Spotting other aircraft in the air......
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Spotting other aircraft in the air......
Hi all. I went to Compton Abbas yesterday in the afternoon. Flying to and from there from Shoreham I missed seeing about three aeroplanes that were quite close by. The pilot (Cloud69) spotted quite a few going by but I missed them completely when I should have easily seen them. Mind you, the sky was a bit grey and there were showers around so that didn't help either. I was just wondering if any of you find it easy seeing other aircraft close by or not and have you ever though "pheeeew, where did he come from...." etc....... 
Lookout is, I believe, an acquired skill!
I seem to recall from various articles on lookout that ones eyes have to be stationary in order to pick out things like aircraft at range, so when you scan the horizon best to chunk it by moving eyes about 10 - 20 degrees in azimuth and then stop before continuing.
There are many other factors affecting lookout of course but another to mention is to beware of physical obstructions to lookout such as canopy stays, struts etc. - it is necessary to moves ones head to guard these areas.
Also, make sure you start with a spotlessly clean windscreen - an aircraft at range will merge with a windscreen full of squashed flies!
I seem to recall from various articles on lookout that ones eyes have to be stationary in order to pick out things like aircraft at range, so when you scan the horizon best to chunk it by moving eyes about 10 - 20 degrees in azimuth and then stop before continuing.
There are many other factors affecting lookout of course but another to mention is to beware of physical obstructions to lookout such as canopy stays, struts etc. - it is necessary to moves ones head to guard these areas.
Also, make sure you start with a spotlessly clean windscreen - an aircraft at range will merge with a windscreen full of squashed flies!
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What BRL doesn't tell you is that he spotted a couple before I did, and it was a very murky day on occassion 
Also that he spotted Stoney X before I did on the way back, not that we were at all temporarily unsure of our position
BRL
You got those photo's sorted???
Cloud
Also that he spotted Stoney X before I did on the way back, not that we were at all temporarily unsure of our position
BRL
You got those photo's sorted???
Cloud
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"I was just wondering if any of you find it easy seeing other aircraft close by or not and have you ever though "pheeeew, where did he come from...." "
No, and yes, all the time
To be fair however, consider driving the same distance. You will pass thousands of other cars, on a reciprocal heading, within a few feet of you, at closing speeds of the same order of magnitude, and you will be subject to the less than favourable statistics for several times as long.
No, and yes, all the time
To be fair however, consider driving the same distance. You will pass thousands of other cars, on a reciprocal heading, within a few feet of you, at closing speeds of the same order of magnitude, and you will be subject to the less than favourable statistics for several times as long.
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Hi Cloud, they can be found here www.evo.me.uk Look for picture numbers 127_2790 to 127_2800 and also look out for picture numbers 128_2801 to 128_2814. They are pretty big, kept original sizes if you want to download them at home.
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I find it is as hard to see others on bright days as well. I guess some you just don't see. Especially if there is a bit of haze as well.
I have found that a grey tint sunny is better than brown for spotting other A/C. I guess it is probably different for different people.
Mind you try it in the US where the weekend warriors love to fly in formation and adjust their heading to "steak arround you".
I have found that a grey tint sunny is better than brown for spotting other A/C. I guess it is probably different for different people.
Mind you try it in the US where the weekend warriors love to fly in formation and adjust their heading to "steak arround you".
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Nice photos guys... was in two minds whether to take the kids to the beach at Bournemouth on Sunday but didn't due to the showers forecast. Instead just bimbled around Oxfordshire where there were a few showers but not as bad as it looked in your photos.
In fact it was quite busy around our way (Wycombe - Waltham - CPT - Oxford - BNN - Wycombe), I think we saw about a dozen a/c nearby during the sortie, but it seemed easier than usual to spot them for some reason: maybe the good vis away from the showers?
But who knows what I didn't see that I ought to have..!
Andy
In fact it was quite busy around our way (Wycombe - Waltham - CPT - Oxford - BNN - Wycombe), I think we saw about a dozen a/c nearby during the sortie, but it seemed easier than usual to spot them for some reason: maybe the good vis away from the showers?
But who knows what I didn't see that I ought to have..!
Andy
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Lookout principle - Makes you scared?
Hey,
reading some other posts on lookout, and the number of mid-air collisions, I really can lie awake at night.
I love flying, but I realy HATE the look-out system.
We do have technology for it now.
However, I don't want to discuss the system in itself.
I would like to know if there are more like me "out there" who are really scared by the idea of... well lets not even mention it.
Anybody?
reading some other posts on lookout, and the number of mid-air collisions, I really can lie awake at night.
I love flying, but I realy HATE the look-out system.
We do have technology for it now.
However, I don't want to discuss the system in itself.
I would like to know if there are more like me "out there" who are really scared by the idea of... well lets not even mention it.
Anybody?
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the number of mid-air collisions
Andy
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 22nd Jun 2004 at 05:52.
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I had that feeling of trepidation when hours building in Florida however, it does wear off in time. Believe the term used is "complacency". 
Seriously now, you can always lighten your stressload by tuning into the relevant ATC frequency regardless of whether the station is open or not. When a station is closed give a position report and request traffic information so that anyone near you may pass on any pertinent information regarding their whereabouts.
