Crosswind landing, what method do you use?
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Joined: May 2004
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From: london
Crosswind landing, what method do you use?
some people swear by a certain method of crosswind landing. i used to have to send students first solo in 20 knots at sumburgh. i tried all 3 methods but found most sucess with the wing down method in a cessna 150.
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: SE England
In the Grob109b i fly a combination of wing down and crab because its got such a small rudder and i find i ofter run out (if its a strong wind). Wing down i use on takeoff becuase its got such large wings.
on the robin i fly i crab it if necessary.
I dont really swear by a method, i do whats suitable at the time!
on the robin i fly i crab it if necessary.
I dont really swear by a method, i do whats suitable at the time!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
acw check out my reply on square circuits.
have you ever tried the 'allsorts method', i just get it down and then admit to the whatever happened as being the method i used.
.
you can of course use what i call the 'training captain method'.
you land with all the drift on!
have you ever tried the 'allsorts method', i just get it down and then admit to the whatever happened as being the method i used.
.
you can of course use what i call the 'training captain method'.
you land with all the drift on!
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Posts: n/a
I crab it, then just before touchdown I kick it straight. Invariably I realise that I righted it too soon as I drift off the centre line, this usually results in a frantic kicking of feet and lowering of wings until a firm landing with a definate !squeak! from the
tyres.
Like what Whatunion says: I couldn't possibly describe the last few moments, it just comes right somehow!
tyres.
Like what Whatunion says: I couldn't possibly describe the last few moments, it just comes right somehow!
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Finding Out on 121.50
Crabs work for me every time
I think it is a personal thing though, no pun intended.
I was taught wing down and it just did not work. One day tried it my way and it worked for me so stuck to it.
Do any of you use one method for high wing and other for low?
I think it is a personal thing though, no pun intended.
I was taught wing down and it just did not work. One day tried it my way and it worked for me so stuck to it.
Do any of you use one method for high wing and other for low?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: UK
I add at least 20 kts to the usual approach speed, with zero flap, and then just slam it on the ground on all three wheels - works every time so far.
For some reason though it's a technique which leaves everyone else speechless.
For some reason though it's a technique which leaves everyone else speechless.
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Brazil
I think the crab method requires more skill from the pilot.
Also, if the action of de-crab just before thouchdown is not perfect, there is a great chance of sliding with the wind, between the de-crab move and the moment when the wheels touch the ground. If there is a frontal gust wind, you may also start to float with the plane de-crabed, wich is even worst.
So, I prefer the wing down method, because it`s easier and safer, in my opinion. With strong winds, a combination of both may be required.
Also, if the action of de-crab just before thouchdown is not perfect, there is a great chance of sliding with the wind, between the de-crab move and the moment when the wheels touch the ground. If there is a frontal gust wind, you may also start to float with the plane de-crabed, wich is even worst.
So, I prefer the wing down method, because it`s easier and safer, in my opinion. With strong winds, a combination of both may be required.
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
In conditions where full control of the a/c is not a worry I prefer to crab on final then about the time I flare to change to wing down. I like the buffer that wing down allows ie I can choose when to touch down & still be aligned.
If the the conditions are extreme then I crab on final & into the flare. As I yaw the a/c just before touchdown I still apply wing down although the wheel(s) usually touch before much wing down can happen. Adding wing down provides a slight buffer in gusty conditions just in case my timing is a bit off. I'll also fly it onto the ground rather than hold off so I can minimise the period of reducing speed (& therefore control) while still airborne. Quite often in Shetland I've needed to use asymmetric power to get an adequate yaw rate in gusty, 45kt x/winds due to the f%^&*ing slow & heavy handling of the Islander.
If the the conditions are extreme then I crab on final & into the flare. As I yaw the a/c just before touchdown I still apply wing down although the wheel(s) usually touch before much wing down can happen. Adding wing down provides a slight buffer in gusty conditions just in case my timing is a bit off. I'll also fly it onto the ground rather than hold off so I can minimise the period of reducing speed (& therefore control) while still airborne. Quite often in Shetland I've needed to use asymmetric power to get an adequate yaw rate in gusty, 45kt x/winds due to the f%^&*ing slow & heavy handling of the Islander.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
It depends very much on aircraft type.
