Hidden costs
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Hidden costs
Why does aviation seem to totally rely on hiding costs as a method of selling.
Getting away from the usual run of schools telling little lies like "get your PPL in just 45 hours" and "our students normally solo in 3 hours" my next run of little lies runs deeper.
Time to try some new aircraft I decided. So am looking around at different schemes from share purchase to outright hire and to date not one has been open about the costs involved.
Now, before you run out the arguement..must be a stingy bastard. I will admit there is no Rolls parked in my drive, so I am interested in costs and want to know them before I commit myself to anything.
Two places I have visited about a aircraft share have been amazingly cagey about the share cost. Very open about the costs per hour but one almost would not tell me how much the bloody aircraft share cost...kept telling me "just come and try it". It took a full ten minutes to get the information out of him as to the actual share cost.
The next pay per hour mob has ranged from trying hard to not let me discover things like monthly costs or one recently changed the "understood" check out cost to an amazing 155 pounds. In both cases the emphasis is on how cheap the thing is to hire per hour but getting the rest of the costs involved has been as difficult as discussing your sex life with nuns!
Web sites of the hirers do not always tell the full story, or it requires pressing browser buttons that are the size of a gnats dick.
I accept that there are costs here. I know it is not a cheap hobby. However hiding the costs from pilots will either end in arguments or (as I am getting) super sceptism. Just tell me the whole cost and let me make up my mind!!
Are the rest of you having this problem or am I just "different?"
Getting away from the usual run of schools telling little lies like "get your PPL in just 45 hours" and "our students normally solo in 3 hours" my next run of little lies runs deeper.
Time to try some new aircraft I decided. So am looking around at different schemes from share purchase to outright hire and to date not one has been open about the costs involved.
Now, before you run out the arguement..must be a stingy bastard. I will admit there is no Rolls parked in my drive, so I am interested in costs and want to know them before I commit myself to anything.
Two places I have visited about a aircraft share have been amazingly cagey about the share cost. Very open about the costs per hour but one almost would not tell me how much the bloody aircraft share cost...kept telling me "just come and try it". It took a full ten minutes to get the information out of him as to the actual share cost.
The next pay per hour mob has ranged from trying hard to not let me discover things like monthly costs or one recently changed the "understood" check out cost to an amazing 155 pounds. In both cases the emphasis is on how cheap the thing is to hire per hour but getting the rest of the costs involved has been as difficult as discussing your sex life with nuns!
Web sites of the hirers do not always tell the full story, or it requires pressing browser buttons that are the size of a gnats dick.
I accept that there are costs here. I know it is not a cheap hobby. However hiding the costs from pilots will either end in arguments or (as I am getting) super sceptism. Just tell me the whole cost and let me make up my mind!!
Are the rest of you having this problem or am I just "different?"
Join Date: Jul 2002
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No , Kellvin it's not just you. I am having the same problems at the moment.
Looking for a share in a basic 4 seater but getting all sorts of problems finding out the true costs
Just don't ask anyone why they are selling their share cause you will get all sorts of excuses
C-I-M
Looking for a share in a basic 4 seater but getting all sorts of problems finding out the true costs
Just don't ask anyone why they are selling their share cause you will get all sorts of excuses
C-I-M
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I would be very wary about entering into a deal with anybody/syndicate who was not open and up front about these costs and the way the syndicate operates.
What are they trying to prove?
FD
What are they trying to prove?
FD
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QDM
I think most of us know that when we get hooked on this activity that we are going to be terminaly poor but why do some people not tell the facts as they are so that those of us looking to buy into an aircraft can get a reasonable picture and allow us to judge acordingly
C-I-M
I think most of us know that when we get hooked on this activity that we are going to be terminaly poor but why do some people not tell the facts as they are so that those of us looking to buy into an aircraft can get a reasonable picture and allow us to judge acordingly
C-I-M
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most of us are more or less in denial about what flying really costs us
Cirrus? Side sticks, glass cockpit, tricycle undercarriage, gas-guzzling engine, plastic limited life airframe ... it might appeal to some, but it's certainly not my cup of tea (I can't see QDM in one of those things, either)!
