VRPs versus local knowledge
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
VRPs versus local knowledge
Has anyone flying regularly around Solent zone heard of "North Otford"?
While flying from IoW/Bembridge back to Wycombe yesterday afternoon I took a Flight Information Service from Solent Approach as I was tracking alongside and under their Class D. The nice lady asked me to "report abeam North Otford". I replied that I would look for "North Otford" on my map(!) and although she subsequently told me it was about 11NM NE of the field, it remained a mystery to me as I haven't spotted a VRP by that name.
There was a town called North something-else (Airesford?) so I wondered if she meant that but (Fly Stimulator please take note
) I decided not to take up any more air-time to confirm this.
So I just plodded along until about 12NM NE of them and just clearing the extent of the overlying Class D before calling to say "G-AK 12 miles NE; QSY Farnborough 125.25".
No big deal, but can anyone tell me whether this was a case of:[list=a][*]Andy failing to map read whilst rubbing tummy, patting head, navigating and talking to the kids; or[*]ATC referring to a local landmark instead of an official VRP?[/list=a]If the latter, then I think its poor form as it wastes too many cycles hunting around on the map for something which is not highlighted as a VRP. If the former, then mea culpa!
Hope everyone had a good weekend flying!?
Andy
While flying from IoW/Bembridge back to Wycombe yesterday afternoon I took a Flight Information Service from Solent Approach as I was tracking alongside and under their Class D. The nice lady asked me to "report abeam North Otford". I replied that I would look for "North Otford" on my map(!) and although she subsequently told me it was about 11NM NE of the field, it remained a mystery to me as I haven't spotted a VRP by that name.
There was a town called North something-else (Airesford?) so I wondered if she meant that but (Fly Stimulator please take note
) I decided not to take up any more air-time to confirm this.So I just plodded along until about 12NM NE of them and just clearing the extent of the overlying Class D before calling to say "G-AK 12 miles NE; QSY Farnborough 125.25".
No big deal, but can anyone tell me whether this was a case of:[list=a][*]Andy failing to map read whilst rubbing tummy, patting head, navigating and talking to the kids; or[*]ATC referring to a local landmark instead of an official VRP?[/list=a]If the latter, then I think its poor form as it wastes too many cycles hunting around on the map for something which is not highlighted as a VRP. If the former, then mea culpa!
Hope everyone had a good weekend flying!?
Andy
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From: Chichester, UK
New Alresford (pronounced kind of like "Alsford") is roughly 12nm NE of Southampton, was it that? I guess it's a fairly common landmark, as it marks the NE corner of Solent airspace, but it isn't (AFAIK) an official reporting point. Isn't marked as such on my half-mil
(edited 'cos I wrote reporting point when I meant landmark!)
(edited 'cos I wrote reporting point when I meant landmark!)
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
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From: London
I was wondering about New Alresford too. Perhaps it was simply a translation error, with the controller failing to render New Alresford into Strine.
I'm sure by now that the Farnborough controllers look forward to Aussie Andy's little jaunts through their zone, since it must give them a chance to pop out to the loo, make a cup of tea and have a kip, all while he gets his initial call in.
Personally I think a dedicated frequency is not only richly deserved, but well overdue!
I'm sure by now that the Farnborough controllers look forward to Aussie Andy's little jaunts through their zone, since it must give them a chance to pop out to the loo, make a cup of tea and have a kip, all while he gets his initial call in.
Personally I think a dedicated frequency is not only richly deserved, but well overdue!
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
G'day rustle...
No mention of it - ref. http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/p...es/302HI01.PDF which lists only Bishops Waltham, Calshot, Romsey and Totton along with appropriate NDB/VOR/DME fix details.
Hi Fly Stimulator... a dedicated frequency, yes I would like that
Evo: I guess that must have been it... but having to reverse engineer the pronunciation to the spelling to the map etc., well I could do without it!
Still, not such a big deal and as my Dad used to say "worse things happen at sea"...
Andy
Have a look at the AIP plate for EGHI - all the VRPs that ATC use are shown / listed on there...
Hi Fly Stimulator... a dedicated frequency, yes I would like that
Evo: I guess that must have been it... but having to reverse engineer the pronunciation to the spelling to the map etc., well I could do without it!
Still, not such a big deal and as my Dad used to say "worse things happen at sea"...
Andy
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From: Surrey, UK.
Hm, maybe she actually said
and you misheard completely?
But there's some towns near the north-west corner of the Solent Zone - with a brickworks therein - isn't one of them called Otford or something?
...and be extremely careful if you find yourself going north of Watford...
But there's some towns near the north-west corner of the Solent Zone - with a brickworks therein - isn't one of them called Otford or something?
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From: Chichester, UK
But there's some towns near the north-west corner of the Solent Zone - with a brickworks therein - isn't one of them called Otford or something?
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From: behind the lens
Take a look at Yellow 129 AIC 18/2004 dated 1st April.
