We can all learn from that!
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: UK
We can all learn from that!
Sat doing my power checks at my rather challenging local grass airfield on Sunday and witnessed some poor sole attempt to land his 172 /182 (not sure which) and almost come to grief. Bounced twice, wheelbarrowed on the third with the prop impacting the surface, and then a very late go-around with early flap retraction and subsequent sink before just missing the trees and wires.
Lessons to be learnt
1, If you have not been there before and you are not current flying in/out of small grass strips, do not attempt it.
2, In the Go around be careful with the flap retraction especially on Cessna's as it so easy to go from drag flap to no flap in haste.
3, Watch your speeds, if you currently are over the fence at 65 knots it is more likely to be 55 for a small grass field. Have you ever landed at this speed?
Thankfully an expensive but happy ending and there but for the grace of god go I!
Lessons to be learnt
1, If you have not been there before and you are not current flying in/out of small grass strips, do not attempt it.
2, In the Go around be careful with the flap retraction especially on Cessna's as it so easy to go from drag flap to no flap in haste.
3, Watch your speeds, if you currently are over the fence at 65 knots it is more likely to be 55 for a small grass field. Have you ever landed at this speed?
Thankfully an expensive but happy ending and there but for the grace of god go I!
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
d192049d
It is for the very reasons mentioned above that so many private strip operators (including myself) are becoming increasingly nervous of the tarmac brigade venturing out of their natural habitats. Some seem to believe that because their a/c is deemed as a "strip" machine that it will do what it says on the box.
There are some basic skills required to get these things down safely (and up again).
I also wonder how many people are not actually insured when they go into these places.....very few bother actually finding this out.
It is for the very reasons mentioned above that so many private strip operators (including myself) are becoming increasingly nervous of the tarmac brigade venturing out of their natural habitats. Some seem to believe that because their a/c is deemed as a "strip" machine that it will do what it says on the box.
There are some basic skills required to get these things down safely (and up again).
I also wonder how many people are not actually insured when they go into these places.....very few bother actually finding this out.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
d192049d
If his prop actually impacted the surface, that is a bill of around £10,000-£15,000 if done properly (prop repair / new prop blades / whole new prop / shock load inspection). I hope somebody told him that he had a prop strike (he may not have realised) because engine damage can occur without obvious prop damage especially on grass. The next person to fly it might get a suprise. I would also contact the CAA-registered owner because many renters don't report awful landings, so the "suprise" the next renter gets may be a gear collapse.
On a more general point, most PPLs are not taught the full version of working out the aircraft landing/takeoff performance. I never trained in a 172/182 so don't know what documentation they come with, but then I never saw a POH for anything at all during my PPL training. What I now fly (TB20) comes with a very complete graphical diagram where you start with the OAT and airfield elevation, then move along to the weight (this gives you the Vr etc) then move on to the obstacle height etc.... If people were taught this, they wouldn't do what is described as often.
I know I go on about this but PPL training is generally c**p. The whole system hangs together only because nearly all PPLs chuck it in almost right away.
If his prop actually impacted the surface, that is a bill of around £10,000-£15,000 if done properly (prop repair / new prop blades / whole new prop / shock load inspection). I hope somebody told him that he had a prop strike (he may not have realised) because engine damage can occur without obvious prop damage especially on grass. The next person to fly it might get a suprise. I would also contact the CAA-registered owner because many renters don't report awful landings, so the "suprise" the next renter gets may be a gear collapse.
On a more general point, most PPLs are not taught the full version of working out the aircraft landing/takeoff performance. I never trained in a 172/182 so don't know what documentation they come with, but then I never saw a POH for anything at all during my PPL training. What I now fly (TB20) comes with a very complete graphical diagram where you start with the OAT and airfield elevation, then move along to the weight (this gives you the Vr etc) then move on to the obstacle height etc.... If people were taught this, they wouldn't do what is described as often.
I know I go on about this but PPL training is generally c**p. The whole system hangs together only because nearly all PPLs chuck it in almost right away.
Guest
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I was quite interested to read about old aviation practice when it was standard to land light aircraft in a glide. I think the reason was that it was assumed the engine would quit at these critical moments so if you didn't need the engine then don't rely on it. Got me thinking what good practice this would generally be. It must really help in judging distances all types of approaches.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
It is for the very reasons mentioned above that so many private strip operators (including myself) are becoming increasingly nervous of the tarmac brigade venturing out of their natural habitats. Some seem to believe that because their a/c is deemed as a "strip" machine that it will do what it says on the box.
Alas, it was trying to take off! Off the end of the strip, 50 yards through the pre-silage grass, just about into the air, then up the hill in ground effect, NEXT to the big tree. They survived with inches to spare.
I was ready to run, but there would have been nothing to run for. They were nice people and I'm sure if any is reading this, they know who I mean.
Spam cans and strips mix only with the greatest of caution.
QDM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
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From: Europe
IO,
I understand that a shockload is only deemed to have happened if the engine is stopped by the impact. That was what I was told before.
FD
(Quick to point out that I did not ask because I'd had one or think that a machine exposed to the escapades as described should not get a proper inspection, just curious to find out whether that statement was true! Genghis where are you!?!)
I understand that a shockload is only deemed to have happened if the engine is stopped by the impact. That was what I was told before.