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The site gave no costs.
Since you didn't look at the costs, what exactly is your rip-off accusation based on?
Here's a hint - click on the button that says 'Join Us'.
Maybe try clicking here first though.
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Fly Stimulator: That is, indeed, why I posted the link,
Kellvin: I wasn't suggesting that you could afford it. But when you find the prices, you might be surprised. I was. In the words of Mr. Remmington, "I liked it so much, I bought the company." Well, more strictly, I'm about to buy a few shares in the company...
TPK
Kellvin: I wasn't suggesting that you could afford it. But when you find the prices, you might be surprised. I was. In the words of Mr. Remmington, "I liked it so much, I bought the company." Well, more strictly, I'm about to buy a few shares in the company...
TPK
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Caveat emptor, I believe.
I'm our group secretary, and I can assure you everyone knows the rates. A nice Arrow III. 6 members. £100 a month, £65 an hour (£50 for fuel etc, £15 to the engine fund). Cash calls as and when necessary, for example if we have a scary annual or need to upgrade a radio. Some years, no cash call. Worst ever was about £2,000 each when we needed two new pots and a new prop at the C of A. Average probably about £300 a year.
We could avoid the cash calls by having a larger monthly fee, but I thought we'd rather have the money in our individual accounts.
It's all down to how the group is run.
I'm our group secretary, and I can assure you everyone knows the rates. A nice Arrow III. 6 members. £100 a month, £65 an hour (£50 for fuel etc, £15 to the engine fund). Cash calls as and when necessary, for example if we have a scary annual or need to upgrade a radio. Some years, no cash call. Worst ever was about £2,000 each when we needed two new pots and a new prop at the C of A. Average probably about £300 a year.
We could avoid the cash calls by having a larger monthly fee, but I thought we'd rather have the money in our individual accounts.
It's all down to how the group is run.
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Kellvin, if you are convinced that all groups are out to "rip you off" then you are probably best not joining one. Aircraft ownership, whether singly or in shares, is never a fixed-price experience. There is always that unexpected maintanance bill or component failure - which is always, at least, a treble-digit bill (have you heard the one about the Arrow with the £33,000 annual?). In a group you have people to share that pain and expense; which is part of the reason why the total of shares is generally a little more than buying a whole aircraft.
If you are stretching your finances too far to allow for any surprises then you need to look in another direction. Maybe the PFA? At least you won't be "ripped off" by engineers.........
If you are stretching your finances too far to allow for any surprises then you need to look in another direction. Maybe the PFA? At least you won't be "ripped off" by engineers.........
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There is just no way to fly "cheap" but I think the Koliber 160A group system is as good as any. A new aircraft with no hidden costs.
I am sure if you PM "Kolibear" on this forum he will give you the details.
Tony
I am sure if you PM "Kolibear" on this forum he will give you the details.
Tony
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There are two factors that cause the problems mentioned here.
A lot of sharp operators are attracted by the "romantic" and "swashbuckling" aspect of flying. They end up involved in a lot of aviation businesses, not necessarily in the ownership end (because they tend to be skint themselves) but in the operations end.
Today, most people that get into PPL flying can't really afford it. This plays into the hands of those above.
I never bought into a group but looked at a fair number of them before eventually buying my own. It should be obvious to anyone with enough of a brain to pass the PPL exams that the costs will not be predictable and I don't really think anybody has an issue with that.
The issue is that somebody selling their share (which you are buying) is very unlikely to be telling the whole story as to why.
I think the best arrangement would be to get together with a few people one knows and trusts, none of whom are exactly skint, and buy a brand new plane between you.
The next best thing is to buy into an existing group, comprising of people one knows and trusts.
