220m strip - which aircraft?
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220m strip - which aircraft?
I have a field that is unobstructed at one end with some electricity wires and poles at the other. In all it is only 220m long. Having always wished to have a fun aeroplane parked on my doorstep, can any of you offer any experience of operating particular aircraft out of such a short field?
My initial thoughts were toward a Rans Coyote or Aviat Husky or similar STOL aircraft. Maybe even a three axis microlight. It is the sort of thing I would only fly on a summer evening anyway so outright speed is not an issue.
Or am I plain mad?!
My initial thoughts were toward a Rans Coyote or Aviat Husky or similar STOL aircraft. Maybe even a three axis microlight. It is the sort of thing I would only fly on a summer evening anyway so outright speed is not an issue.
Or am I plain mad?!
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Bell Jetranger??
Seriously though, however STOL an a/c is, I cannot believe that consistently "safe" operation can be achieved from 220 metres.
The distance does not allow ANY scope for error whatsoever. We can all land our short field a/c in that kind of distance and get up again too but it is generally from a strip that is 400m+.
Just my opinion anyway.
A flexwing micro would be as near as I would get to that length and one with a really meaty engine.
Seriously though, however STOL an a/c is, I cannot believe that consistently "safe" operation can be achieved from 220 metres.
The distance does not allow ANY scope for error whatsoever. We can all land our short field a/c in that kind of distance and get up again too but it is generally from a strip that is 400m+.
Just my opinion anyway.
A flexwing micro would be as near as I would get to that length and one with a really meaty engine.
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I agree with Monocock................a helicopter (and even they don't mix well with wires and poles).
BEagle's Harrier idea is good, but it will burn big patches in the grass.
Are you winding us up?
BEagle's Harrier idea is good, but it will burn big patches in the grass.
Are you winding us up?
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There are a few microlights that might do the job.
- Mainair Blade 912 (flexwing) has 140m TODR, 160m LDR
- Savannah (all metal 3-axis) has 198m TODR, 140m LDR.
Both of those are in still air. Overall, I agree with Monocock, and think that a 912 engined flexwing, or (check your bank balance) a helicopter, or (check your life insurance) a gyroplane is the way ahead. I don't know the Husky, but would be very surprised if the Coyote has good-enough short field performance.
BUT, you can help yourself by persuading the PTB to shift the poles and cables, which I'd have thought would cost a fraction of the aircraft cost.
P
- Mainair Blade 912 (flexwing) has 140m TODR, 160m LDR
- Savannah (all metal 3-axis) has 198m TODR, 140m LDR.
Both of those are in still air. Overall, I agree with Monocock, and think that a 912 engined flexwing, or (check your bank balance) a helicopter, or (check your life insurance) a gyroplane is the way ahead. I don't know the Husky, but would be very surprised if the Coyote has good-enough short field performance.
BUT, you can help yourself by persuading the PTB to shift the poles and cables, which I'd have thought would cost a fraction of the aircraft cost.
P
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I have flown into some very short places in the Rallye and I dont require 220M to land or take off in but I really dont think anything much less than 350M is safe. ( I have 340 M)
I did fly the Savannah and it would do, as would the CH701 which the Savannah was copied from.
A husky, on paper will do it and I hope soon to test that out.
A gyroplane will only work STOL if you have lots of wind.
As has been stated you need to have margins that will allow you to operate safely in most weather conditions.
All STOL aircrraft require STOL pilots also.
Tony
I did fly the Savannah and it would do, as would the CH701 which the Savannah was copied from.
A husky, on paper will do it and I hope soon to test that out.
A gyroplane will only work STOL if you have lots of wind.
As has been stated you need to have margins that will allow you to operate safely in most weather conditions.
All STOL aircrraft require STOL pilots also.
Tony
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Not impossible at all!
I operate an Evans VP2 from 250m (well I did until it went in the workshop for minor work 18 months ago
) But I'd not recommend that particular aeroplane as it's very marginal esp as I have wires one end and a high hedge the other. However, a friend has his Zenair CH701 STOL here and he could very safely operate from about 200m. It fair leaps off the ground!!! ... the Savannah is just a clone so would be fine too. Most microlights could be operated from your strip as could quite a few PFA single seaters.
