Flying the Alps
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Flying the Alps
Hope to visit friends in Northern Italy (near Brescia / Lake Garda) this august using a PA28. Weighing up pro's / cons of flying the designated routes through the alpine valleys or routing down the western side and through Milan air space.
Any past experiences / tales etc appreciated.
Any past experiences / tales etc appreciated.
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I have lived near the Swiss Italian border for several years, and have only once flown up the valleys as far as Lugano, and that with a local Swiss pilot.
The local concensus is that Italy is too difficult for VFR flights, particularly in the Milan area.
The local concensus is that Italy is too difficult for VFR flights, particularly in the Milan area.
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bluskis
Can you elaborate on why Italy is too difficult for VFR flights? Looking at the charts I can't see a problem, if one has a plane that can go high enough to get over the Alps, and the weather is clear. The airspace is crowded though.
Can you elaborate on why Italy is too difficult for VFR flights? Looking at the charts I can't see a problem, if one has a plane that can go high enough to get over the Alps, and the weather is clear. The airspace is crowded though.
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Worth having a look at the Italian VFR Jepp map and then re-thinking anything that involves Milan. There's an awful lot of very low Class A. There are VFR routes but they seem to meander all over the place. I think there are also special rules for the airspace north of Milan to the mountains - I seem to remember seeing these in the Diverse section of Bottlang for some reason. Suffice to say, I was in Slovenia a couple of weeks back and spent an evening trying to find a suitable VFR route back across Italy to Lyon avoiding Class A and couldn't see any particularly reasonable way of doing it.
That said, as the weather forced me to go east of the Alps, I didn't try - maybe I would have got special VFR direct the whole way - who knows. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of options if you are refused a CAS clearance though.
That said, as the weather forced me to go east of the Alps, I didn't try - maybe I would have got special VFR direct the whole way - who knows. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of options if you are refused a CAS clearance though.
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There appears to be a way to go from e.g. Venice to the NW, at up to FL130 or so. I agree that trying to do that from Milan is very difficult; it appears possible but one would be relying entirely on a GPS to navigate a very complex route.
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Compounding the difficulties of VFR in Italy are, lack of refuelling at many airfields. poor radio English, customs bureauracy, and mountains, and climb performance of a PA 28 at altitude, plus navigation by local knowledge, including which valleys actually lead to where yo want to go.
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Ignoring the altitude performance of a PA28 for the moment, why (apart from getting specific views) would one want to fly in the valleys? Surely one would fly at the MSA, which is 2000ft above the highest elevation within 5nm?
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I spent 2001/2 working in Trento (same latitude as the top of Lake Garda) and gliding occasionally from the airstrip there. Brescia is at the foot of the valley, where it runs into the plain of the Po valley - I'd guess about 100km away - and there's a continual stream of traffic arriving from Germany and Austria.
Facilities seemed to be good, and the atmosphere was friendly and welcoming. ATC is in both Italian and English - which can be heavily accented, depending upon who's in the tower, but visitors seem to have no problem. The airstrip has Avgas and jet fuel, together with a good hotel/restaurant and the delightful Caproni air museum all as part of the same complex. In addition to the stream of visitors, there's a helicopter school, a handful of light aircraft and the gliding club (aerotow only). There are also the local rescue choppers, which will be given priority. It generally seemed a well organized and disciplined operation.
Security has tightened over the last three years, and I understand that visiting aircraft have to chat to the local police about their documents upon arrival. This is, of course, a routine event for them - it'll probably happen a dozen times on a sunny weekend afternoon - but they may have to pop out from the nearest police station, giving you just about time for a coffee in the hotel bar.
The Jeppessen charts used to indicate a swathe of controlled lower (and higher) level airspace over the region. Nobody I spoke to could understand this: the airspace was regarded as uncontrolled. Nearby airfields are Bolzano (up the valley) and Verona and Brescia to the south, with controlled airspace only in the latter region.
Let me know if you decide to go this route, and I'll dig out some contact details for the folk down there - the gliding CFI is the airport manager. The tower folk are very friendly, especially if you can talk about Formula One! And the museum is well worth a visit.
Windrusher
Facilities seemed to be good, and the atmosphere was friendly and welcoming. ATC is in both Italian and English - which can be heavily accented, depending upon who's in the tower, but visitors seem to have no problem. The airstrip has Avgas and jet fuel, together with a good hotel/restaurant and the delightful Caproni air museum all as part of the same complex. In addition to the stream of visitors, there's a helicopter school, a handful of light aircraft and the gliding club (aerotow only). There are also the local rescue choppers, which will be given priority. It generally seemed a well organized and disciplined operation.
Security has tightened over the last three years, and I understand that visiting aircraft have to chat to the local police about their documents upon arrival. This is, of course, a routine event for them - it'll probably happen a dozen times on a sunny weekend afternoon - but they may have to pop out from the nearest police station, giving you just about time for a coffee in the hotel bar.
