Tips for landing....
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I think the point is that there seems to be a reluctance to give really good, pertinent pattered demos.
It's more difficult than letting the student fly and just critiquing after (and during - yuk!)
It's more difficult than letting the student fly and just critiquing after (and during - yuk!)
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TSF
I'm not sure that Randomtox is being taught to land. Recent lessons will most likely have been turns and general handling.
Letting a student come in on finals is the perfect way of showing why its essential that these skills are honed.
It is very easy, when learning, to think that you have grasped turns about a quarter of the way through the lesson. The reality of being on final always shows that there is more to this part of the skill set than was apparent at 2000ft.
Good luck Randomtox, it will all come together very soon.
I'm not sure that Randomtox is being taught to land. Recent lessons will most likely have been turns and general handling.
Letting a student come in on finals is the perfect way of showing why its essential that these skills are honed.
It is very easy, when learning, to think that you have grasped turns about a quarter of the way through the lesson. The reality of being on final always shows that there is more to this part of the skill set than was apparent at 2000ft.
Good luck Randomtox, it will all come together very soon.
Northern Monkey
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A good landing will normally start with the approach stable by at least 3 or 400 feet. If a student has more practice from an early stage at keeping an aircraft stable on approach until 40 or 50ft, then when they move onto landing, they will find them easier, as they are used to flying the approach already.
I dont see any reason why a student shouldnt fly an approach, until 40-50ft as soon as they are able to control pitch roll and power, which should be after a couple of hours.
NB
I dont see any reason why a student shouldnt fly an approach, until 40-50ft as soon as they are able to control pitch roll and power, which should be after a couple of hours.
NB
Not so N, but still FG
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My instructor had me fly half way down the approach on my second lesson, and land on my third, and I was far from being a gifted student.
I have heard tell of instructors not letting their students taxi, or use the radio, until well into the course. I'm glad that mine, from lesson one, had me try pretty much everything, under his supervision.
I have heard tell of instructors not letting their students taxi, or use the radio, until well into the course. I'm glad that mine, from lesson one, had me try pretty much everything, under his supervision.
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All,
thanks very much indeed for all your posts ! Very interesting reading ! As has been mentioned - I haven't actually been taught anything to do with landing yet - just been allowed to attempt the line up with the runway.
My key question - one that has been answered in abundance (thanks) was essentially - 'is landing incredibly difficult that takes ages to master / how do you do it ' - the answer seems to be 'No - it isn't a black art - you just need to practice (and don't expect to be doing this with the grand total of 4 hrs flight time under your belt !!!!'.......fair enough !
At the moment, for me, the learning curve re: flying is like the learning curve re: skiing. It looks so easy yet seems so hard - then suddenly you think - wow - I just did it !
Thanks again for all your responses ! (and if anyone needs tips on skiing - PM me !)
cheers
R
thanks very much indeed for all your posts ! Very interesting reading ! As has been mentioned - I haven't actually been taught anything to do with landing yet - just been allowed to attempt the line up with the runway.
My key question - one that has been answered in abundance (thanks) was essentially - 'is landing incredibly difficult that takes ages to master / how do you do it ' - the answer seems to be 'No - it isn't a black art - you just need to practice (and don't expect to be doing this with the grand total of 4 hrs flight time under your belt !!!!'.......fair enough !
At the moment, for me, the learning curve re: flying is like the learning curve re: skiing. It looks so easy yet seems so hard - then suddenly you think - wow - I just did it !
Thanks again for all your responses ! (and if anyone needs tips on skiing - PM me !)
cheers
R
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FNG,
Same with my instructors. It makes a huge difference. Something to do with that "I do I understand" quote.
Randomtox,
You akin flying to skiing, not a skier so can't compare. Specifically, I would compare landing to golf. With the two, too much thinking and analysis leads to occasional brilliance countered by often pretty shoddy results.
I have heard tell of instructors not letting their students taxi, or use the radio, until well into the course. I'm glad that mine, from lesson one, had me try pretty much everything, under his supervision.
Randomtox,
You akin flying to skiing, not a skier so can't compare. Specifically, I would compare landing to golf. With the two, too much thinking and analysis leads to occasional brilliance countered by often pretty shoddy results.
High Flying Bird
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HWD, I don't think Randomtox was comparing the two, just trying to offer some help in return for ours. However, there are similarities - both rely on a couple of planks of wood to keep you upright.
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Thanks again for all your responses ! (and if anyone needs tips on skiing - PM me !)
As for the landings, don't take any notice of the chap who advised you to change your instructor. Pay attention to his advice about keeping your aiming point in a fixed position on the windscreen, and try to note the point on the windscreen where it is fixed. It's not easy to start with, but it'll come.
If you choose the right aiming point, fix it where it should be on your windscreen and set the power and flaps - you will find that you consistently fly approaches at just the right speed, with just the right rate of descent, and consistently touch down just where you want without really having to try.
