PPL. Anyone know how to contact them? I was also told I could get the permission from the FAA is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

Duncan

[TonyR]

Is that the Mooney?

I dont think you even need permission from the IAA, but if you ask they may say no.

If your worried about getting it out of Knock I would be happy to fly it to Belfast (or anywhere) for you. I have FAA CAA & IAA licences

PM me anytime

Tony

[bookworm]

This is one where I think 2Donks and I have different opinions.

The IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY (PERSONNEL LICENSING) ORDER, 2000 says:

(2) A person shall not, within the territorial limits of the State, act as a flight crew member of an aircraft registered in any other state unless —
...
(b) in the case of a private aircraft, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence, issued or validated by the competent licensing authority of the state in which the aircraft is registered or by the Authority, or a JAA licence.

That in itself gives you the authority to fly an N-reg aircraft in Ireland on a JAA licence.

However, FAR Pt61 requires that the pilot of an N-reg

(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot
authorization issued under this part in that person's physical
possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used

and therein lies the problem. Your JAA licence is not issued by Ireland.

Unless you happen to be a US citizen, I don't believe the FARs apply except as incorporated by Irish law (for example for airworthiness, or regarding the validity of licences issued by the FAA). Since you're not committing a war crime, I doubt that the US would seek to apply its law extraterritorially in direct conflict with Irish law. But it may be worth checking with your insurer to confirm that they are aware of the circumstances -- policies often include a "comply with all relevant regulations" condition, and I can imagine it being an issue they might use it as a wriggle.

[2Donkeys]

This is one where I think 2Donks and I have different opinions.

I don't think so, as I read your post bookworm we are of one mind.

The FAA will not let you fly an aircraft that has an N on the side unles either:

a) You have a valid FAA ticket; or

b) You have an otherwise valid ticket issued by the country in which you wish to fly

For the time being (until EASA-FCL perhaps) your JAA ticket remains issued by a single country, presumably not Ireland in your case... therefore under FAA rules, you may not fly there.

Whether or not action would be taken against you in real life is a different question. The legality is pretty clear.

2D

Edited to say that we do differ in this regard. You say:

Unless you happen to be a US citizen, I don\'t believe the FARs apply except as incorporated by Irish law

To the extent that the aircraft is on the US registry, the governing legislation relating to its use, including who may fly it, are the FARs. Non FAA-certificated airmen may only fly it because part 61 says so.

2D

[TonyR]

Upon checking it would appear that the two posts above are correct according to FAR 61.3 (a) " an FAA licence or a valid licence issued by the country in which he intendes to fly"

Contact Kevin Swords at the IAA,

Telephone [phone]
Fax [phone]
Email [email protected]

As I said if you need me to help just ask.

Tony

[bookworm]

To the extent that the aircraft is on the US registry, the governing legislation relating to its use, including who may fly it, are the FARs. Non FAA-certificated airmen may only fly it because part 61 says so.

Why should I, as a UK citizen in Ireland, pay the slightest bit of notice to a piece of legislation coming from a third state?

(There, told you we differed )

[2Donkeys]

Because you are operating an aircraft whose airworthiness, operations and registry are governed by the laws of that country.

Because it happens to be in Ireland, Irish airworthiness regulations do not apply, unless they are more restrictive

Because it happens to be in Ireland, Irish crewing regulations don't apply, unless they happen to be more restrictive.

The rules for the operation of any ICAO aircraft are first and foremost governed by the land which registers the aircraft. The only bearing that local rules have is the extent to which they are more restrictive than the rules of the country of registration.

IMHO!

2D

[bookworm]

Because you are operating an aircraft whose airworthiness, operations and registry are governed by the laws of that country.
...snip...
The rules for the operation of any ICAO aircraft are first and foremost governed by the land which registers the aircraft. The only bearing that local rules have is the extent to which they are more restrictive than the rules of the country of registration.

