220m strip - which aircraft?
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Come on Tony,
If you fly a STOL machine in 200m you will not be a bit high and float it in!
If you can't nail the height and speed there is no place for you at the inn!
FD
PS Whirly follow the PPL(H) bit but if you wanted to propose a better option why mention the R22?
Nice to see you about on here a bit more frequent again!
If you fly a STOL machine in 200m you will not be a bit high and float it in!
If you can't nail the height and speed there is no place for you at the inn!
FD
PS Whirly follow the PPL(H) bit but if you wanted to propose a better option why mention the R22?
Nice to see you about on here a bit more frequent again!
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FD,
As I said, I land in the first 20 M, at the correct speed, 99/100.
But I see a lot of experienced pilots who continue the landing long after they should have gone around. I have said before on another thread, I am not big on depending on brakes.
Take the Maule 180 (tailwheel of course), It will both land and take off, in less than 100 M with 2 up and 1/2 fuel, but I have seen pilots using 2-300 M, just by being a tad fast.
Many STOL aircraft (especially tailwheel) will not land unless they are at a speed when they don't want to fly again, this means approaching every time at the correct speed, something which is difficult in gusty conditions.
The usability of 220 M will frustrate the hell out of the owner no matter what aircraft he has.
Tony
As I said, I land in the first 20 M, at the correct speed, 99/100.
But I see a lot of experienced pilots who continue the landing long after they should have gone around. I have said before on another thread, I am not big on depending on brakes.
Take the Maule 180 (tailwheel of course), It will both land and take off, in less than 100 M with 2 up and 1/2 fuel, but I have seen pilots using 2-300 M, just by being a tad fast.
Many STOL aircraft (especially tailwheel) will not land unless they are at a speed when they don't want to fly again, this means approaching every time at the correct speed, something which is difficult in gusty conditions.
The usability of 220 M will frustrate the hell out of the owner no matter what aircraft he has.
Tony
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shortstripper,
Ok I give in, yes it is possible to operate out of 730 feet (sounds better than 220 M), but I would get rid of the wires.
I'd have to agree that the CH701 or the Savannagh (I have flown both) are the only a/c I can think off than will have the X wind ability combined with exceptional STOL performance to make the strip usable most days. The downside is the low cruise speed of 75-85 mph.
John Anderson, a friend from the US who visits us on this forum from time to time (FAA Old Timer), has operated his Cub for over 40 years from a 900 ft (270M) strip with a 6 ft fence at each end, He is not a small man and flies 2 up most flights without ever having any incident. ( he has set a limit of 15 knots accross).
I know from my own strip, if it is short it should be wide this can help in X wind situations both for take off and landing.
I had a dream of having a strip at the house and it took over 20 years to become a reality. Anyway the sun is out and the wind is down the strip, so I'm out the back door and off for a flight.
Stay safe,
Tony
Ok I give in, yes it is possible to operate out of 730 feet (sounds better than 220 M), but I would get rid of the wires.
I'd have to agree that the CH701 or the Savannagh (I have flown both) are the only a/c I can think off than will have the X wind ability combined with exceptional STOL performance to make the strip usable most days. The downside is the low cruise speed of 75-85 mph.
John Anderson, a friend from the US who visits us on this forum from time to time (FAA Old Timer), has operated his Cub for over 40 years from a 900 ft (270M) strip with a 6 ft fence at each end, He is not a small man and flies 2 up most flights without ever having any incident. ( he has set a limit of 15 knots accross).
I know from my own strip, if it is short it should be wide this can help in X wind situations both for take off and landing.
I had a dream of having a strip at the house and it took over 20 years to become a reality. Anyway the sun is out and the wind is down the strip, so I'm out the back door and off for a flight.
Stay safe,
Tony
The Original Whirly
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Flyin'Dutch,
It's OK; I'm quite used to digs at the R22. But quite seriously, I mentioned it because I think it compares quite favourably in price to some of the aircraft being mentioned. And quite honestly, if you can afford it, and don't have that much space, a helicopter is the answer. 200m is oodles of space for a helicopter, not even challenging. So if what you want is a home-based flying machine, it seems to me the most sensible suggestion.
However, don't let me spoil the fun. Feel free to use pages and pages discussing whether you can get over your wires and home safely, on a nil wind day in marginal vis on wet grass after a tiring long flight. I'll even join in if I feel like it.
