Running out of fuel (again)
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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A point slightly at a tangent here, but nevertheless relevant.
How many of you can reel off the engine failure checks (i.e. the why checks) unerringly. I suggest that the longer it is since you passed the PPL the less likely.
A personal experience (a long time ago now) brought this home to me. I was flying an Arrow (fuel in both wings). I was on final approach (fortunately) and the engine coughed and spluttered. I used my remaining power to adjust my aiming point to the centre of the runway, and did the checks -> mix rich, fuel check, fuel pump on, mags. I landed, the engine stopped as I taxied back.
Can you spot what I missed......?
When I checked the fuel gauges as part of the failure checks they both said a quarter full. Now the left tank said empty, the needle was probably "unstuck" by my brown trousered landing. Yes you spotted it, the first thing I should have done was change tanks.
You could argue that it was poor fuel management, and I wouldn't argue back, but I still had an good three-quarters of an hour fuel in the other tank, so I didn't run out.
But, now I always review the engine failure procedures of any aircraft I fly before I fly. Lesson learned for me (oh and by the way, I'm much better at fuel management now as well!!
)
How many of you can reel off the engine failure checks (i.e. the why checks) unerringly. I suggest that the longer it is since you passed the PPL the less likely.
A personal experience (a long time ago now) brought this home to me. I was flying an Arrow (fuel in both wings). I was on final approach (fortunately) and the engine coughed and spluttered. I used my remaining power to adjust my aiming point to the centre of the runway, and did the checks -> mix rich, fuel check, fuel pump on, mags. I landed, the engine stopped as I taxied back.
Can you spot what I missed......?
When I checked the fuel gauges as part of the failure checks they both said a quarter full. Now the left tank said empty, the needle was probably "unstuck" by my brown trousered landing. Yes you spotted it, the first thing I should have done was change tanks.
You could argue that it was poor fuel management, and I wouldn't argue back, but I still had an good three-quarters of an hour fuel in the other tank, so I didn't run out.
But, now I always review the engine failure procedures of any aircraft I fly before I fly. Lesson learned for me (oh and by the way, I'm much better at fuel management now as well!!
)
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The 172's 4hr provides far less margin of error
I doubt that there would be a big difference in endurance between the 172 and the Warrior, otherwise Piper would have a significant marketing advantage.
As far as I know all our club 172's are fitted with steps, and have individually calibrated dipsticks, and I always dip the tanks before going flying. Interestingly the fuel logs tend to underestimate the ammount of fuel in the planes.
TonyR's point about having enough fuel to divert even if only doing circuits is something that everyone should take on board. Two or three years ago I went for a half hour evening flight at my club. Not long after I got airbourn an aircraft got stuck in soft ground near to the hard runway, causing ATC to close the runway for nearly an hour. Fortunately I'd refuelled the aircraft before I went, so instead of having not much more than 1.5 hours fuel, I was more worried about running out of daylight than fuel. If I hadn't refuelled then it would have been an immediate divert to the neighbouring airfield, which is only ten minutes away.
Brooklands
There may not be a carb heat in an Arrow, but it should be 1st item on a from-memory checklist for anyone who flies SEP's
Afterall, we were all taught BUMFFICH on our PA38/C152's despite having fixed gear.
M9
Afterall, we were all taught BUMFFICH on our PA38/C152's despite having fixed gear.
M9
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I suppose.....
Fuel guages in typical light aircraft are A) useless unless showing empty, B) very small and c) often insignificant little "meters" which flick all over the place.
Fuel guages in typical light aircraft are A) useless unless showing empty, B) very small and c) often insignificant little "meters" which flick all over the place.
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There may not be a carb heat in an Arrow, but it should be 1st item on a from-memory checklist for anyone who flies SEP's
There is less unanimity around the precise sequence of desired pilot actions when the engine stutters in an SEP than there is about downwind checks.
The "equivalent", such as there is one in an injected engine is "alternative air". You certainly wouldn't waste time thinking about that, even for a split second, in preference to selecting a different tank, and getting the fuel pump on - unless you were flying in conditions which would lead to air-inlet icing being a real possibility.
As it happens, I'm not sure that I would go for carb heat first in a carb. engine unless the circumstances were such that carb ice was a real possibility.
From-memory checklists are superb things until the day they stop you thinking about the true nature of the problem.
All IMHO of course
2D
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There are many aircraft out there that can't be visually checked.... think of the Katana's and many power gliders like the G 109's. In these cases you must either depend on the gauges, depend on the fuel entries in the books (did the previous pilot refuel BEFORE or AFTER his flight?), or just generally fuel to the top (ok, I only weigh 48 kilos so have no weight problem 
). If the book says 35 liters at 75% power and 40 at full power, guess what I'll calculate? sure, the 40 liters... I might get surprised head winds or other siturations while aloft... no thanks.. rather give myself more of a safety margine (yes, I admit to having had a close call once.... long ago )
We just had a case over here... no details yet except that afte a long, 6 hour flight, a plane's motor when out on final.... (sorry, type unknown at the moment)... they had to pull him off the runway by hand.... you guessed it, no fuel... and no fuel cap either!