That's not how I read the Chicago Convention. It grants certain rights to foreign registered aircraft in the territory of another state. It does not prohibit states from having more permissive regulations within their own territory, even with respect to the operation of foreign-registered aircraft.

But I might be missing something in an Annex somewhere -- can you cite anything to the contrary?

[2Donkeys]

Well I would draw some inspiration from ICAO Annex 1 (my emphasis)


1.2.1 Authority to act as a flight crew member

A person shall not act as a flight crew member of an aircraft unless a valid licence is held showing compliance with the specifications of this Annex and appropriate to the duties to be performed by that person. The licence shall have been issued by the State of Registry of that aircraft or by any other Contracting State and rendered valid by the State of Registry of that aircraft.

To that extent, the FARs are rather more permissive than the ICAO Annex, but not the the extent you seem to desire bookworm

2D

[Dunc]

Thanks for that I shall email the IAA and see what they say. Yes it is the Mooney. Thanks for the offer Tony. If all else fails I have friends who hold FAA PPL's who can come and sit in it to make it legal.

Is France the same as I shall be using it to go to my home there and I do not know who long my FAA PPL will take to arrive?

I suppose it makes no difference that I am an Irish Citizen holding a JAR PPL issued in the UK?

Thanks again.

Duncan

[2Donkeys]

In anticipation of what the IAA will say:

"We cannot make definitive statements about aircraft registered overseas, however, the privileges of a JAR PPL are fully valid in Ireland."

The DGAC will say similar things about France.

Whether or not you can fly legally, depends on whether you believe you are bound by FAR 61.3(a) whilst flying an N-registered aircraft.

The FAA will tell you that you are, regardless of where you are born. bookworm feels differently, but I don't know whether the ICAO Annex I cite above alters his viewpoint.

Certainly, when the subject is France, I think it would be a big mistake to be ramp-checked in France in an N-reg aircraft without either an FAA licence, or a French-issued licence.

When you move from Ireland to France, you are moving from the realm of theoretical exposure to genuine risk.

2D

[bookworm]

The FAA will tell you that you are, regardless of where you are born. bookworm feels differently, but I don't know whether the ICAO Annex I cite above alters his viewpoint.

No, it doesn't change my view. In a sense, the very rigidity of Annex 1 1.2.1 in contrast to the national law of UK and Ireland suggests to me that the condition intended to apply to those exercising their Chicago Convention rights, not a mandate restricting the scope of national law. Note also that while the Chicago Convention could have said that rules regarding foreign registered aircraft are left up to the state of registry (or at least have said that the more restrictive applies), it does not. The explicit delegation to foreign regulation is very limited.

Certainly, when the subject is France, I think it would be a big mistake to be ramp-checked in France in an N-reg aircraft without either an FAA licence, or a French-issued licence.

Do you really feel that the French ramp-checkers would be so well versed in the FARs that they would distinguish between a French licence and a JAA licence that would be valid for flight in an F-reg?

That said, if my recollection of French regulation is correct, then I do agree with that as a point of law. The French offer no analogy to the UK or Irish alternative of a national or JAA licence for a foreign registered aircraft. The pilot of a foreign registered aircraft is required to have a licence granted or rendered valid by the state of registry, period. For an N-reg, that means an FAA or French one.

[IO540]

This is a digression from a very interesting debate, but has there been any more news on the Irish CAA and FAA Class 3 medicals?

[2Donkeys]

IO540

I believe that Flyin Dutch (an FAA AME) was going to ask some questions and come back to us.


bookworm

I am not sure where you can take your line of argument.

The FARs are quite clear about the licences required, and the JARs claim no authority over the operation of foreign registered aircraft.

The ICAO Annexes to which you were previously faithful appear to take a more limited view of who may fly the aircraft of a contracting state than you would like, although the FARs are more generous in respect of N-regs.

Nothing I've seen so far grants the right to operate an N-reg in contravention of the FARs.