SS
I operate an Evans VP2 from 250m (well I did until it went in the workshop for minor work 18 months ago
) But I'd not recommend that particular aeroplane as it's very marginal esp as I have wires one end and a high hedge the other. However, a friend has his Zenair CH701 STOL here and he could very safely operate from about 200m. It fair leaps off the ground!!! ... the Savannah is just a clone so would be fine too. Most microlights could be operated from your strip as could quite a few PFA single seaters.SS
On which subject, how about a Minimax? Cheap, incredibly short field, happy on grass, and needs about 70m to 50ft.
Only one seat, but that reduces the temptation to press your luck with other people on board.
John Hamer, Secretary of the Minimax club would be the man to talk to, he'll know the beast's capabilities and can probably tell you if any good ones are for sale around the bazaars. He's in the usual PFA and BMAA phone books.
G
Only one seat, but that reduces the temptation to press your luck with other people on board.
John Hamer, Secretary of the Minimax club would be the man to talk to, he'll know the beast's capabilities and can probably tell you if any good ones are for sale around the bazaars. He's in the usual PFA and BMAA phone books.
G
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Pilotage - good point. I will maybe price what the job would cost to bury the wires, then I could extend in to the adjoining paddock and grab another 50m or so.
Monocock- you mention you operate STOL machines - which in particular do you use at the moment? The Zenith CH701 quotes a ground roll of 42m. The new 4 seat CH801 (if and when certified) 88m. The Husky 76m. So to convert ground run to TODR I would guess add another 100m at worst to clear 50'(which is not really an issue), and the maths do seem to work. I take your point about margin for error though.
And yes, you are right about STOL pilot currency, I have around 1000hrs of light GA time and every summer use a 400m strip with a light Cherokee, and fly for a living, so would be fairly confident to try it out (so long as the sums work!!!)
Genghis - yes I know of of an elderly gentleman who operates a Minimax out of 250m where he had previously used a Goldwing microlight canard.
Shortstripper - Thanks for the VP info., and your encouragement.
All good feedback! Keep it coming!
Monocock- you mention you operate STOL machines - which in particular do you use at the moment? The Zenith CH701 quotes a ground roll of 42m. The new 4 seat CH801 (if and when certified) 88m. The Husky 76m. So to convert ground run to TODR I would guess add another 100m at worst to clear 50'(which is not really an issue), and the maths do seem to work. I take your point about margin for error though.
And yes, you are right about STOL pilot currency, I have around 1000hrs of light GA time and every summer use a 400m strip with a light Cherokee, and fly for a living, so would be fairly confident to try it out (so long as the sums work!!!)
Genghis - yes I know of of an elderly gentleman who operates a Minimax out of 250m where he had previously used a Goldwing microlight canard.
Shortstripper - Thanks for the VP info., and your encouragement.
All good feedback! Keep it coming!
Having owned a Goldwing at one point, anybody who is comfortable flying one out of 250m (or more to the point, landing one in 250m) on a regular basis, I may assure you, has somewhat above average flying ability.
G
G
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We recently acquired a Maule M5 235 and that works well out of a 400m strip. The book says that the ground roll is only 600ft at MAUW, I personally would not try anything shorter than 400m at the moment.
I saw the Bob at Sherlowe do a demo in the Husky and that was very impressive, I could have one of those any day and the quoted groundroll is a fact.
Beyond that I think you are looking at the microlights.
FD
I saw the Bob at Sherlowe do a demo in the Husky and that was very impressive, I could have one of those any day and the quoted groundroll is a fact.
Beyond that I think you are looking at the microlights.
FD
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I would check out gyroplanes. I'm not an expert, but I've done a couple of hours in them, and I think you'll find most would cope with 200m even without a wind...with wind they take-off and land in much less. And they are great fun. They do seem to have had a bad press and a lot of accidents recently...maybe check as to why.
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Would a gyroplane actually reach the end of a 220m strip without having some form of accident? They have a pretty poor accident record
My moneys on an Aviat Husky...220m is no problem, even in still air conditions.
My moneys on an Aviat Husky...220m is no problem, even in still air conditions.
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Think of it this way.
STOL aircraft, landing at 50 mph = 80 kph = 22 M per second, if you are a bit high, say from 30 ft over your fence your decent at 300fpm will take 6 seconds or 132 M, say you float for another 2 seconds = 44 M + 132 M = 176 M into your strip
If it takes 70 M ground roll to stop you need 176 + 70 =246 M
And thats if you get the speed right in the first place.
It's what keeps a lot of engineers in work, Fixing bent aircraft.