It'll stand you in good stead for landing on shorter runways, and very good stead if you ever decide to mix your hobies by flying a ski-equipped aeroplane.
I don't see how anyone can judge when a student is ready or not to fly an approach from a posting on a BBS, no matter what it says. Only the instructor in the aeroplane with the student can make that call.
IIRC I was following through with the instructor(s) very early on in my training, and I was 'forced' to use the radio from lesson 1. (A/G airfield)
This might not happen with every student at every flight school, indeed reading some of the other postings on this tread, it clearly doesn't.
To cut to the chase, isn't the only correct way to teach a student the one that teaches them to fly without endangering either themselves or anyone else? Different teaching methods suit different types of people, that is what marks out a good instructor. Not one that just delivers a vanilla training course.
I'm quite happy to listen to constructive criticism and indeed I ask for it at work. I would and did welcome such comments about my flying training no matter when they were delivered and about what period of my flight.
Just my 2p
IIRC I was following through with the instructor(s) very early on in my training, and I was 'forced' to use the radio from lesson 1. (A/G airfield)
This might not happen with every student at every flight school, indeed reading some of the other postings on this tread, it clearly doesn't.
To cut to the chase, isn't the only correct way to teach a student the one that teaches them to fly without endangering either themselves or anyone else? Different teaching methods suit different types of people, that is what marks out a good instructor. Not one that just delivers a vanilla training course.
I'm quite happy to listen to constructive criticism and indeed I ask for it at work. I would and did welcome such comments about my flying training no matter when they were delivered and about what period of my flight.
Just my 2p
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On my few attempts to land a fixed wing, I made a mess in my pants (well not literally, but nearly). My advice is to give up aeroplanes and fly helicopters. The idea of deliberately hitting the ground at anything more than walking pace is beyond me 
Best one I heard about learning to land was from a pilot friend being taught by an instructor who was a keen cricketer. "Try to look at a point on the runway about a cricket pitch away as you flare" was the latter's advice. The student visualised the Oval, picked a point a few hundred yards away, and landings miraculously improved. It later turned out that the instructor had meant 22 yards.
You'll get the hang of it...
You'll get the hang of it...
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Some interesting points of view from a lot of chaps out there. I suspect from your reaction that a few of you are not instructors. Those of you that are, are you really suggesting that a student should be taught a flight excercise (And we are talking about ex13 - Note the number, it bears a direct relationship to the stage of the entire flight training syllabus) without first giving a THOROUGH ground briefing?
Only one of the contributors (Sorry can't remember your name off the top of my head) recognised and enourmous potential benefit of a good pattered demonstration of an approach to land and he is quite correct in his comment that the reason most instructors opt for the "Let the student fly it and then take control approach" is that the correct method (pattered demo) is far more difficult!
As for the comment about just pointing the nose towards the runway, setting the correct power and correct flap setting - tell me. What was the correct power setting for an approach in a piper arrow for runway 19 at Redhill at 14:00 Today?
Would it be the same as the approach at 14:00 last Sunday?
I think (or at least hope!) that you see my point. which is that the correct power setting for any given approach on any given type of aircraft will vary according to conditions. You guys all understand this and can deal with it without any problem because you are all experienced pilots and you have been taught how to manage your ROD & airspeed. After 4 hours on a correctly structured course of training the student has not.
I'm not sure how the thread drifted towards Taxying and Radio operation! I agree that your instructor should introduce you to both of the above sooner rather than later. We teach Taxying from day 1 - We teach RT from day 1. We do not teach ex 13 from day 1.
Only one of the contributors (Sorry can't remember your name off the top of my head) recognised and enourmous potential benefit of a good pattered demonstration of an approach to land and he is quite correct in his comment that the reason most instructors opt for the "Let the student fly it and then take control approach" is that the correct method (pattered demo) is far more difficult!
As for the comment about just pointing the nose towards the runway, setting the correct power and correct flap setting - tell me. What was the correct power setting for an approach in a piper arrow for runway 19 at Redhill at 14:00 Today?
Would it be the same as the approach at 14:00 last Sunday?
I think (or at least hope!) that you see my point. which is that the correct power setting for any given approach on any given type of aircraft will vary according to conditions. You guys all understand this and can deal with it without any problem because you are all experienced pilots and you have been taught how to manage your ROD & airspeed. After 4 hours on a correctly structured course of training the student has not.
I'm not sure how the thread drifted towards Taxying and Radio operation! I agree that your instructor should introduce you to both of the above sooner rather than later. We teach Taxying from day 1 - We teach RT from day 1. We do not teach ex 13 from day 1.
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"The idea of deliberately hitting the ground at anything more than walking pace is beyond me"
in a heli just take your hands off the controls - I think you'll find it'll come easy enough
in a heli just take your hands off the controls - I think you'll find it'll come easy enough
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Hi Silverfox
Not being an instructor I don't have your in depth view of teaching people to fly. I did however, learn ... so I guess that does give me some idea of how it's done.