Do you really feel that the French ramp-checkers would be so well versed in the FARs that they would distinguish between a French licence and a JAA licence that would be valid for flight in an F-reg?

Strictly speaking, I suppose this question is irrelevant, since we are talking about what is legal, as opposed to what you can get away with. For the record though, at my last two ramp checks (flying an N in France, both within the last 2 months), the officials concerned carried documentation including specimen licences and ratings from the UK and the US (amongst others), with explanations of the wording. Once it was established that I had connections to a certain aviation magazine, the officials concerned were kind enough to give me a look. In the past, I would have been in agreement, the Douanier had no idea what he was looking at, these days, I suspect you could be caught out.

But that is all about what you can get away with, not what is legal... two different discussions.

2D

[TonyR]

I would suggest that, FAR 61.3 (a) " an FAA licence or a valid licence issued by the country in which he intendes to fly" would apply worldwide.

I also had a ramp check in France and the offical was most concerned that my UK licence had an Irish JAA medical inserted in it, I would prefer to keep to the book in this one.

If you want to fly a "N" reg then get an FAA licence.

Was thinking of a new FAA/CAA/IAA/JAA motto: We're not happy, till you're not happy.

[Flyin'Dutch']

IO540
I believe that Flyin Dutch (an FAA AME) was going to ask some questions and come back to us.

I did as promised, but that was in th'other place!

My contacts in the FAA medical department informed me that this was centred on class 3s 'special issuances'

You will know if you have one of those.

He could of course not comment on what third parties (ie the IAA's standpoint was)

FD

[2Donkeys]

I did as promised, but that was in th'other place!

Whoops!

Thanks FD

[bookworm]

The FARs are quite clear about the licences required, and the JARs claim no authority over the operation of foreign registered aircraft.

Well I don't see the JARs are relevant except as incorporated in national law. Running through the ANO, the following articles claim authority over the operation of foreign-registered aircraft in the UK.

3,5,8,14,15,20,39,46,49,... and so on.

In fact the UK proposes, in its draft amendments of Nov 2003, revision of Article 43 (Pre-Flight Actions of Commander) for the precise purpose of making it applicable to foreign-registered aircraft.

The Chicago Convention itself doesn't exactly leave much room for doubt in Art 11:

"Subject to the provisions of this Convention, the laws and regulations of a contracting State relating to the admission to or departure from its territory of aircraft engaged in international air navigation, or to the operation and navigation of such aircraft while within its territory, shall be applied to the aircraft of all contracting States without distinction as to nationality, and shall be complied with by such aircraft upon entering or departing from or while within the territory of that State."

Certain aspects of the operation of the aircraft are delegated to the state of registry, but there is no blanket authority given to foreign powers to give them jurisdiction over the operation of aircraft registered with them when those aircraft are flying in the UK.

The ICAO Annexes to which you were previously faithful appear to take a more limited view of who may fly the aircraft of a contracting state than you would like, although the FARs are more generous in respect of N-regs.

Fidelity is a strange beast.

Annex 1 2.1.1.1 says

"A person shall not act either as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of an aircraft ... unless than person is the holder of a pilot licence issued in accordance with this Chapter."

If the UK says that an NPPL is good enough, even though it doesn't meet the standards of that chapter, why shouldn't it be?

The answer is surely that the Annex was part of a convention intended to facilitate international civil aviation, and not restrict the rights of a sovereign nation to permit such acts in its territory as it sees fit.

Nothing I've seen so far grants the right to operate an N-reg in contravention of the FARs.

Nothing I've seen so far grants me the right to operate this ballpoint pen in contravention of the laws of the Republic of China where it was manufactured, and where it may even be registered for all I know. Should I care? If not, what precisely makes an aircraft special?

[2Donkeys]

Reduction to the absurd.

Time to wrap this one up perhaps.

[TonyR]

I agree, I gave up a few hours ago