Share or Buy?

[Andy_R]

Having qualified fairly recently I am already finding it fairly restrictive, not to mention expensive hiring from the club.

80 odd hours and rapidly approaching 100 hours, what do you forumites think?

1). Stay put with hiring til I've gained more experience

2). Obtain a share in something fairly basic - would consider PFA type, (and would be happy to then club hire for cross channel stuff)

3). Buy something cheap which would probably restrict me to a PFA type to cut down on overheads

At the moment I am just after building experience and visiting different airfields and sometimes just flying for the hell of it.... you know the type of thing : what a lovely evening, let's go up and just meander above this green and pleasant land.

My first 30 hours were on a 152, and I am current on both the PA28 and PA38. I am soon booking myself in for a taildragger course so wouldn't dismiss any of this type either.

In anticipation

Cloud

[Miserlou]

Sounds like you need a share in a Super Cub or similar.

You probably already know what type of flying you're going to be doing and it does rather sound as if you need two types; I'd go with option 2.
How about trying a little aerobatics after your tailwheel course? You may find a little aerobatic biplane (on a permit) just the thing.

[AerBabe]

It depends how tight your budget really is and what kind of flying you anticipate doing. I started to do a tailwheel conversion in a Chipmunk, but couldn't afford to keep flying it. So, I have now bought a share in a tailwheel microlight. I didn't learn to fly to get across to France and Belgium every other weekend - I learned to feel the wind in my face, get a new view on the world and just have fun. If I fancy doing more than 50 kt and having little luxuries like doors, I can always hire something for a few hours.

[Kolibear]

Hi cloud69

Were do you see your self in a couple of years time?

If you are convinced that you will still be flying - then I, personally, would recommend a share.

If on the other hand, you're not too sure, then carry on renting for a little longer.

I spent about 3-4 years renting after getting my PPL, which convinced me that i was serious about flying. At that point, I bought a share & have never regreted it since.

[mazzy1026]

I saw a great idea on here not so long ago (sorry cant remember who posted it) about buying a share. The idea was to buy the share, thus reducing the hourly rate of operation, then when you had some good hours then you could sell your share, and most probably get back what you paid for it.

Regards

Maz

[J.A.F.O.]

As someone who bought, I'd say "Buy a Share". Owning has some advantages but owning a share is probably the most cost effective way of building experience.

[Fly Stimulator]

Buy a whole aircraft if you're keen to be able to go where you want, when you want and for as long as you want. There is nothing to beat the freedom that that brings you, and there are some pretty cheap Permit types around.

Or you could find one of those groups where only a couple of people ever actually fly, but there are others in the background helping to pay for it all.

Waiting to find out how keen you are could be a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, since the costs, frustrations and restrictions of club renting may drain your enthusiasm before you get to the point of taking the plunge with something of your own.

would consider PFA type, (and would be happy to then club hire for cross channel stuff)

You wouldn't need to do that. Permit aircraft are perfectly capable of overcoming the challenge of the Channel. I took my microlight to Norway and back two weeks ago and didn't fall in the sea once.

[AerBabe]

But your microlight isn't a 'real' one, made out of two school chairs, half a bath tub, a couple of scaffolding poles and some old sheets. AND it has doors.

[Fly Stimulator]

True, but yours has all the components required to create a deck chair and a wind break should you happen to be forced down on a desert island somewhere in the massive expanse of sea between here and France!

[Evo]

AerBabe, you forgot to mention the lawnmower...

I reckon the PFA route is the way to go. £12k - £15k will buy you a nice Jodel or Aeronca, which will cost you £20-£30 per hour to fly. Hangarage is a bit of a killer down south (think £2k+ per year), so unless you can find a friendly farmer i'd look at a small group - it splits the fixed costs, but availability is still very good. Much cheaper than club hire, and, dare I say it, much more interesting too...

[Genghis the Engineer]

The other big advantage of a syndicate, over sole ownership, is that as a new pilot you're on a very steep learning curve - having people around you who already know how to operate an aircraft helps enormously.

I should join the PFA, get hold of the latest Popular Flying, and the latest Flyer / Todays Pilot, and look for existing groups to join on something local that'll give what you want. Also take a tour round the local smaller flying clubs and look on the noticeboards.

Don't discount a CofA syndicate - but a permit syndicate will probably give you a more fun aeroplane for less money.

And noting you're from Brighton, that presumably means that you are flying from Shoreham. Lovely place, but you'll struggle NOT to find cheaper flying than renting from there.

G

[strake]

Cloud69

It is the eternal circle of desire....

When I was renting, I was convinced a share would be a far better option. The share then became an outright purchase. Now, as I grit my teeth through a STAR Annual, renting or a share suddenly seems quite attractive once more.

In a months time when the pain of heartbreaking amounts of spent cash has somewhat dimmed, I will no doubt convince myself (yet again...) that availability and pride of ownership surmount all concerns in mere matters of coin.

I'm sure this has been most useful in helping you come to a decision....

[Andy_R]

You may find a little aerobatic biplane (on a permit) just the thing.

