What an idiot!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: South Yorkshire
What an idiot!
Thanks to Flying lawyer I've been reading the latest GASIL
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_GASIL1OF2004.PDF
The account of the pilot who decided it was safe to fly onto his destination having accidentally refuelled his Diesel-engined Diamond DA40 with Avgas staggered me to disbelief!
How does any pilot not understand the risk that this posed to both themselves and the aircraft?
I presume that fact the they arrived at their destination meant that the refuelling was done with relatively full tanks of Jet A1.
What do other people think?
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_GASIL1OF2004.PDF
The account of the pilot who decided it was safe to fly onto his destination having accidentally refuelled his Diesel-engined Diamond DA40 with Avgas staggered me to disbelief!
How does any pilot not understand the risk that this posed to both themselves and the aircraft?
I presume that fact the they arrived at their destination meant that the refuelling was done with relatively full tanks of Jet A1.
What do other people think?
Last edited by tacpot; 16th April 2004 at 12:22.
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From: The Heart
I have no idea what the book for the DA40 says about AVGAS.
You wouldn't think of running a turbine on AVGAS would you?
Well you can for a limited number of hours per overhaul cycle (PT-6).
May not be so cut and dry after all.
You wouldn't think of running a turbine on AVGAS would you?
Well you can for a limited number of hours per overhaul cycle (PT-6).
May not be so cut and dry after all.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
Funnily enough, turbine engines are pretty robust when it comes to fuel selection. Of course, if you want the engine to last a while and to develop the power then you should run it on the correct AVTUR mix. Piston engines however are pretty fickle. They will usually only run on gasoline type blends. Look what happens if a bit of water gets into the mix. Petrol in a diesel engine isn't wise. Different compression ratios and the rest. It would probably run quite hot and quite rough (ignition happening at the wrong time).
All in all, bad.
All in all, bad.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
I remember reading a list of what you can pour into the tanks of a Viper engined HS125/Dominie if you really, really need to get away (I think it was written for presidents of small African countries needing to make a quick getaway) and the list was awesome. Virtually anything that is liquid and burns.
ISTR that you could use Avgas for ?two hours? but any time after that needed a complete stripdown and overhaul.
I would not expect the same to be true of a Diesel engine, mind you.
ISTR that you could use Avgas for ?two hours? but any time after that needed a complete stripdown and overhaul.
I would not expect the same to be true of a Diesel engine, mind you.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I too found it astonishing to read about the DA40. How can somebody buy a DA40TDI, approx £180k+VAT and easily £200k+VAT with a half-decent IFR fit according to the Diamond stand at the Earls Court show today, and not know it doesn't take avgas?
On the other hand, look at how many people there are in GA who will tell you something absolutely categorically, and it's pure b******t. Some of these, as I know only too well to my cost, are instructors, and not always in ignorance.
Obviously this is speculating, but this man could have been a relatively new PPL and someone who sounded like they knew everything about aviation (ever met the type??) told him it's OK. Perhaps the someone thought the engine was a turbine? How many PPL instructors know what a DA40 is?
Lots of possible explanations.
I was once told by a very qualified ME/IR instructor that I could buy a 1/9 share in a Private CofA plane and do an IMC Rating in it. I would have been a right idiot to join that group (of which he was a member). Anything goes in this business, unfortunately.
On the other hand, look at how many people there are in GA who will tell you something absolutely categorically, and it's pure b******t. Some of these, as I know only too well to my cost, are instructors, and not always in ignorance.
Obviously this is speculating, but this man could have been a relatively new PPL and someone who sounded like they knew everything about aviation (ever met the type??) told him it's OK. Perhaps the someone thought the engine was a turbine? How many PPL instructors know what a DA40 is?
Lots of possible explanations.