It's OK; I'm quite used to digs at the R22.
But quite seriously, I mentioned it because I think it compares quite favourably in price to some of the aircraft being mentioned. And quite honestly, if you can afford it, and don't have that much space, a helicopter is the answer. 200m is oodles of space for a helicopter, not even challenging. So if what you want is a home-based flying machine, it seems to me the most sensible suggestion.However, don't let me spoil the fun. Feel free to use pages and pages discussing whether you can get over your wires and home safely, on a nil wind day in marginal vis on wet grass after a tiring long flight. I'll even join in if I feel like it.
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Whirlybird ...
Trouble is the horrendous cost of getting a PPL(H) in the first place
I had a go in a Westland Wasp a couple of weeks ago and I reckon I'd take ages to get the hang of it. Bl
Y impressive though!
SS
Edited to include Zenair take off and fly-by video. It's a 12mb mpg file so unless you have broadband it will take a fair while to download.
www.ivannn.flyer.co.uk/zenn.mpg
The strip is exactly 250m hedge to hedge. At one end there is a 5-10' hedge and the other has 30' telephone wires about 50m further on from the 6' fence.
Trouble is the horrendous cost of getting a PPL(H) in the first place
I had a go in a Westland Wasp a couple of weeks ago and I reckon I'd take ages to get the hang of it. Bl
Y impressive though!SS
Edited to include Zenair take off and fly-by video. It's a 12mb mpg file so unless you have broadband it will take a fair while to download.
www.ivannn.flyer.co.uk/zenn.mpg
The strip is exactly 250m hedge to hedge. At one end there is a 5-10' hedge and the other has 30' telephone wires about 50m further on from the 6' fence.
Last edited by shortstripper; 20th Jun 2004 at 09:29.
Thread Starter
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Whirlybird. Got a PPL (H) some years ago but just keep it current and no more. Decent R22 (though I'd prefer an Enstrom or a Hughes 269) at £70k, and I would guess £20k+ a year to run. Small aircraft such as a Rans half the price and surely only less than half that to run.
The one that seems most appealing is the Zenair CH801 4 seater kit plane 180hp but it has yet to be PFA/CAA certified in this country.
Husky again good choice but lucky to see one used in this country, and new £100k plus.
Surprised the electricity board buried the wires for no cost. A flying farmer I know said they wanted £7k many years ago to bury 70m of cable.
The one that seems most appealing is the Zenair CH801 4 seater kit plane 180hp but it has yet to be PFA/CAA certified in this country.
Husky again good choice but lucky to see one used in this country, and new £100k plus.
Surprised the electricity board buried the wires for no cost. A flying farmer I know said they wanted £7k many years ago to bury 70m of cable.
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I regularly fly into a little paddock roughly 150m long in the L4, it is on a steep hill though but this means there is no go around lower than about 50ft. I would not hesitate in taking her into a 220m flat strip if light but two up I like at least 250m.
Something like a Kitfox would be a good choice.. They will get off the ground in less than 100m under most circumstances, But if you want a 'real' aeroplane how about a L4/J3 with a C85 conversion...?
Another small point, whenever I buy an aircraft I always have to junk the over-coarse cruise prop most seem to have fitted and replace it with a modern climb replacement - always works wonders and truly transformed the performance of my Cub....
My point is - many 'stol' aircraft are never 'stol-ed' and as such are often fitted with inappropriate props... something to watch out for!
Kingy
Something like a Kitfox would be a good choice.. They will get off the ground in less than 100m under most circumstances, But if you want a 'real' aeroplane how about a L4/J3 with a C85 conversion...?
Another small point, whenever I buy an aircraft I always have to junk the over-coarse cruise prop most seem to have fitted and replace it with a modern climb replacement - always works wonders and truly transformed the performance of my Cub....
My point is - many 'stol' aircraft are never 'stol-ed' and as such are often fitted with inappropriate props... something to watch out for!
Kingy
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I'd be very surprised if EDF were to bury wires at no cost. What wires are they? 3 wires on wooden posts?
I'd expect to not see much change out of £15k for getting wires buried especially if they are not just local supply cables.
