Aerobatic manoeuvre
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What you describe is a tail-slide w'thout the slide which makes it a humpty-bump with little or no forward speed. Bear in mind the direction in which the manouvre is flown with regard to the wind will influence it's appearance from the ground.
All that is required is that the propwash over the elevators is sufficient to keep the nose going down (or up) at a rate such that the wing remains unloaded.
The gyroscopics and lack of airflow over the rest of the wing make it a slightly fiddly manouvre and easy to screw up. Controls banging against stops and structural damage to wood and fabric control surfaces have left tailslides out of favour.
All that is required is that the propwash over the elevators is sufficient to keep the nose going down (or up) at a rate such that the wing remains unloaded.
The gyroscopics and lack of airflow over the rest of the wing make it a slightly fiddly manouvre and easy to screw up. Controls banging against stops and structural damage to wood and fabric control surfaces have left tailslides out of favour.
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Depends on the aeroplane, SSD.
A Laser will do it quite neatly.
I can beleive that! The most exotic aeroplane I've aeroed is the '52, which won't. And the Chippy and similar low-powered types certainly won't. Paulo - I think you are right
, but I've had tailslides that haven't gone the way I was expecting
.
SSD
A Laser will do it quite neatly.
I can beleive that! The most exotic aeroplane I've aeroed is the '52, which won't. And the Chippy and similar low-powered types certainly won't. Paulo - I think you are right
, but I've had tailslides that haven't gone the way I was expecting .SSD
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Great thread!
I've been doing some aero's to get my AOPA certificate in a T67 (Slingsby Firefly). This has some lateral strakes near the fin which seem to counter adverse yaw and also (i think) help in spins, but they mean I don't need opposite aileron in a stall turn - just a smidge of forward stick and she cuts the air nicely.
I've been doing some aero's to get my AOPA certificate in a T67 (Slingsby Firefly). This has some lateral strakes near the fin which seem to counter adverse yaw and also (i think) help in spins, but they mean I don't need opposite aileron in a stall turn - just a smidge of forward stick and she cuts the air nicely.
Did my first ever dual spin today......
I now see why people become unstuck !!!
I decided not to try it myself. Leave that until the next lesson. My instructor said, we'll just do one or two each lesson until you get used to it.
I'm learning in a firefly. He said it was a good aircraft to learn in, as it forces you to recover it, rather than some aircraft that recover themselves if you give them the stick.
Also, do we have any other left handers on here? I'm left handed, but nearly always fly with my right hand. Doesn't appear to cause me any problems. Just wondered how other goggy handers found it?
I now see why people become unstuck !!!
I decided not to try it myself. Leave that until the next lesson. My instructor said, we'll just do one or two each lesson until you get used to it.
I'm learning in a firefly. He said it was a good aircraft to learn in, as it forces you to recover it, rather than some aircraft that recover themselves if you give them the stick.
Also, do we have any other left handers on here? I'm left handed, but nearly always fly with my right hand. Doesn't appear to cause me any problems. Just wondered how other goggy handers found it?
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I'm right handed, but fly with my left - just seemed an obvious thing for left seat flying (right hand can do flaps etc). By my logic, a southpaw choosing to fly righthanded is the worst of both worlds! 
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Also, do we have any other left handers on here?
Most aircraft, I fly with my left hand, but I've flown a few types which need to be flown with the right hand (throttle on the left), and have been flying from the right hand seat (with my right hand) during my FIC. I've never had any problems switching from one to the other. I think I'm probably in a minority, though, from having spoken to other pilots. (And I would gladly swap this not-very-useful talent for an ability to fly more accurately with either one hand or the other, I don't care which!)
Not sure what this has got to do with humpty-bumps. Never heard of the humpty-bump before - excellent thread! Out of interest, why is this manoevre not as widely known or taught as the stall-turn? Is it very difficult?
FFF
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FFF
All compound aerobatic maneouvers are made up of components of rolls, loops, spins and turns with straight line segments on the vertical, horizontal or 45.
There are a plethora of different maneouvers detailed in the Aresti catalogue (red book) - as some are more difficult than others they ONLY feature in higher levels of competition.
Eg., in UK standard/US sportsman, there is no negative G maneouvers. Negative and flick/snap maneouvers start to creep into Intermediate.