(eh, pre-flight?). The pilot is a very experienced one... so, back to the suggestion about "complacency"...
Westy
). If the book says 35 liters at 75% power and 40 at full power, guess what I'll calculate? sure, the 40 liters... I might get surprised head winds or other siturations while aloft... no thanks.. rather give myself more of a safety margine (yes, I admit to having had a close call once.... long ago )We just had a case over here... no details yet except that afte a long, 6 hour flight, a plane's motor when out on final.... (sorry, type unknown at the moment)... they had to pull him off the runway by hand.... you guessed it, no fuel... and no fuel cap either!
(eh, pre-flight?). The pilot is a very experienced one... so, back to the suggestion about "complacency"...Westy
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There are many aircraft out there that can't be visually checked.... think of the Katana's and many power gliders like the G 109's. In these cases you must either depend on the gauges, depend on the fuel entries in the books (did the previous pilot refuel BEFORE or AFTER his flight?), or just generally fuel to the top
I have seen a practically empty tank twice during my self fly hire days, in a PA28, when the tech log said something like "3hrs".
What do people do in twins e.g. a Seneca which if filled up to a visible point can't carry more than about 3 people? I suppose that these are self fly hired less often so the pilot tends to know what he is doing. The one notable recent exception that did run out was a self fly hire case...
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Have only flown a Katana twice, and that was a few years ago, but if I remember correctly it had a dip stick that was for all intents and purposes like a contoured straw. It was contoured to fit into the tank, but still able to come out via the fuel cap opening. You put it into the tank, put your finger over the top, to close off the opening on the staw, and took it out. Magically you had a fuel feading, even though you couldn't see the fuel at all. I imagine others are the same???
dp
dp
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I remember correctly it had a dip stick
Westy
Surely it's time that manufacturers were obliged to fit devices which:
1. Prevent carburettor icing automatically.
2. Display accurate fuel-in-tanks indications.
In fact, why are we still having to rely upon such primitive and inefficient engines which haven't advanced much in the last 30+ years? Compared with modern automobile engines, most light ac engines are utterly ancient with their magneto ignition and carburettor systems!
By now most piston engined GA aircraft should have dual-redundant FADEC controlled direct injection systems - those with wobbly props should have single-lever integrated power/rpm/mixture control to give optimum performance and economy throughout the speed range.
And if a manufacturer can't fit an accurate fuel gauging system to the a/c, then it shouldn't be certificated!
1. Prevent carburettor icing automatically.
2. Display accurate fuel-in-tanks indications.
In fact, why are we still having to rely upon such primitive and inefficient engines which haven't advanced much in the last 30+ years? Compared with modern automobile engines, most light ac engines are utterly ancient with their magneto ignition and carburettor systems!
By now most piston engined GA aircraft should have dual-redundant FADEC controlled direct injection systems - those with wobbly props should have single-lever integrated power/rpm/mixture control to give optimum performance and economy throughout the speed range.
And if a manufacturer can't fit an accurate fuel gauging system to the a/c, then it shouldn't be certificated!
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I think it comes down to manufacturing numbers and getting things certified.
Most of us are left with old a/c to work with.
Still, I think that we should know the a/c well enough not to have a problem.
If in doubt add fuel or don't fly.
I hire at the moment and the school at times would try to tell us that the a/c does not need fuel, "there is enough do do you", (as in 1 1/2 hours fuel for a local 30 min flight)
But what if the airport closed due to an incident or something?
NO EXCUSE.
Most of us are left with old a/c to work with.
Still, I think that we should know the a/c well enough not to have a problem.
If in doubt add fuel or don't fly.
I hire at the moment and the school at times would try to tell us that the a/c does not need fuel, "there is enough do do you", (as in 1 1/2 hours fuel for a local 30 min flight)
But what if the airport closed due to an incident or something?
NO EXCUSE.
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Quote:
I hire at the moment and the school at times would try to tell us that the a/c does not need fuel, "there is enough do do you", (as in 1 1/2 hours fuel for a local 30 min flight)
Depends where your planned alternate is.
I hire at the moment and the school at times would try to tell us that the a/c does not need fuel, "there is enough do do you", (as in 1 1/2 hours fuel for a local 30 min flight)
Depends where your planned alternate is.
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Quite an interesting topic for me.
I runa C421 - I buy the fuel in litres, the guages shown in pounds, the mixtures are leaned using either EGT or fuel flow - I like EGT, my engineers say use fuel flow as EGT is likely to be the most innacurate.