The Jeppessen charts used to indicate a swathe of controlled lower (and higher) level airspace over the region. Nobody I spoke to could understand this: the airspace was regarded as uncontrolled. Nearby airfields are Bolzano (up the valley) and Verona and Brescia to the south, with controlled airspace only in the latter region.
Let me know if you decide to go this route, and I'll dig out some contact details for the folk down there - the gliding CFI is the airport manager. The tower folk are very friendly, especially if you can talk about Formula One! And the museum is well worth a visit.
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I've flown single engine across the alps on a number of occasions.
On a good day there's nothing to beat it.
I've mainly used the western alps. e.g. Gap to Cuneo via Barcolonette and Chambery to Torino via Modane, Moncenisio pass.
Chambery had a good met station with a remote sensor actually on the pass.
You need to be very aware of mountain conditions; funnel winds, katabatics, Foehn etc. VFR conditions in summer are generally best in the morning, before clouds have built up. I prefer the wider valleys with road passes as offering the most options in an emergency.
VFR in Italy is not too bad. Milano like frequent position reports (no more than 30 minutes apart). Though the altitude limits can sometimes make for difficult reception.
I lived for a few years near Torino, and can recommend the flying scenery.
On a good day there's nothing to beat it.
I've mainly used the western alps. e.g. Gap to Cuneo via Barcolonette and Chambery to Torino via Modane, Moncenisio pass.
Chambery had a good met station with a remote sensor actually on the pass.
You need to be very aware of mountain conditions; funnel winds, katabatics, Foehn etc. VFR conditions in summer are generally best in the morning, before clouds have built up. I prefer the wider valleys with road passes as offering the most options in an emergency.
VFR in Italy is not too bad. Milano like frequent position reports (no more than 30 minutes apart). Though the altitude limits can sometimes make for difficult reception.
I lived for a few years near Torino, and can recommend the flying scenery.
Not so N, but still FG
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A good read...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...634551-8018212
Sometimes you would have to enter a valley to approach a landing site. Of course, identifying the right valey would be moderately important.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...634551-8018212
Sometimes you would have to enter a valley to approach a landing site. Of course, identifying the right valey would be moderately important.
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IO
Holyflyer specified he was thinking of routing Milan or along the valleys, hence my advice. He did not say he was thinking of flying IFR safety heights. If you turn up the wrong valley , you will be in severe difficulties even if you are up to date with canyon turns.
Holyflyer specified he was thinking of routing Milan or along the valleys, hence my advice. He did not say he was thinking of flying IFR safety heights. If you turn up the wrong valley , you will be in severe difficulties even if you are up to date with canyon turns.
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Flying at the MSA doesn't imply IFR. VFR flight should be done at the MSA too, if possible.
But I haven't flown in mountains, unless flying at FL130 in southern Spain (over the Sierra Nevada range) counts as mountain flying.
Having read a few articles (no whole books yet) about the subject I just wonder if there really is a problem flying over mountains at say 2000ft above the peaks. I know there can be turbulence but is one really likely to be dragged down below if one was 2000ft above?
But I haven't flown in mountains, unless flying at FL130 in southern Spain (over the Sierra Nevada range) counts as mountain flying.
Having read a few articles (no whole books yet) about the subject I just wonder if there really is a problem flying over mountains at say 2000ft above the peaks. I know there can be turbulence but is one really likely to be dragged down below if one was 2000ft above?
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IO
I would say 2000 ft above the nearest point within 10nm should be OK, assuming no standing waves in the area, in VMC
However, if flying the valley routes, it is important to have local Visual knowledge of the mountains, and do things like not entering a valley until you have assessed the situation in that valley. This is usually done by approaching a pass at 45 degrees,
so if unsure you can complete a 360. Fly close to one side of the valley to give the best room for a 360. Expect shadows cast by the mountains to be confusing towards dusk.
For what its worth I think 2000 ft clearance is not enough crossing the Pyrenees in IMC, especially if there is CB activity.
I would say 2000 ft above the nearest point within 10nm should be OK, assuming no standing waves in the area, in VMC
However, if flying the valley routes, it is important to have local Visual knowledge of the mountains, and do things like not entering a valley until you have assessed the situation in that valley. This is usually done by approaching a pass at 45 degrees,
so if unsure you can complete a 360. Fly close to one side of the valley to give the best room for a 360. Expect shadows cast by the mountains to be confusing towards dusk.
For what its worth I think 2000 ft clearance is not enough crossing the Pyrenees in IMC, especially if there is CB activity.
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blukis
I have crossed the Pyrenees a few times and having been stuck at LFBZ, alongside a few bizjets with IR pilots destined for Spain, I wouldn't cross them at any altitude in IMC if there was CB activity
I have crossed the Pyrenees a few times and having been stuck at LFBZ, alongside a few bizjets with IR pilots destined for Spain, I wouldn't cross them at any altitude in IMC if there was CB activity
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I do most of my flying in the mountains on the French / Italian border.
Flying through the valleys from France to Italy is a perfectly feasible thing to do, and the only problem with doing it in a PA28 would be the climb performance if you were heavily loaded on a warm August day.