However, when you look at the AIP entry for SAM they only list 4 x VRP's;
Bishops Waltham, Calchot, Romsey and Totton.
..........but then the locals make it up as they go
However, when you look at the AIP entry for SAM they only list 4 x VRP's;
Bishops Waltham, Calchot, Romsey and Totton.
..........but then the locals make it up as they go
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From: Surrey, UK ;
Solent Airspace
Doesn't seem too big a deal IMHO. New Alresford is the biggest yellow bit (apart from Winchester) on the half mil in the general direction Andy was going. Assuming he was going to trot over Basingstoke and Reading it seems an obvious place to report and almost coincides with the Solent zone boundary. (they usually like to get rid, as soon as you are off their patch).
I often report to Farnborough "places" like Haslemere or Petersfield and as I am obviously VFR with a map it seems to be the obvious thing to do. (there aren't any VRPs other than Guildford about anyway !!!)
Solent have asked me to report Ryde Pier in sight and Gloucester "The Racecourse", none of which are real VRPs.
I guess this sort of logic is fine with a map, as VRPs are pretty sparse anywhere except around zones and then some VRPs are hard to find and probably placed because they neded a point x miles NW of Y or summat.
(As a Luton trained and bred Cherokee driver, Pirton was always the most devlish place to find - mostly found because I knew how to get there rather than because I could see it.)
This sounds more like a triumph of English over Strine than any real issue about the validity of using a town rather than a VRP as a reporting point.
I often report to Farnborough "places" like Haslemere or Petersfield and as I am obviously VFR with a map it seems to be the obvious thing to do. (there aren't any VRPs other than Guildford about anyway !!!)
Solent have asked me to report Ryde Pier in sight and Gloucester "The Racecourse", none of which are real VRPs.
I guess this sort of logic is fine with a map, as VRPs are pretty sparse anywhere except around zones and then some VRPs are hard to find and probably placed because they neded a point x miles NW of Y or summat.
(As a Luton trained and bred Cherokee driver, Pirton was always the most devlish place to find - mostly found because I knew how to get there rather than because I could see it.)
This sounds more like a triumph of English over Strine than any real issue about the validity of using a town rather than a VRP as a reporting point.
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
Dave Gittins: you're right on several counts... it's not a big deal (just a bit of work-avoidance by PPRuNing really !), and so something to chat about as much as anything!
I think you're also right in that from her point-of-view it's a pragmatic point to choose on the map in that it's a "yellow bit".
The only slight problem for me was (apparently) mis-hearing what the nice lady said (my wife says I do this all the time when women are speaking...
), and wasting my time hunting for a VRP on the map when I should have been looking for for a town.
When flying in Australia I recall being told sometimes to "report at (whatever) township", which gives the clue to look for a twon rather than a VRP on the map. So maybe if she had said "report at <garbled-name> town/village/etc, 11NM NE" I would have understood.
But hey, in the scheme of things, it's a small problem! It's just that it reminded me of a handful of other times when I've been looking for the bl**dy VRP that ATC have told me to report at, with out finding it on my map.
I kind-of like how they do it in France, with their multitudes of "N", "NE", NE-A", "NE-B" etc. style reporting points sometimes found: the names are unambiguous, can be prounounced phonetically thereby accomodating foreigners better(!), and are more easily found on the map by those not familiar with the local area as they are highlighted as VRP's, and there is a clue as to their bearing from the field embedded within the name itself..!
Of course, things like "piers" etc are great and unambiguous (at least for mother-tongue English - or even 'Strine - speakers).
Anyway, I've enjoyed the chat! And if it was a real ATC gripe I'd have posted on the ATC forum
Cheers all!
Andy
!), and so something to chat about as much as anything!I think you're also right in that from her point-of-view it's a pragmatic point to choose on the map in that it's a "yellow bit".
The only slight problem for me was (apparently) mis-hearing what the nice lady said (my wife says I do this all the time when women are speaking...
), and wasting my time hunting for a VRP on the map when I should have been looking for for a town. When flying in Australia I recall being told sometimes to "report at (whatever) township", which gives the clue to look for a twon rather than a VRP on the map. So maybe if she had said "report at <garbled-name> town/village/etc, 11NM NE" I would have understood.
But hey, in the scheme of things, it's a small problem! It's just that it reminded me of a handful of other times when I've been looking for the bl**dy VRP that ATC have told me to report at, with out finding it on my map.
I kind-of like how they do it in France, with their multitudes of "N", "NE", NE-A", "NE-B" etc. style reporting points sometimes found: the names are unambiguous, can be prounounced phonetically thereby accomodating foreigners better(!), and are more easily found on the map by those not familiar with the local area as they are highlighted as VRP's, and there is a clue as to their bearing from the field embedded within the name itself..!
Of course, things like "piers" etc are great and unambiguous (at least for mother-tongue English - or even 'Strine - speakers).
Anyway, I've enjoyed the chat! And if it was a real ATC gripe I'd have posted on the ATC forum
Cheers all!