UK Standard quite frequently feature the pull humpty but the push humpty (negative over the top) will not rear its head until intermediate.
Are either difficult? Not really - but to do a nice high scoring one takes time and lots of Avgas!
Stik
All compound aerobatic maneouvers are made up of components of rolls, loops, spins and turns with straight line segments on the vertical, horizontal or 45.
There are a plethora of different maneouvers detailed in the Aresti catalogue (red book) - as some are more difficult than others they ONLY feature in higher levels of competition.
Eg., in UK standard/US sportsman, there is no negative G maneouvers. Negative and flick/snap maneouvers start to creep into Intermediate.
UK Standard quite frequently feature the pull humpty but the push humpty (negative over the top) will not rear its head until intermediate.
Are either difficult? Not really - but to do a nice high scoring one takes time and lots of Avgas!
Stik
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SSD
You mentioned that you need more and more left rudder to hold the a/c vertical as it slows with full power and therefore stall turn left is not ideal as you have little additional rudder.
If you pull the power back just prior to turn would regain sufficent authority?
In the aircraft I fly it doesn't really matter too much, especially my stall turns, they're cr*p anyway!
You mentioned that you need more and more left rudder to hold the a/c vertical as it slows with full power and therefore stall turn left is not ideal as you have little additional rudder.
If you pull the power back just prior to turn would regain sufficent authority?
In the aircraft I fly it doesn't really matter too much, especially my stall turns, they're cr*p anyway!
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SR - yes, just about the only way to get it to go left is to pull the power - but then there's good chance of stopping the engine, and it's more 'nose dropping to the left' manouvre rather than a nice rotation in Yaw.
SSD
SSD
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SR - do be aware that SSD is speaking about stall-turning a Yak or a Chippie.
If you stall turn an American engined aeroplane then you face the same predicament but of course on the other side - ie you need increasing right rudder on the way up behind a Lyc/Con and of course at the top, full left rudder pedal will give you more than half the available deflection.
Pulling power (once the nose has started to slice downwards) also reduces the possibility of the aircraft torqueing in yaw.
Accurately capturing the vertical on the up-line also diminishes the real possibility of the aeroplane very obviously scribing a positive (canopy up) or negative (canopy down) yaw when seen from the ground!
Yakker's comment about AC's book is very valid - however, if he'd had it printed in a handy two volume softback A5 format, then I could take it up with me and revise immediately before I tried any new maneouvers!
Stik
If you stall turn an American engined aeroplane then you face the same predicament but of course on the other side - ie you need increasing right rudder on the way up behind a Lyc/Con and of course at the top, full left rudder pedal will give you more than half the available deflection.
Pulling power (once the nose has started to slice downwards) also reduces the possibility of the aircraft torqueing in yaw.
Accurately capturing the vertical on the up-line also diminishes the real possibility of the aeroplane very obviously scribing a positive (canopy up) or negative (canopy down) yaw when seen from the ground!
Yakker's comment about AC's book is very valid - however, if he'd had it printed in a handy two volume softback A5 format, then I could take it up with me and revise immediately before I tried any new maneouvers!
Stik
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Would also echo support for Alan's book - don't be put off by the poor picture on the cover! His description of the basic aeros is excellent, including a good graphic in there on the slow roll which shows the timing and amount (and direction) of aileron, elevator and rudder input all the way around the circle. Great help in keeping the rate of roll constant all the way around and especially through that demanding last quarter, although coming out whilst NOT cross-controlled will take more than a little practice!
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Got 'em all!
Robson is nice summary.
Szurovy & Goulian is beautiful - the 'outtakes' make the book unique. In between the dry technical stuff, the stories add some colour and lots of inspiration.
Cassidy. The most in depth text I've ever read. No other book compares for me. My only irritation - and this is a compliment I think - that reading it only makes me want to ask many many more questions. If I could have made it a perfect book, I would have added some 'asides' - anecdotes to intersperse the instructional text. Nonethelss fascinating. Could easily have been twice the size and still left you wanting more.
Robson is nice summary.
Szurovy & Goulian is beautiful - the 'outtakes' make the book unique. In between the dry technical stuff, the stories add some colour and lots of inspiration.