In my case I originally learnt to fly gliders, which by their very nature, tends to require you to learn landings very early on. The average early flights last only a few minutes so you make the most of the whole flight. I soloed in under 4 hours with 32 landings to my credit, so as you'll see, landing can be taught within a very short time. I'm not saying this to blow my own trumpet as many glider pilots go solo very quickly (especially the young ones, I was 18 at the time). My point is ... surely there is more to it than just teaching in a set pattern or by excersises in a defined order? I realise training needs to be structured, but if "X" must always be taught before "Y", what happens when the weather prevents this? Surely on days when upper airwork is not possible, circuit and landing training can be achieved? or do you just cancel and say "sorry mate ... until you've done X I can't possibly start to teach you Y"? With our weather you'd take for ever to learn if a rigid 1,2,3 approach is used.
I do wonder if some instructors find it easier or in their own minds safer to hold back on the first solo until they have virtually taught the fledgling pilot everything. I recently had a student tell me that she couldn't go solo before 25 hours as that was the law? ... since when? I think her instructor was being a wee bit economical with the truth there!
SS
Not being an instructor I don't have your in depth view of teaching people to fly. I did however, learn ... so I guess that does give me some idea of how it's done.
In my case I originally learnt to fly gliders, which by their very nature, tends to require you to learn landings very early on. The average early flights last only a few minutes so you make the most of the whole flight. I soloed in under 4 hours with 32 landings to my credit, so as you'll see, landing can be taught within a very short time. I'm not saying this to blow my own trumpet as many glider pilots go solo very quickly (especially the young ones, I was 18 at the time). My point is ... surely there is more to it than just teaching in a set pattern or by excersises in a defined order? I realise training needs to be structured, but if "X" must always be taught before "Y", what happens when the weather prevents this? Surely on days when upper airwork is not possible, circuit and landing training can be achieved? or do you just cancel and say "sorry mate ... until you've done X I can't possibly start to teach you Y"? With our weather you'd take for ever to learn if a rigid 1,2,3 approach is used.
I do wonder if some instructors find it easier or in their own minds safer to hold back on the first solo until they have virtually taught the fledgling pilot everything. I recently had a student tell me that she couldn't go solo before 25 hours as that was the law? ... since when? I think her instructor was being a wee bit economical with the truth there!
SS
Randomtox
I have just returned to flying after an eighteen year gap. Today I gave it a go again and, even though I was a bit rusty, I could remember a little more than expected, found the airfield, flew back to it, set up on final, flew down final until a few feet from the ground when my brain started shouting "THERE'S A BIG GREEN THING RUSHING UP TO HIT US AT 60 MPH; RUN AWAY" - and I did.
I'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it, as I hope I will, I know I could do it eighteen years ago, so I must be able to do it again, it's just that this is obviously a tricky skill both to learn and retain without practice.
BoomerangBen
I always thought of eggbeaters as something you used to get from A to B, particularly if one or the other didn't have an airfield, and planks as real flying but I have to say that I'm beginning to agree with you and it is much more civilised to stop before you land rather than land before you stop.
I have just returned to flying after an eighteen year gap. Today I gave it a go again and, even though I was a bit rusty, I could remember a little more than expected, found the airfield, flew back to it, set up on final, flew down final until a few feet from the ground when my brain started shouting "THERE'S A BIG GREEN THING RUSHING UP TO HIT US AT 60 MPH; RUN AWAY" - and I did.
I'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it, as I hope I will, I know I could do it eighteen years ago, so I must be able to do it again, it's just that this is obviously a tricky skill both to learn and retain without practice.
BoomerangBen
I always thought of eggbeaters as something you used to get from A to B, particularly if one or the other didn't have an airfield, and planks as real flying but I have to say that I'm beginning to agree with you and it is much more civilised to stop before you land rather than land before you stop.
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I'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it, as I hope I will, I know I could do it eighteen years ago, so I must be able to do it again, it's just that this is obviously a tricky skill both to learn and retain without practice.
Gertrude
Thanks for the words of support, I soloed today for the first time in many years (it felt like the first solo all over again); so I must have managed to learn or re-learn some of the skills involved.
Cheers
JAFO
Thanks for the words of support, I soloed today for the first time in many years (it felt like the first solo all over again); so I must have managed to learn or re-learn some of the skills involved.
Cheers
JAFO
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Congratulations on the Solo
Is there a better feeling of achievement?
If you have an instructor who "stirs the pudding" on short final he has a disease that seems to be passed down a line of those pilots who have an inbuilt fear of ground proximity. You should then opt for another instructor as there would appear to be no known cure if you are contagious.
Is there a better feeling of achievement?
If you have an instructor who "stirs the pudding" on short final he has a disease that seems to be passed down a line of those pilots who have an inbuilt fear of ground proximity. You should then opt for another instructor as there would appear to be no known cure if you are contagious.