Andy
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From: EuroGA.org
This is interesting, and I wonder just how much a pilot flying "VFR" is legally supposed to know about VRPs.
I always navigate fully IFR, e.g. EGxx MAY ALKIN LAM BPK BKY EGxx. The route is pre-planned on the ground, as it should be.
If taking to e.g. Thames Radar, if I tell them "next waypoint is BPK" they just say "G-xxxx, roger" and they are happy.
If talking to some lower form of service however, I might be asked to report at Sevenoaks. Now I have to look at the chart, or the GPS map, to see where Sevenoaks actually is.
Moreover, when reading e.g. Pooleys, some big airports give a list of VRPs at which VFR pilots are supposed to report. I don't have it handy but I think Cardiff was one. I phoned them up and asked whether I really need to know all that, why can't I just come straight in and use the ILS; they made it clear that would be perfectly fine.
Is a pilot on a "VFR" flight supposed to know where any feature on the ground is (other than, obviously, restricted areas etc and the destination airfield) or is he entitled to say he is navigating IFR? One way around this is to fly "IFR", I suppose... The other one is to not talk to anyone and just maintain a listening watch - best way if the service in the area cannot actually offer a useful service (e.g. London Info)
I always navigate fully IFR, e.g. EGxx MAY ALKIN LAM BPK BKY EGxx. The route is pre-planned on the ground, as it should be.
If taking to e.g. Thames Radar, if I tell them "next waypoint is BPK" they just say "G-xxxx, roger" and they are happy.
If talking to some lower form of service however, I might be asked to report at Sevenoaks. Now I have to look at the chart, or the GPS map, to see where Sevenoaks actually is.
Moreover, when reading e.g. Pooleys, some big airports give a list of VRPs at which VFR pilots are supposed to report. I don't have it handy but I think Cardiff was one. I phoned them up and asked whether I really need to know all that, why can't I just come straight in and use the ILS; they made it clear that would be perfectly fine.
Is a pilot on a "VFR" flight supposed to know where any feature on the ground is (other than, obviously, restricted areas etc and the destination airfield) or is he entitled to say he is navigating IFR? One way around this is to fly "IFR", I suppose... The other one is to not talk to anyone and just maintain a listening watch - best way if the service in the area cannot actually offer a useful service (e.g. London Info)
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
FlyStimulator:
Do you know something that the CAA don't??!!!? Please don't give 'em illusions of grandure!! 
Seriously though - most of us ATCO's build in "Dump" points, such as report crossing the M25/Thames Estuary etc.
If you are really unsure where the point is (after looking at the map!!) just ask. The dump points ensure that I:
(a) Know roughly where you are if not identified
(b) Mean I can QSY you making my job easier!!!
Seriously, Solent gave you that point as they send traffic to LARS at Farnborough as it is the "boundary" of the areas of operations for both units. Controllers tend to use obvious geographical points.
I'm sure by now that the Farnborough controllers look forward to Aussie Andy's little jaunts through their zone
Seriously though - most of us ATCO's build in "Dump" points, such as report crossing the M25/Thames Estuary etc.
If you are really unsure where the point is (after looking at the map!!) just ask. The dump points ensure that I:
(a) Know roughly where you are if not identified
(b) Mean I can QSY you making my job easier!!!
Seriously, Solent gave you that point as they send traffic to LARS at Farnborough as it is the "boundary" of the areas of operations for both units. Controllers tend to use obvious geographical points.
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PPruNaholic!
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From: Buckinghamshire
Hi AlanM,
I understand why the controller needs the dump point to effect the handover and/or termination of service.
This one wasn't obvious and we had a mis-understanding of the placename via R/T. I think geographical boundaries like coasts, piers, estuaries etc. are great for this sort of thing: towns are not always so distinctive but probably second best.
Anyway, as above, I concede it was not a big deal
Andy
I understand why the controller needs the dump point to effect the handover and/or termination of service.
Controllers tend to use obvious geographical points
Anyway, as above, I concede it was not a big deal
Andy
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From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
I must admit that the small village was one I had not heard of. But I had heard of Alresford.
Like anything on the RT please ask if you are unsure. I had a chap the otherweek routeing BPK-DET. I told him to report 5 miles to run to Stapleford. He didn't know where it is but was also routeing via LAM!! He got it in the end when I said report 5dme LAM. (He also said "What River" when I told him to report Crossing the Thames!!!!!!!)
Moral here: We need to be a little more understanding when asking for reports. I think we occasionally assume everyone is a local!
Like anything on the RT please ask if you are unsure. I had a chap the otherweek routeing BPK-DET. I told him to report 5 miles to run to Stapleford. He didn't know where it is but was also routeing via LAM!! He got it in the end when I said report 5dme LAM. (He also said "What River" when I told him to report Crossing the Thames!!!!!!!)
Moral here: We need to be a little more understanding when asking for reports. I think we occasionally assume everyone is a local!