Cassidy. The most in depth text I've ever read. No other book compares for me. My only irritation - and this is a compliment I think - that reading it only makes me want to ask many many more questions. If I could have made it a perfect book, I would have added some 'asides' - anecdotes to intersperse the instructional text. Nonethelss fascinating. Could easily have been twice the size and still left you wanting more.
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Stall turns
To help you turn against the engine (or with it, for that matter), try introducing a little opposite rudder during the pull up and counteract with a tad of aileron to keep the aircraft straight. So for a stall turn to the right, feed in left rudder and right aileron during the pull up. This will result in you carrying left rudder in the vertical with the aircraft sliding to the right. The turn at the top then becomes much cleaner. This is particularly useful if the wind is from the right and you want the figure to pivot around a point when viewed from the ground.
Humpties
With the humpty bump, as previously mentioned, a difference to the stall turn is that the aircraft has to have a significant angle of attack over the top, whereas the stall turn is performed at zero angle of attack. In fact, to get a constant radius round the top you normally have to pull (or push) into buffet during the second half of the figure. This effectively determines the minimum airspeed you can start the turnaround without allowing the second half to finish lower than where you started.
Having said that, it is possible on some types to achieve CBL’s manoeuvre. It is possible to contrive to have a figure end in the vertical but carrying significant rudder. So, with a lycoming engine, if you end up carrying left rudder at the top of the vertical you can push and at the same time kick in full right rudder. Elevator and precession will (hopefully) neatly cause the aircraft to swap ends. Only some aircraft, though, and lots of stresses and strains involved. (This, incidentally, is not a lomcevak).
TAC
To help you turn against the engine (or with it, for that matter), try introducing a little opposite rudder during the pull up and counteract with a tad of aileron to keep the aircraft straight. So for a stall turn to the right, feed in left rudder and right aileron during the pull up. This will result in you carrying left rudder in the vertical with the aircraft sliding to the right. The turn at the top then becomes much cleaner. This is particularly useful if the wind is from the right and you want the figure to pivot around a point when viewed from the ground.
Humpties
With the humpty bump, as previously mentioned, a difference to the stall turn is that the aircraft has to have a significant angle of attack over the top, whereas the stall turn is performed at zero angle of attack. In fact, to get a constant radius round the top you normally have to pull (or push) into buffet during the second half of the figure. This effectively determines the minimum airspeed you can start the turnaround without allowing the second half to finish lower than where you started.
Having said that, it is possible on some types to achieve CBL’s manoeuvre. It is possible to contrive to have a figure end in the vertical but carrying significant rudder. So, with a lycoming engine, if you end up carrying left rudder at the top of the vertical you can push and at the same time kick in full right rudder. Elevator and precession will (hopefully) neatly cause the aircraft to swap ends. Only some aircraft, though, and lots of stresses and strains involved. (This, incidentally, is not a lomcevak).
TAC
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Aerobatics by Neil Williams
djp,
I have this book and agree that it is a good book but IMHO it explains the maneouvers without actually teaching you how to fly them.
The books by Cassidy, Muller, Szuvroy and Goulian are far more prescriptive.
Bill Thomas' books are quite good too, especially for a Pitts pilot.
Williams' book's strength is that the anecdotes make very interesting reading.
(really hope that the apostrophisation in the preceeding sentence is correct before FNG, BEagle and the rest of the apostrophe police descend upon me!)
Stik
I have this book and agree that it is a good book but IMHO it explains the maneouvers without actually teaching you how to fly them.
The books by Cassidy, Muller, Szuvroy and Goulian are far more prescriptive.
Bill Thomas' books are quite good too, especially for a Pitts pilot.
Williams' book's strength is that the anecdotes make very interesting reading.
(really hope that the apostrophisation in the preceeding sentence is correct before FNG, BEagle and the rest of the apostrophe police descend upon me!)
Stik
Not so N, but still FG
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All correct, Stik. In fact, your previous convictions may now count as spent, as two of the apostrophe usages in your post are at Advanced or Unlimited Level, and Lynnne Truss would approve.
As you say, the Williams book is more a collection of anecdotes than a manual of instruction. Perhaps he was cautious about giving away trade secrets.
As you say, the Williams book is more a collection of anecdotes than a manual of instruction. Perhaps he was cautious about giving away trade secrets.
Last edited by FNG; 7th Jun 2004 at 12:43.