I am sure my sums will be corrected shortly by others.
Tony
STOL aircraft, landing at 50 mph = 80 kph = 22 M per second, if you are a bit high, say from 30 ft over your fence your decent at 300fpm will take 6 seconds or 132 M, say you float for another 2 seconds = 44 M + 132 M = 176 M into your strip
If it takes 70 M ground roll to stop you need 176 + 70 =246 M
And thats if you get the speed right in the first place.
It's what keeps a lot of engineers in work, Fixing bent aircraft.
I am sure my sums will be corrected shortly by others.
Tony
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Ah yes, but if you are regularly operating into a short strip, your piloting technique needs to be spot-on. Floating into the strip is not an option; planting the aircraft exactly where you want it is the trick, and coming in with power rather than a glide approach is the preferred way. I regularly flew a J3 Cub into a 247m grass strip back in the 80s. Twas never a problem apart from when I had a lardy passenger!
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220 m aircraft
There is a strip at Terrington sounds just like yours, cables at one end. A flexwing a Shadow and a Rans S6 all used to operate out of it. I flew in and out in my Shadow days but as has been suggested it is less than ideal.
The thing that would swing it, and you're right to contemplate it, is the flying off the doorstep. No pratting about in the car, no hassle just wander out of the back door look left and right to check the weather and then tell the wife you'll be back in a litttle while..............priceless (as the saying goes).
A little practice and any average pilot can take any number of aircraft in and out of 220 metres. Not heavy Stol but ultralights.
I spoke with the Rans (2 seater nose wheelless) pilot, who still flies out of it, some years back and he taught himself using cones to mark out the distance on a regular grass strip.
When he got to the stage that he could land and take off in half the distance he then went over to the strip and has been there ever since.
The thing that would swing it, and you're right to contemplate it, is the flying off the doorstep. No pratting about in the car, no hassle just wander out of the back door look left and right to check the weather and then tell the wife you'll be back in a litttle while..............priceless (as the saying goes).
A little practice and any average pilot can take any number of aircraft in and out of 220 metres. Not heavy Stol but ultralights.
I spoke with the Rans (2 seater nose wheelless) pilot, who still flies out of it, some years back and he taught himself using cones to mark out the distance on a regular grass strip.
When he got to the stage that he could land and take off in half the distance he then went over to the strip and has been there ever since.
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I fly the Rallye club from home 3-4 days a week, but when its gusty accross the strip it can become more risk that I care to take so I go somewhere else or take the car.
I also see various STOL aircraft comming in here, some drivers just dont get it right and use up a lot of grass before landing.
I have large motorway traffic cones set 20 m into the strip on each side, if I am not rolling past them on the ground I go around and do it again, (not very often but I have had to a few times)
I M O P, 220 M is too short, but we all have the right to do whatever we want.
Tony
I also see various STOL aircraft comming in here, some drivers just dont get it right and use up a lot of grass before landing.
I have large motorway traffic cones set 20 m into the strip on each side, if I am not rolling past them on the ground I go around and do it again, (not very often but I have had to a few times)
I M O P, 220 M is too short, but we all have the right to do whatever we want.
Tony
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As I see it, it isn't the short length that is the problem, it is the poles and wires that reduce the option of a late go-around. It doesn't matter how current you are, there are always things that can change your touchdown point such as gusts or even small thermals as you cross the thresholds. You can get some clues from movement of crops / long grass / dust / and even windsocks, but you will always be surprised sometime.
I used to know a chap who made a strip behind his house and I believe the electricity company came and put the wires underground for him without charge. Certainly he told me he didn't pay for it to be done, and the wires are underground across the end of the strip now.
Without removing the wires, it sounds like a one-way strip, and you will always be cursing the wind. Even if you pay to have the wires moved, its got to be much cheaper than hangarage at an airfield.
Go for it.
I used to know a chap who made a strip behind his house and I believe the electricity company came and put the wires underground for him without charge. Certainly he told me he didn't pay for it to be done, and the wires are underground across the end of the strip now.
Without removing the wires, it sounds like a one-way strip, and you will always be cursing the wind. Even if you pay to have the wires moved, its got to be much cheaper than hangarage at an airfield.
Go for it.
The Original Whirly
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One thing's for certain, a helicopter could get in there easily. Why not get yourself a PPL(H) and a second hand R22 and you'll have no problems...and lots more fun. 