FD
(Quick to point out that I did not ask because I'd had one or think that a machine exposed to the escapades as described should not get a proper inspection, just curious to find out whether that statement was true! Genghis where are you!?!)
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
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From: London, UK
I once sat at the hold at a small airfield (old WW2 base, crumbly runways, but not that tricky) watching a guy in a C150 appearing at first to do jolly well with the horrid crosswind, only to bounce, do some PIOs, wheelbarrow, and end up on his nose. Ouch. Going around from the flare (or even later) can still be a good idea, as I reminded myself yesterday whilst leaping and bounding along the runway at Compton Abbas.
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Buckinghamshire
If people were taught this...
I have also found on several occasions when renting from clubs in the US and in Oz that I have been required to take an open-book (POH) test to confirm I know how to do this, especially for hot'n'high scenarios: presumably many people have to do this from time to time for the same reason?
But I think the problem may be, having learned it is forgotten and people get lazy.
Andy
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 143
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From: East Yorkshire
I've never used it since getting my PPL. That's probably a sad reflection on my part for a number of reasons:
1) I've only landed at places that I obviouslly don't need to worry about it
2) I've almost only flown a PA28 with one passenger
3) 95% of my flying has been in and out of the same place
4) I'm now doing Aero's (see point 3) (not in PA28 either
I doubt I'm the only person like this, but it does come into my mind now and again that I should practise such skills.
1) I've only landed at places that I obviouslly don't need to worry about it
2) I've almost only flown a PA28 with one passenger
3) 95% of my flying has been in and out of the same place
4) I'm now doing Aero's (see point 3) (not in PA28 either
I doubt I'm the only person like this, but it does come into my mind now and again that I should practise such skills.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Gloucester
It's all to do with cost as usual.... while I was committed to getting my PPL the money was secondary and I was flying every week. Now I'm lucky if I can afford once a month - and when I do get up there its not to practice all the essential skills. I've already had serious thoughts about stopping altogether as I can't afford to stay as safe as I know I should.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Chichester, UK
I thought everyone was taught this: I was anyway (learned in 2000, JAR syllabus). Pretty amazed to think people are flying around without knowing how to do the performance calcs from the POH: is this really true?
And doesn't the flight performance & planning exam cover it?
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: north of barlu
dewdrop
It is not the average PPL that I was on about it is the standard of training , That depends on the attitude and skill of your instructor (assuming that the student is willing to study).
Ausie Andy was lucky enough to walk into a club that has mostly older instructors that are not clammering to get an airline job and just enjoy instructing , in fact AA's instructor won Flyer magazine instructor of the year award a year or two back.
It is very hard for a pilot to fly well if the instruction he/she receves is "lackluster" because of poor instructor attitude.
Ausie Andy was lucky enough to walk into a club that has mostly older instructors that are not clammering to get an airline job and just enjoy instructing , in fact AA's instructor won Flyer magazine instructor of the year award a year or two back.
It is very hard for a pilot to fly well if the instruction he/she receves is "lackluster" because of poor instructor attitude.
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Buckinghamshire
I think A and C is making a good point: the trouble is I have no experience to compare against what I perceive to have been very professional standards at the British Airways Flying Club at Wycombe (I hasten to add that reports of Wycombe Air Centre at the same airfield are also generally positive as far as I have heard).
I think it's not only about individual instructors. Keith A was great - a very practical and conscientious/serious attitude (in the air at least!) borne of years of practical non-pilot operational RAF experience (although he has since left and is in fact flying with BMI out of East Midlands now), but I have found all the instructors I have flown with at Wycombe to have very high standards. I think there are two reasons: a) the guys / girls themselves are mature high-calibre people; and b) moreover the boss - CFI John Harthill - rules the roost with a notoriously firm hand and ensures no-one (student, PPL qualified club member or instructor!) ever forgets what the standards are! I swear the guy can see what we're doing even when we are 40NM north of the airfield! 
But as I say, I have little experience of training to compare this with (other than the odd check-ride with other clubs in the UK and elsewhere as mentioned). I hear people say that not all training organisations are like this, but then I also hear others speak just as highly of other places.
Andy
I think it's not only about individual instructors. Keith A was great - a very practical and conscientious/serious attitude (in the air at least
!) borne of years of practical non-pilot operational RAF experience (although he has since left and is in fact flying with BMI out of East Midlands now), but I have found all the instructors I have flown with at Wycombe to have very high standards. I think there are two reasons: a) the guys / girls themselves are mature high-calibre people; and b) moreover the boss - CFI John Harthill - rules the roost with a notoriously firm hand and ensures no-one (student, PPL qualified club member or instructor!) ever forgets what the standards are! I swear the guy can see what we're doing even when we are 40NM north of the airfield! But as I say, I have little experience of training to compare this with (other than the odd check-ride with other clubs in the UK and elsewhere as mentioned). I hear people say that not all training organisations are like this, but then I also hear others speak just as highly of other places.
Andy
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
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From: UK
I've done this but rarely, but I do do it and my training was JAR in 2001/2.
Last time I really sweated over it was in France in Arrow with 38 degrees C to contend with and some concern over how much wine and cheese I dared load!
Last time I really sweated over it was in France in Arrow with 38 degrees C to contend with and some concern over how much wine and cheese I dared load!