After that, one is into the territory where people sell shares because of e.g. disagreements on maintenance, or there is a huge bill coming up which the engineer has mentioned to somebody informally.
A lot of sharp operators are attracted by the "romantic" and "swashbuckling" aspect of flying. They end up involved in a lot of aviation businesses, not necessarily in the ownership end (because they tend to be skint themselves) but in the operations end.
Today, most people that get into PPL flying can't really afford it. This plays into the hands of those above.
I never bought into a group but looked at a fair number of them before eventually buying my own. It should be obvious to anyone with enough of a brain to pass the PPL exams that the costs will not be predictable and I don't really think anybody has an issue with that.
The issue is that somebody selling their share (which you are buying) is very unlikely to be telling the whole story as to why.
I think the best arrangement would be to get together with a few people one knows and trusts, none of whom are exactly skint, and buy a brand new plane between you.
The next best thing is to buy into an existing group, comprising of people one knows and trusts.
After that, one is into the territory where people sell shares because of e.g. disagreements on maintenance, or there is a huge bill coming up which the engineer has mentioned to somebody informally.
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The trouble with buying aircraft is that you THINK you know what you want until you get it home and then you realise it wasn't at all the right thing.
It happened to me several times and I know it has happened to others.
If people apply the same principle to buying a plane that they do to buying a car (ie 75% of the factor is how it looks) then they will be sorely disappointed.
To finish my point, I know of at least 5 people who have owned more than 5 planes in their lifetime and they all own C150's now and wouldn't sell them for the world!!
Food for thought.....
It happened to me several times and I know it has happened to others.
If people apply the same principle to buying a plane that they do to buying a car (ie 75% of the factor is how it looks) then they will be sorely disappointed.
To finish my point, I know of at least 5 people who have owned more than 5 planes in their lifetime and they all own C150's now and wouldn't sell them for the world!!
Food for thought.....
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Monocock
I think the problem you describe is one not knowing the "mission profile" i.e. not knowing what one wants to do flying-wise.
If one knows what one wants to do, choosing a suitable plane isn't hard.
The trouble is that most new PPLs don't know what they want to do. From what I have seen, the majority do a PPL purely as a personal challenge, some want to be airline pilots, a few want to do aeros, and almost none do it for going places (touring).
Yet it is only the last two groups that can have a good enough idea to pick an aircraft type early.
For someone who does have an idea, getting into a group, or buying a plane, and doing this ASAP after getting their PPL, is probably the best possible thing they can do to advance their flying, not least because the direct hourly cost is far lower than renting and this promotes currency.
I think the problem you describe is one not knowing the "mission profile" i.e. not knowing what one wants to do flying-wise.
If one knows what one wants to do, choosing a suitable plane isn't hard.
The trouble is that most new PPLs don't know what they want to do. From what I have seen, the majority do a PPL purely as a personal challenge, some want to be airline pilots, a few want to do aeros, and almost none do it for going places (touring).
Yet it is only the last two groups that can have a good enough idea to pick an aircraft type early.
For someone who does have an idea, getting into a group, or buying a plane, and doing this ASAP after getting their PPL, is probably the best possible thing they can do to advance their flying, not least because the direct hourly cost is far lower than renting and this promotes currency.
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Kellvin,
Just ask to see the accounts. Not as easy as it sound if like me you don't know what you are looking for! Most groups I know have n Excell spreadsheet of some sort with the income and expediture. Tells the whole story.
Mono wrote:
This is very true. I bought my share immediately after my PPL when I had one set of ideas. Now a year later I have another. Although it is a good a/c and a nice group. My main grumble is lack of FM Immunity. I didn't really understand this and now I find it will be limiting me.
Just ask to see the accounts. Not as easy as it sound if like me you don't know what you are looking for! Most groups I know have n Excell spreadsheet of some sort with the income and expediture. Tells the whole story.
Mono wrote:
The trouble with buying aircraft is that you THINK you know what you want until you get it home and then you realise it wasn't at all the right thing.