Doing a lot of the work yourself (such as trenching and ducting with a draw string) would save you thousands over the EDF cost (cost+overhead+Morrisons cost + overhead). Then just get them to come out and reroute. Check the specifications for the ducting with EDF before you start.
DeepC
I'd expect to not see much change out of £15k for getting wires buried especially if they are not just local supply cables.
Doing a lot of the work yourself (such as trenching and ducting with a draw string) would save you thousands over the EDF cost (cost+overhead+Morrisons cost + overhead). Then just get them to come out and reroute. Check the specifications for the ducting with EDF before you start.
DeepC
Incidentally, so far as I know, the CH801 isn't currently going through approval in the UK. I've also heard some less than favourable things about it's handling qualities, in particular pitch stability, from a British Test Pilot who did an assessment on one in Canada. (Mind you, that's not all that unusual for North American homebuilts, and Chris Heinz in particular always seems to have regarded pitch stability as a "nice to have" rather than the "essential" we tend to regard it as over here).
I have flown both the Savannah and the CH701 and would be very happy flying both out of short strips. Given a choice I'd probably go for the Savannah, not because it's a better aeroplane (to be honest, they're much the same) but because it's about 10kg and £10,000 lighter.
Re: Kingy's point on coarse .v. fine props. I agree, many STOL aeroplanes have a coarser pitch that degrades STOL performance. However, this is usually because if you pitch for best take-off and climb, you degrade the cruise. Most pilots would probably be happy with a 200 (instead of 150) metre take-off, in exchange for a 75 (instead of 65) knot cruise.
G
I have flown both the Savannah and the CH701 and would be very happy flying both out of short strips. Given a choice I'd probably go for the Savannah, not because it's a better aeroplane (to be honest, they're much the same) but because it's about 10kg and £10,000 lighter.
Re: Kingy's point on coarse .v. fine props. I agree, many STOL aeroplanes have a coarser pitch that degrades STOL performance. However, this is usually because if you pitch for best take-off and climb, you degrade the cruise. Most pilots would probably be happy with a 200 (instead of 150) metre take-off, in exchange for a 75 (instead of 65) knot cruise.
G
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G,
In my experience it's not as clear cut as that. Take my Sky Scooter for example, Having broke the old Lodge prop (long story... walked into it..!) I replace it with a modern GT of roughly 2" finer pitch. The difference was amazing - ground roll works out to be around 2/3 and the time to climb 1000ft has dropped from 245s to 110s, all for a penalty of perhaps 3-4 mph in the cruise at the same RPM.
I have noted the same startling differences in the Cub too, except it actually cruises faster now...
I'm saying that often the cruise is impacted only slightly if at all, and the benefits in take off performance and climb can be huge.
Best
Kingy (always trying to clear that hedge)
In my experience it's not as clear cut as that. Take my Sky Scooter for example, Having broke the old Lodge prop (long story... walked into it..!) I replace it with a modern GT of roughly 2" finer pitch. The difference was amazing - ground roll works out to be around 2/3 and the time to climb 1000ft has dropped from 245s to 110s, all for a penalty of perhaps 3-4 mph in the cruise at the same RPM.
I have noted the same startling differences in the Cub too, except it actually cruises faster now...
I'm saying that often the cruise is impacted only slightly if at all, and the benefits in take off performance and climb can be huge.
Best
Kingy (always trying to clear that hedge)
Red On, Green On
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I paid Southern Electricity £3,400 to erect a new pole, remove one pole, and bury about 75 m of three phase cable. The overhead cable was in the way of buildings we have since erected. We dug and back-filled the trench, about 1m deep as I recall.
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Christain Husky would do the job nicely ... at a price ! .. but whatever you choose, a bit of advice from a QFI.
Go somewhere with lots of runway, a good instructor, and practise practise practise, when and only when you really have STOL operations taped, head for your strip .. with your instructor to make up the weight .. and practise.
Do not become a statistic.
Go somewhere with lots of runway, a good instructor, and practise practise practise, when and only when you really have STOL operations taped, head for your strip .. with your instructor to make up the weight .. and practise.
Do not become a statistic.
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Has any body mentioned a Storch, obviously not the original but the kit version from the land of OZ.
Good for a 30ft take off roll in a 15knot headwind....apparently
That should do the job
Good for a 30ft take off roll in a 15knot headwind....apparently
That should do the job