There are no ways of checking visually, but as I am the only pilot then I know what is in it - approximately.
the problems start to arise when I have to consider CofG issues if I have a few passengers - build in a bit of slack for fuel useage as the aircraft is heavier, and build in a bit of slack for the CofG and you end up in an "educated guesswork" situation.
The port engine burns more fuel than the starboard engine just to add another factor into the equation.
This in an aircraft certified for public transport.
How many of us say - "the aircraft burns roughly x litres an hour, payload is roughly x kilos, the CofG is roughly within limits" etc. etc.
I doubt there are many people who know exactly how much fuel is onboard unless the tanks are full.
Combine all of these elements, with an experienced pilot and an unexpected unindicated increased fuel burn and no wonder occasionally people run out.
I runa C421 - I buy the fuel in litres, the guages shown in pounds, the mixtures are leaned using either EGT or fuel flow - I like EGT, my engineers say use fuel flow as EGT is likely to be the most innacurate.
There are no ways of checking visually, but as I am the only pilot then I know what is in it - approximately.
the problems start to arise when I have to consider CofG issues if I have a few passengers - build in a bit of slack for fuel useage as the aircraft is heavier, and build in a bit of slack for the CofG and you end up in an "educated guesswork" situation.
The port engine burns more fuel than the starboard engine just to add another factor into the equation.
This in an aircraft certified for public transport.
How many of us say - "the aircraft burns roughly x litres an hour, payload is roughly x kilos, the CofG is roughly within limits" etc. etc.
I doubt there are many people who know exactly how much fuel is onboard unless the tanks are full.
Combine all of these elements, with an experienced pilot and an unexpected unindicated increased fuel burn and no wonder occasionally people run out.
"Trust Me"
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Spoilt with unusually accurate fuel gauges on my DR400, but at least the wing tanks can be visually checked.
We also enter in fuel amounts on the log sheet in order that one can see when the plane was fueled and how much and back track the flying times from that.
Also spoilt with a load lugger where it's easy just to fill up the tanks and not worry for four or five hours!!
If fuel crucial, i.e. when strip flying, will allow flight time + ten minutes per leg for taxiing and a forty five minute reserve -seems to have worked for me for the last ten years.
DOC
We also enter in fuel amounts on the log sheet in order that one can see when the plane was fueled and how much and back track the flying times from that.
Also spoilt with a load lugger where it's easy just to fill up the tanks and not worry for four or five hours!!
If fuel crucial, i.e. when strip flying, will allow flight time + ten minutes per leg for taxiing and a forty five minute reserve -seems to have worked for me for the last ten years.
DOC
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After a close shave with a low fuel situation several years ago, I'm ultra-conservative with my fuel planning. On that occasion I was flying in the western USA on a long cross-country and the destination was nearest alternates were all affected by crosswinds way beyond the recommended limits for the aircraft. This required a longer than planned diversion leg. Usable fuel remaining on landing was about 6 USG (in a PA-28-181), or about 40 minutes flying time. Too close for comfort for me, especially considering the unfriendly mountainous terrain we were flying over. At the time, of course, the fuel gauges were only showing very low indications and I didn't know the actual amount of fuel until we landed and checked the tanks. A contributory factor to this situation was incorrect mixture leaning for part of the flight, and stronger than forecast headwinds.
My own method since then is to add adequate diversion fuel (minimum 30 minutes), plus 45 minutes holding/go-around fuel, plus 1 hour reserve fuel to the route fuel for every flight. No exceptions, even in the circuit. It sometimes results in shorter legs than ideal, but this is infinitely preferable to that gut-squirming feeling you get when you know there's not much juice left in the tanks. Believe me, if you haven't been there, you don't want to go there.
Lack of knowledge of actual fuel consumption rate is probably a common cause of low fuel problems. In the group C182 that I used to have a share in, I calculated the actual fuel burn using data from several cross-country flights. These flights cruised at around 5000 - 6000 ft and I leaned the mixture for 65% power in the cruise using power/rpm settings shown in the pilot's operating handbook. The actual cruise fuel burn was 12% higher than the quoted figures in the POH. A significant difference in fuel planning calculations.
My own method since then is to add adequate diversion fuel (minimum 30 minutes), plus 45 minutes holding/go-around fuel, plus 1 hour reserve fuel to the route fuel for every flight. No exceptions, even in the circuit. It sometimes results in shorter legs than ideal, but this is infinitely preferable to that gut-squirming feeling you get when you know there's not much juice left in the tanks. Believe me, if you haven't been there, you don't want to go there.
Lack of knowledge of actual fuel consumption rate is probably a common cause of low fuel problems. In the group C182 that I used to have a share in, I calculated the actual fuel burn using data from several cross-country flights. These flights cruised at around 5000 - 6000 ft and I leaned the mixture for 65% power in the cruise using power/rpm settings shown in the pilot's operating handbook. The actual cruise fuel burn was 12% higher than the quoted figures in the POH. A significant difference in fuel planning calculations.