In very light aircraft, anything over a slight breeze from the side will be difficult to handle with the crabbing method. Once you de-crab, the aircraft will begin to drift, and the lighter the aircraft and/or the stronger the crosswind, the quicker this drift will set in. This is more noticeable in a taildragger, because they are far less forgiving of a little drift than a tricycle. Because of that, I generally prefer the wing-low method.
Having said that, there are a small number of aircraft in which the wing-low method is not particularly suitable, because of engines, wing-tips or outriggers which get in the way. (If these happen to be very light taildragger, then being restricted to the crabbed style of landing will seriously restrict their crosswind capabilities, as is the case with the Europa monowheel.)
In addition, if we're talking about student pilots, many will find one method easier than the other. Since just about any basic trainer can be safely landed using either than crabbing method or the wing-low method, I would suggest teaching a student whichever method the instructor prefers. If the student has trouble with this technique, then try the other one, and hope the student finds either one or the other easy.
You talk about three methods. I assume the third is the combination, changing from crab to wing-low at very low level? From the aircraft's point of view, I don't think this is any different to the wing-low approach. But from a student or low-hours pilot point of view, it may be either easier or harder, so it's probably a useful tool for someone who has trouble getting to grips with the other two methods.
Just my personal thoughts on the subject....
FFF
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In very light aircraft, anything over a slight breeze from the side will be difficult to handle with the crabbing method. Once you de-crab, the aircraft will begin to drift, and the lighter the aircraft and/or the stronger the crosswind, the quicker this drift will set in. This is more noticeable in a taildragger, because they are far less forgiving of a little drift than a tricycle. Because of that, I generally prefer the wing-low method.
Having said that, there are a small number of aircraft in which the wing-low method is not particularly suitable, because of engines, wing-tips or outriggers which get in the way. (If these happen to be very light taildragger, then being restricted to the crabbed style of landing will seriously restrict their crosswind capabilities, as is the case with the Europa monowheel.)
In addition, if we're talking about student pilots, many will find one method easier than the other. Since just about any basic trainer can be safely landed using either than crabbing method or the wing-low method, I would suggest teaching a student whichever method the instructor prefers. If the student has trouble with this technique, then try the other one, and hope the student finds either one or the other easy.
You talk about three methods. I assume the third is the combination, changing from crab to wing-low at very low level? From the aircraft's point of view, I don't think this is any different to the wing-low approach. But from a student or low-hours pilot point of view, it may be either easier or harder, so it's probably a useful tool for someone who has trouble getting to grips with the other two methods.
Just my personal thoughts on the subject....
FFF
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From: UK
Thank you FFF, for a note of common sense. But, if I may add to that - read the manual - aircraft operators manuals recommend specific techniques, and they are there for a particular reason.
For example, I'd never use a wing-down method in a G109b - it has too much lateral stability, a large wingspan and low wing - the only thing that will work is a crabbed approach. Doesn't work all that well with a PA28 either.
Alternatively, a CFM shadow, or a Lockeed L1011 with lowish directional stability, and a shortish high wing, are both ideally suited to a wing-down approach - so that's what you use.
The "third option" works for aircraft with high lateral stability, but high directional stability as well. So, a crabbed approach is much more comfortable, but when you kick off drift late, the into-wind wing inevitably drops forcing the last bit to be flown wing-down.
There is a fourth option, which is to land crabbed. This is used usually either by aircraft where the roll and yaw control aren't independent (such as a flying-flea derivative, or a flexwing) or some big jets where the designer decided that it was easier to design maingear that could handle it, that to build in sufficient rudder power. It feels totally wrong when you do it, but if anybody knows another way to land a flying flea in a crosswind, I'd be fascinated.
