Accident Prevention
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From: London
Accident Prevention
GASIL 2004/01 is now available online.
Click here
It's a 'pdf' file so you'll need Adobe Acrobat installed - it's widely available free on the net.
Tudor Owen
Click here
It's a 'pdf' file so you'll need Adobe Acrobat installed - it's widely available free on the net.
Tudor Owen
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 98
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From: The South
GASIL 2004/01 is now available online
Flying Lawyer,
Would you be able to comment on the section at the top of page 17 where it states that a PPL without an instrument rating may not fly out of sight of the surface, outside the UK? It makes sense up to the last paragraph which seems wrong.
I can see nothing in the ANO that prevents an IMC rating holder flying out of sight of the surface anywhere (though clearly the laws of other countries may prohibit this, not in France though).
As far as I can tell (no legal experience here) the prohibition of flight out of sight of the surface (and perhaps more importantly the 10km vis for SVFR requirement) in Schedule 8 part A is waived unconditionally if the pilot has an IMC rating.
The part about the IMC rating in Part B of Schedule 8 lists a number of things that the IMC rating does in the UK but doesn't say that it has no effect outside. (Curiously, it says different things for JAR licences than for UK licences here too, even though Part A has the same text for both).
I'd be grateful whether you can shed any light on this!
Mark
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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From: Hants
Mark147
I think (as a non-IMC rated PPL'er) the answer is really simple: the IMC is a UK only rating. If you hold the IMC, you cannot use it to fly IFR outside the UK, you're limited to VFR. The UK rules for flying apply to you whereever you fly, and thus you need to keep in sight of the surface (e.g. in France).
RR
I think (as a non-IMC rated PPL'er) the answer is really simple: the IMC is a UK only rating. If you hold the IMC, you cannot use it to fly IFR outside the UK, you're limited to VFR. The UK rules for flying apply to you whereever you fly, and thus you need to keep in sight of the surface (e.g. in France).
RR
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 98
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From: The South
If you hold the IMC, you cannot use it to fly IFR outside the UK, you're limited to VFR.
The issue I was raising was not IFR flight abroad, which I think is quite clear cut. Where it gets tricky is that French PPLs can fly out of sight of the surface under VFR whereas UK PPLs cannot, even in France, because they are bound by the rules layed down in the UK ANO. However, if the UK PPL has an IMC rating, that prohibition in the UK ANO appears not to apply. The same goes for the 10km vis requirement for SVFR flight.
GASIL seems to suggest that UK law forbids a PPL+IMC flying out of sight of the surface when abroad. I don't think it does but I could do with a lawyer's opinion!
Mark
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
This has been discussed here and elsewhere, and GASIL is as wrong as is possible to establish.
The IMC Rating is valid UK only, but when you do it you also obtain an exemption from the CAA PPL requirement to be in sight of the surface.
The ICAO PPL has no such requirement, so when you do the IMC Rating, you can fly out of sight of the surface worldwide. The removal of the requirement does not have territorial restrictions.
Another country might restrict a PPL to be in sight of the surface, in which case you have to obey that. But France doesn't.
I have it in writing from the CAA, too, and there isn't a whole lot more than one can do than that!
The IMC Rating is valid UK only, but when you do it you also obtain an exemption from the CAA PPL requirement to be in sight of the surface.
The ICAO PPL has no such requirement, so when you do the IMC Rating, you can fly out of sight of the surface worldwide. The removal of the requirement does not have territorial restrictions.
Another country might restrict a PPL to be in sight of the surface, in which case you have to obey that. But France doesn't.
I have it in writing from the CAA, too, and there isn't a whole lot more than one can do than that!
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 26
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From: Manchester
FL,
A very interesting and informative document, particularly for PPL students like myself.
Also interesting to note that this doc has not been publicised or distributed by my flying school....