Keeping a good scan going obviously shows good airmanship but you are perhaps giving yourself too much stress over it. The chances of a midair collision even in the heaviest of populated skies are rather slim, especially if you're making use of all those ATC options available such as flight information and radar information.
Chill out a little but keep that scan going and remember that no relative velocity equates to possible danger.
VFE.
Seriously now, you can always lighten your stressload by tuning into the relevant ATC frequency regardless of whether the station is open or not. When a station is closed give a position report and request traffic information so that anyone near you may pass on any pertinent information regarding their whereabouts.
Keeping a good scan going obviously shows good airmanship but you are perhaps giving yourself too much stress over it. The chances of a midair collision even in the heaviest of populated skies are rather slim, especially if you're making use of all those ATC options available such as flight information and radar information.
Chill out a little but keep that scan going and remember that no relative velocity equates to possible danger.
VFE.
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I thought this was going to be another Reggie S. Potter thread.
they say that you never see the one that gets you, which is totaly logical, because if you saw him, you'd take avoiding action.
Practicing your aircraft spotting ouch, its that word) skills on the ground helps when you are in the air. If you heard an aircraft, look for it and watch how it looks against cloud or sky. Do the same with soaring birds and you will become more used to focussing into the distance.
Coming back with Mrs K on saturday, she saw at least one aircraft that I couldn't get on to, but rather than waste time looking for it, I told her to keep an eye on it & let me know what it was doing. I've got her trained not to worry about B747s climbing up out of Stansted now.
they say that you never see the one that gets you, which is totaly logical, because if you saw him, you'd take avoiding action.
Practicing your aircraft spotting ouch, its that word) skills on the ground helps when you are in the air. If you heard an aircraft, look for it and watch how it looks against cloud or sky. Do the same with soaring birds and you will become more used to focussing into the distance.
Coming back with Mrs K on saturday, she saw at least one aircraft that I couldn't get on to, but rather than waste time looking for it, I told her to keep an eye on it & let me know what it was doing. I've got her trained not to worry about B747s climbing up out of Stansted now.
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I've been suffering from the same thing recently, but I think I can attribute it to my scan having gone pear-shaped.
Nearest one was looking out to the right, and then back forward, only to see a Piper type banking hard right. Naturally I did the same, but it would have been way too late if the other guy (girl?) hadn't seen me either. Very very scary.
Edited just to say Great photos.
Nearest one was looking out to the right, and then back forward, only to see a Piper type banking hard right. Naturally I did the same, but it would have been way too late if the other guy (girl?) hadn't seen me either. Very very scary.
Edited just to say Great photos.
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Tough one this - I practise my scan as much as I can and try to practise as suggested on the ground. Extra vigilance in the turn/climb/descent etc but you still miss things and can be close enough to really make you sweat at times. I know in some areas this is not available but I do use LARS whenever I can and this has helped on numerous occasions (thanks people). Even so with helpful radar you still cant see something - like say numer 2 to a tommy on final & I don't see it until its down on the runway.
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Hi again JeroenC: I forgot to add in my original reply that I think it is a very good thing that you (we!) are scared of mid-airs... this keeps us alert and is perhaps why they happen less than they otherwise might!
I appreciate that you yearn for a technology solution, but there are many aircraft that don't (for now) carry transponders so you can't rely on TCAS in VMC and just leave your head in the cockpit... gliders for a start often don't have weight / battery power sufficient for transponders (although there are new light weight low power transponders coming on the market for Mode-S). Maybe one day we will have a universal ADS-B environment, but not yet so until then keep your eyes up and looking out!
Andy
I appreciate that you yearn for a technology solution, but there are many aircraft that don't (for now) carry transponders so you can't rely on TCAS in VMC and just leave your head in the cockpit... gliders for a start often don't have weight / battery power sufficient for transponders (although there are new light weight low power transponders coming on the market for Mode-S). Maybe one day we will have a universal ADS-B environment, but not yet so until then keep your eyes up and looking out!
Andy
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 22nd Jun 2004 at 15:19.
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I believe that a lot of mid airs are from glider pilots not sticking to the thermal protocol and it all going pair shaped. very sad but has happened a fair few times over at Lasham.
And yes, it is scary - hence a good look out scan at all times!
And yes, it is scary - hence a good look out scan at all times!
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While a good lookout appears to be required, I don't think a good lookout is anywhere near a solution to the (already generally miniscule) risk of a mid-air.
If an aircraft is on a TRUE collision course then it isn't likely you will spot it. If it is head-on (recip track) then you are very unlikely to ever see it.
So a good lookout will make you see more planes, and will make you take avoiding action more often, but I don't think those planes would have hit you anyway.
Universal use of transponders and proper (currently £15k+ fitted cost) traffic detection systems are the only way to detect traffic that is on a genuine collision course.
If an aircraft is on a TRUE collision course then it isn't likely you will spot it. If it is head-on (recip track) then you are very unlikely to ever see it.
So a good lookout will make you see more planes, and will make you take avoiding action more often, but I don't think those planes would have hit you anyway.
Universal use of transponders and proper (currently £15k+ fitted cost) traffic detection systems are the only way to detect traffic that is on a genuine collision course.