Strangely enough I've been offered a possibility of a share in one of those. Am seriously considering this option and then rent when I need a larger craft for long distance or cross channel.

kolibear

Couple of years I definitley see myself flying. What I don't want is the pleasure to be diluted by lack of availablilty and high costs per hour

Aerbabe

Exactly my point! Quite happy to rent on occasion if I can find something to use for general use and for FUN that won't break the bank

Fly Stimulator

Have I been misinformed then? I thought the restrictions of a PFA type were that one couldn't fly outside the UK or at night or in controlled airspace?
Any confirmation or denial of this would be most welcome.

Genghis

Some good points. Already member of PFA but have yet to look more closely there. Have done all the magazines but very little local to me and that is very important.

Have had a couple of offers, one PFA type and one CofA but need to explore all the options obviously before taking the plunge. I have been very encouraged by the attitude and helpfulness of those I have spoken to .. very welcoming.



If any one knows of any shares in the Sussex area, Shoreham or local strip in particular then please let me know. I will be over the 100 hour barrier too soon and looking forward to tailwheel conversion (not that I wouldn't look at a nosewheel of course)

Thanks guys for all your helpful comments as usual

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

cloud69

I've replied to your post on the other forum.

[Fly Stimulator]

Have I been misinformed then? I thought the restrictions of a PFA type were that one couldn't fly outside the UK or at night or in controlled airspace?

Good news - you have indeed been (mostly) misinformed.

The bit which is true is that you cannot use a Permit aircraft at night, or in IMC for that matter. Or over built-up areas.

You certainly can use them in controlled airspace in day VMC, even in Class A if you get a Special VFR clearance. I use just that to cut through Heathrow's airspace via Ascot and Burnham sometimes.

There is no blanket restriction on Permit (PFA, BMAA or CAA) aircraft flying outside the UK. Several such aircraft have circled the globe in fact.

The difference with Permit aircraft as opposed to C of A ones when it comes to foreign flying is that since their UK permits to fly are not part of the ICAO international agreements there is no obligation on other countries to allow you to visit. The good news is that almost all European countries have chosen to allow such visits anyway.

Some, like France and now Germany, have a issued a blanket permission and you can just file a flight plan and go. Others require you to fax them copies of your aircraft documentation first and will then grant you specific permission. One or two charge money for this (€45 for The Netherlands, €75 for Belgium) but most do it for free.

Switzerland bans microlights altogether but that is a rare exception.

In short, cross-Channel trips in PFA machines and microlights are, in the great majority of cases, no more trouble than in anything else.


By the way, where did your original misinformation come from?

[Andy_R]

By the way, where did your original misinformation come from?

A variety of sources including other spam can drivers so maybe it's not as restrictive as I thought.

When you say not over built up areas, what exactly does a built up area constitute? Any settlement or just a large conurbation, e.g Brighton and how would you fly into a lot of airports if this applied? Hope that isn't too stupid a question

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's a fair question, but with no easy answer - it's never been tested in court and CAA has declined to ever give a definitive answer.

The actual wording is "The aeroplane shall not be flown over any assembly of persons or over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement"

The add on condition is "Except when taking off or landing at a licensed or government aerodrome in accordance with normal aviation practice"


I'd suggest as a general rule of thumb, if there are enough people to get annoyed by your noise (at-least when you are low enough for them to read your registration ), or it's painted yellow on a 1:500,000 chart - it probably falls within the meaning of the act. Frankly all it's doing is forcing you to follow the sort of good, polite flying practice that anybody should be following regardless - it's not a significant restriction.

It's also very sensible to come in high and fly a glide approach if landing over any form of conurbation - but that I'd apply to anything with only one engine, regardless of the paperwork.

G

N.B. FlyStim - Switzerland came to their senses about two years ago I believe.

[Sir George Cayley]

There's been a lot of talk so far about what type of a/c to buy (into) but I always at this point bang on about the other members of the group.

I beleive that the make up of the syndicate or group is as if not more important than the machine.

Try and find a group of like minded people. Don't just buy something cos you fancy flying it only to discover one of the members is an hours builder and flys the pants off it. Or is dodgy at landing and is collecting insurance claim forms. Or is a compleat self abuser.

Ask around at clubs etc. You'll soon hear which groups are envyied for their camaraderie and eficiency and which are to be avoided.

Finally once you find this ideal group dont tell everyone just PM me there's a good chap

Sir George Cayley

[Andy_R]

A good point though that I hadn't actually thought about. Thank you.

[Fly Stimulator]

FlyStim - Switzerland came to their senses about two years ago I believe.

Great news if it's true Genghis, but are you quite sure? According to the very useful European Microlight Federation site:

Microlight flying is not allowed in Switzerland (including Liechtenstein).

However since September 26th 2002 the SMF, together with AeCS and BAZL (Luftfahrtamt) are talking of allowing microlights into Switzerland.

Probably in 2005 there will be a Ecolight class, comparable to the Light Sport Aircraft in the USA.

There is also an outfit called the BMAA which publishes a document here which says the same thing.

If this restriction really has been removed then it is good news indeed. I flew through some beautiful Swiss mountain valleys last year in a SEP machine and it would be nice to repeat the experience when I'm down at Habsheim in a few weeks in the microlight.