One very interesting trend was the continuing reduction of fatalities in GA - from 40 in 1999 to 7 in 2003. I would be interested to hear views as to whether this indicates a general improvement in pilot competence, a decrease in GA traffic, benefits of new technology or stricter regulations (or, more likely, all of the above). I read conflicting views re: the unwelcome restrictions placed on GA but do the figures speak for themselves?
From a personal point of view it would be nice to hear that I am being better looked after from all aspects - instruction, regulations, government, technology, ATC etc.
Has GA gotten safer, is there less traffic or is it just not fun anymore?
BRL,
What does BTTT mean?
(sick of FLA's)
A very interesting and informative document, particularly for PPL students like myself.
Also interesting to note that this doc has not been publicised or distributed by my flying school....
One very interesting trend was the continuing reduction of fatalities in GA - from 40 in 1999 to 7 in 2003. I would be interested to hear views as to whether this indicates a general improvement in pilot competence, a decrease in GA traffic, benefits of new technology or stricter regulations (or, more likely, all of the above). I read conflicting views re: the unwelcome restrictions placed on GA but do the figures speak for themselves?
From a personal point of view it would be nice to hear that I am being better looked after from all aspects - instruction, regulations, government, technology, ATC etc.
Has GA gotten safer, is there less traffic or is it just not fun anymore?
BRL,
What does BTTT mean?
(sick of FLA's)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
mark147
I saw something recently about the ANO being supposedly amended recently. So I got the current copy from
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap393.pdf
which is April 2003, with some Dec 2003 amendments.
Firstly, it is clear the PRIVILEGES of the IMCR itself are limited to the UK - that is clear from schedule 8 page 18. The question is whether this is relevant to flying VMC on top because the bit about having to be in sight of surface is elsewhere and isn't limited to the UK.
In schedule 8 page 2 it says (under PPL privileges)
>He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
>instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
>of such an aeroplane:
>(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than
>3 km;
>(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10
>km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the
>purpose of this subparagraph; or
>(iii) out of sight of the surface.
which contains no UK-only restriction. Same on page 3 and page 11.
Page 18 specifies some privileges of the IMCR and that is limited to the UK but that part doesn't limit you to being in sight of the surface; it merely removes some requirements e.g. not flying in conditions requiring IFR.
The latest PDF of the ANO is nicely text-searchable.
So I don't think anything has changed. Also the CAA letter I have is dated 1 month after page 18 of Sched 8 was last amended.
But the ANO is a weirdly worded document, and I may not be reading it right...
I saw something recently about the ANO being supposedly amended recently. So I got the current copy from
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap393.pdf
which is April 2003, with some Dec 2003 amendments.
Firstly, it is clear the PRIVILEGES of the IMCR itself are limited to the UK - that is clear from schedule 8 page 18. The question is whether this is relevant to flying VMC on top because the bit about having to be in sight of surface is elsewhere and isn't limited to the UK.
In schedule 8 page 2 it says (under PPL privileges)
>He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an
>instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command
>of such an aeroplane:
>(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than
>3 km;
>(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10
>km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the
>purpose of this subparagraph; or
>(iii) out of sight of the surface.
which contains no UK-only restriction. Same on page 3 and page 11.
Page 18 specifies some privileges of the IMCR and that is limited to the UK but that part doesn't limit you to being in sight of the surface; it merely removes some requirements e.g. not flying in conditions requiring IFR.
The latest PDF of the ANO is nicely text-searchable.
So I don't think anything has changed. Also the CAA letter I have is dated 1 month after page 18 of Sched 8 was last amended.
But the ANO is a weirdly worded document, and I may not be reading it right...
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,417
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From: London, UK
Again, IO540 is correct. The restriction to the UK of the positive privileges of the IMC rating has led to the generation of a myth that the waiver of the requirement to stay in sight of the surface which is conferred by the rating is UK-specific.
Of course, if flying overseas, you must comply not only with your licence restrictions, but also with local rules.
Of course, if flying overseas, you must comply not only with your licence restrictions, but also with local rules.