But...... there are lots of things to be very aware of, and it's not advisable to try to navigate through the mountains if you aren't very familiar with them.
First, map reading. A standard 1:500,000 chart is completely useless in the Alps. I've got to know my local area fairly well, and don't use a map. If I am planning a flight outside my normal area, I study the 1:100,000 chart in detail on the ground, work out where the valleys I want are in relation to landmarks, and try to figure out where the cables are likely to be.
Second, cables. The alpine valleys are full of cables, and only a few of them are marked on maps. Below the treeline, there are numerous cables left from current or past logging operations. Above the treeline there are cables used to transport explosives used for causing small avalanches. One valley near the Italian border just South West of Mont Blanc has 6 of these cables in a very small area, and they aren't marked anywhere. They are several hundred feet above ground level.
Third, navigation error. If you turn up the wrong valley, it can spoil your day. You always need to be aware of how much space you need to make a 180 degree turn, and you need to make that turn as soon as you are in any doubt about your position.
Fourth, weather. In mid summer it can be extremely turbulent, and the myth about the downdrafts not going all the way to the ground is just that - a myth. I know a PA28 pilot and a glider pilot who both crashed because of this. You need to be aware of the upper winds, and the likely local wind / thermal effects. It's quite feasible to fly, and if you use the thermals well you can have a lot of fun - but you need to know what to expect, and your passengers may need sick bags. You can also expect a lot of cumulus build up in the afternoon, which makes identification of landmarks difficult, and you can expect CB development on many / most warm afternoons. You really want to be on the ground then.
Fifth, airspace. There are numerous nature reserves which you mustn't overfly at less than 1000ft AGL, and you need to know where they are. There are also national parks which have a 3000ft AGL limit.
I don't want to put you off - there's no more exhilarating flying than mountain flying. But do be forewarned, and preferably have a flight with a mountain instructor. In a couple of hours flying he will be able to make you very aware of all the major hazards, and you'll be able to enjoy the experience a lot more.
Flying through the valleys from France to Italy is a perfectly feasible thing to do, and the only problem with doing it in a PA28 would be the climb performance if you were heavily loaded on a warm August day.
But...... there are lots of things to be very aware of, and it's not advisable to try to navigate through the mountains if you aren't very familiar with them.
First, map reading. A standard 1:500,000 chart is completely useless in the Alps. I've got to know my local area fairly well, and don't use a map. If I am planning a flight outside my normal area, I study the 1:100,000 chart in detail on the ground, work out where the valleys I want are in relation to landmarks, and try to figure out where the cables are likely to be.
Second, cables. The alpine valleys are full of cables, and only a few of them are marked on maps. Below the treeline, there are numerous cables left from current or past logging operations. Above the treeline there are cables used to transport explosives used for causing small avalanches. One valley near the Italian border just South West of Mont Blanc has 6 of these cables in a very small area, and they aren't marked anywhere. They are several hundred feet above ground level.
Third, navigation error. If you turn up the wrong valley, it can spoil your day. You always need to be aware of how much space you need to make a 180 degree turn, and you need to make that turn as soon as you are in any doubt about your position.
Fourth, weather. In mid summer it can be extremely turbulent, and the myth about the downdrafts not going all the way to the ground is just that - a myth. I know a PA28 pilot and a glider pilot who both crashed because of this. You need to be aware of the upper winds, and the likely local wind / thermal effects. It's quite feasible to fly, and if you use the thermals well you can have a lot of fun - but you need to know what to expect, and your passengers may need sick bags. You can also expect a lot of cumulus build up in the afternoon, which makes identification of landmarks difficult, and you can expect CB development on many / most warm afternoons. You really want to be on the ground then.
Fifth, airspace. There are numerous nature reserves which you mustn't overfly at less than 1000ft AGL, and you need to know where they are. There are also national parks which have a 3000ft AGL limit.
I don't want to put you off - there's no more exhilarating flying than mountain flying. But do be forewarned, and preferably have a flight with a mountain instructor. In a couple of hours flying he will be able to make you very aware of all the major hazards, and you'll be able to enjoy the experience a lot more.
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Many thanks to all for the really helpful advice.
Interestingly, this months "Pilot" arrived today. Reading it on the train and there is an article on flying the alps into Italy. I had pencilled in 3 possible crossings of the Alps:
1. Annecy - Milan Area - Brescia
2. St. Gallen - Chur - St. Bernadino Pass - Como - Brescia
3. Brescia - Innsbruck
Two of the three are covered in the article, plus tips on Italian red tape and lack of fuel.
Interestingly, this months "Pilot" arrived today. Reading it on the train and there is an article on flying the alps into Italy. I had pencilled in 3 possible crossings of the Alps:
1. Annecy - Milan Area - Brescia
2. St. Gallen - Chur - St. Bernadino Pass - Como - Brescia
3. Brescia - Innsbruck
Two of the three are covered in the article, plus tips on Italian red tape and lack of fuel.