I was once told by a very qualified ME/IR instructor that I could buy a 1/9 share in a Private CofA plane and do an IMC Rating in it. I would have been a right idiot to join that group (of which he was a member). Anything goes in this business, unfortunately.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: North West UK
IMC in Private Cat
IO540, what's the problem with doing an IMC in a private cat aircraft. AFAIK it can be done as long as the instructor isn't paid for his/her time and is carrying out the training in a club environment?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Diesel engines require a very different fuel from spark ignition engines!
Petrol / gasoline fuel requires a high resistance to knock, hence the 100/130 performance number (or octane rating).
A diesel, on the other hand, requires a high cetane number, which is the ability to ignite and burn rapidly by heat of compression alone. The two requirements are opposite extremes and are incompatible. Road vehicle Diesel fuel (DERV) therefore has an octane equivalent of about 20! I haven't seen a figure for AVTUR but it is presumably very similar.
Putting diesel fuel in a petrol engine will cause severe detonation / knocking and a major loss of power. This may lead to rapid piston failure.
Putting AVGAS in a diesel engine may result in delayed combustion, such that the mixture is still burning when the exhaust valves open. This causes them to rapidly overheat, as well as a loss of power. Bye bye exhaust valves.
Also, a diesel engine relies on a high pressure fuel pump, operating at 3,000 psi or more. It needs lubricity in the fuel, diesel fuel has this property. AVGAS doesn't. Bye bye fuel pump.
This pilot should think himself lucky he's not being prosecuted for endangering the aircraft.
Petrol / gasoline fuel requires a high resistance to knock, hence the 100/130 performance number (or octane rating).
A diesel, on the other hand, requires a high cetane number, which is the ability to ignite and burn rapidly by heat of compression alone. The two requirements are opposite extremes and are incompatible. Road vehicle Diesel fuel (DERV) therefore has an octane equivalent of about 20! I haven't seen a figure for AVTUR but it is presumably very similar.
Putting diesel fuel in a petrol engine will cause severe detonation / knocking and a major loss of power. This may lead to rapid piston failure.
Putting AVGAS in a diesel engine may result in delayed combustion, such that the mixture is still burning when the exhaust valves open. This causes them to rapidly overheat, as well as a loss of power. Bye bye exhaust valves.
Also, a diesel engine relies on a high pressure fuel pump, operating at 3,000 psi or more. It needs lubricity in the fuel, diesel fuel has this property. AVGAS doesn't. Bye bye fuel pump.
This pilot should think himself lucky he's not being prosecuted for endangering the aircraft.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Squadgy
To use a Private CofA aircraft for the initial award (to yourself) of a License or a Rating, you have to own it outright (100% share).
The bit about not paying the instructor anything I've read about but personally I wouldn't do it. Some people suggest a way around it is to charge say £3000 for the ground school. Do you know of people who have done this openly? Even if the instructor isn't paid, the examiner's (who for the IMCR can be the same person) name will appear on the app form which goes to the CAA, and in your logbook.
He would have to be a trusted friend, I think.
To use a Private CofA aircraft for the initial award (to yourself) of a License or a Rating, you have to own it outright (100% share).
The bit about not paying the instructor anything I've read about but personally I wouldn't do it. Some people suggest a way around it is to charge say £3000 for the ground school. Do you know of people who have done this openly? Even if the instructor isn't paid, the examiner's (who for the IMCR can be the same person) name will appear on the app form which goes to the CAA, and in your logbook.
He would have to be a trusted friend, I think.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
tmmorris,
Yes, I think many more folk will be flying on rapeseed, sunflower oil or other bio-diesels one day!
Amazingly, many modern diesel engines don't need too much in the way of modifications to allow them to do it. Problem for aircraft is effect of low temperature on the fuel. Difficult to use two big slabs of margarine in the wingtanks!
Yes, I think many more folk will be flying on rapeseed, sunflower oil or other bio-diesels one day!
Amazingly, many modern diesel engines don't need too much in the way of modifications to allow them to do it. Problem for aircraft is effect of low temperature on the fuel. Difficult to use two big slabs of margarine in the wingtanks!