So, whilst there are a few types (C152 for example) which don't really mind what method you use and this has perhaps led to some loose-talk in flying schools, I'd be very cautious of any argument that one is better than the other (either in general, or for a particular pilot) - it doesn't hold water, and worse can be downright dangerous. Since in this country we don't have a type-rating system for light aircraft and most club trainers can at-least demonstrate both methods, I'd argue that instructors should make sure that students can handle both, then know to fly the recommended method for that type.
G
For example, I'd never use a wing-down method in a G109b - it has too much lateral stability, a large wingspan and low wing - the only thing that will work is a crabbed approach. Doesn't work all that well with a PA28 either.
Alternatively, a CFM shadow, or a Lockeed L1011 with lowish directional stability, and a shortish high wing, are both ideally suited to a wing-down approach - so that's what you use.
The "third option" works for aircraft with high lateral stability, but high directional stability as well. So, a crabbed approach is much more comfortable, but when you kick off drift late, the into-wind wing inevitably drops forcing the last bit to be flown wing-down.
There is a fourth option, which is to land crabbed. This is used usually either by aircraft where the roll and yaw control aren't independent (such as a flying-flea derivative, or a flexwing) or some big jets where the designer decided that it was easier to design maingear that could handle it, that to build in sufficient rudder power. It feels totally wrong when you do it, but if anybody knows another way to land a flying flea in a crosswind, I'd be fascinated.
So, whilst there are a few types (C152 for example) which don't really mind what method you use and this has perhaps led to some loose-talk in flying schools, I'd be very cautious of any argument that one is better than the other (either in general, or for a particular pilot) - it doesn't hold water, and worse can be downright dangerous. Since in this country we don't have a type-rating system for light aircraft and most club trainers can at-least demonstrate both methods, I'd argue that instructors should make sure that students can handle both, then know to fly the recommended method for that type.
G
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Cloud Nine
We fitted big castors to our PA28 and crabbing now works ... every time.
Only thing is .... she now assumes the intelligence of a super market trolley on landing, so if rudder authority is lacking we send most intelligent pax quickly onto starboard wing to kick out and get said PA28 around the corners .....
I\'m now in the twilight zone regards landings. Having used the crab method since day 1 ........ I found myself abroad ...... and she (with instructor hat on) said that I should try wing down. So, I did a couple of real greasers (much to my surprise) and came home all determined to give it a bash.
Now admittedly I\'ve only done a couple of landings since my return (blame £15 a shot per landing
) but it\'s all gone to pot !!
I now start wing down, creep back to crabbing, correct it, and carry on all the way down to the flare which has become a floaty, porpoisy not-quite-sure which point of the runway I\'m touching down on
So ..... I\'m booking an instructor ..... do I go back to my old ways ? Or do I stick with trying the new tool for my toolbox ?
I like short fields, and have probably used crabbing in the past for fear of striking a wing tip, which really would need to be pretty dramatic wing-down in a PA28 .....
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Only thing is .... she now assumes the intelligence of a super market trolley on landing, so if rudder authority is lacking we send most intelligent pax quickly onto starboard wing to kick out and get said PA28 around the corners .....
I\'m now in the twilight zone regards landings. Having used the crab method since day 1 ........ I found myself abroad ...... and she (with instructor hat on) said that I should try wing down. So, I did a couple of real greasers (much to my surprise) and came home all determined to give it a bash.
Now admittedly I\'ve only done a couple of landings since my return (blame £15 a shot per landing
) but it\'s all gone to pot !!I now start wing down, creep back to crabbing, correct it, and carry on all the way down to the flare which has become a floaty, porpoisy not-quite-sure which point of the runway I\'m touching down on
So ..... I\'m booking an instructor ..... do I go back to my old ways ? Or do I stick with trying the new tool for my toolbox ?
I like short fields, and have probably used crabbing in the past for fear of striking a wing tip, which really would need to be pretty dramatic wing-down in a PA28 .....
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Daventry UK
If you are planning to get checked out in the US, you will probably need to know the wing down method. I've actually had an instructor jump on the rudder pedals during my preferred crab approach! Funny afterwards, but a bit tense at the time. He'd never seen a crab approach.
