Temporary Restriction of flying: NE Norfolk coast
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Gents, the Secondary Radar comes from a SECONDARY Surveillance radar source - this is the interrogator aerial that communicates directly with that natty little box in the comm stack of a large number of aircraft. The imposition of this restriction will not have been taken lightly and a change in legislation (ANO) was most probably required. The people who gain are the commercial helicopter operators who, otherwise, would not have received any form of effective radar service from Anglia. You must remember that there are a significant number of "players" in this piece of sky (including UK & US Mil). A safety case would have been presented indicating that the provision of an SSR only radar service in this piece of un-regulated Class G airspace would not meet the necessary safety standards. Consequently, a restriction was imposed (mandatory utilisation of SSR) such that the radar controllers could guarantee that they could see all aircraft within the affected piece of airspace. There are no hidden agendas regarding this activity.
If you really want a full explanation, call the sponsor of the AIC (0207453 6540/6544) and, trust me, he will give you a comprehensive response.
If you really want a full explanation, call the sponsor of the AIC (0207453 6540/6544) and, trust me, he will give you a comprehensive response.
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 8th May 2004 at 20:28.
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Sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind .....
Can we get the CAA to mandate the use of SSR in other areas of poor cover in large parts of the UK ? After all, it must be unsafe
Can we get the CAA to mandate the use of SSR in other areas of poor cover in large parts of the UK ? After all, it must be unsafe
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"All Working Hard has to do is comply with the AIC and ask before flying over that bit of the North Sea that is very rarely used by any G/A aircraft, it's not all that difficult, just be prepared not to get the excellent radar service that normally prevails in that area."
Of course we shall comply - we have no option. That is not the issue. As has just been said "Sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind .....
Can we get the CAA to mandate the use of SSR in other areas of poor cover in large parts of the UK ? After all, it must be unsafe "
If it is so unsafe for the operation of helicopters or mil or whoever because Anglia is down then seperate the helos and mil, after all very few GA will be in this area at all so I say again "what's the agenda?
There are many areas (including Norwich approaches) which frequently have no radar cover at all - at least no radar is said to be available so what is the problem? I am sure few will believe it is as simple as being portrayed.
Of course we shall comply - we have no option. That is not the issue. As has just been said "Sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind .....
Can we get the CAA to mandate the use of SSR in other areas of poor cover in large parts of the UK ? After all, it must be unsafe "
If it is so unsafe for the operation of helicopters or mil or whoever because Anglia is down then seperate the helos and mil, after all very few GA will be in this area at all so I say again "what's the agenda?
There are many areas (including Norwich approaches) which frequently have no radar cover at all - at least no radar is said to be available so what is the problem? I am sure few will believe it is as simple as being portrayed.
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Niknak - I was always under the impression that primary radar was simply primary radar, and that modes A & C were the two parts of SSR? Mode A = 4 digit code, Mode C = level information, no?
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WBS said
"Consequently, a restriction was imposed (mandatory utilisation of SSR) such that the radar controllers could guarantee that they could see all aircraft within the affected piece of airspace."
Unfortunately WBS the AIC cannot mandate the use of SSR by the Mil so you would still not be aware of ALL a/c in that airspace. Are you SURE there are no hidden agendas regarding this activity when you consider this?
"Consequently, a restriction was imposed (mandatory utilisation of SSR) such that the radar controllers could guarantee that they could see all aircraft within the affected piece of airspace."
Unfortunately WBS the AIC cannot mandate the use of SSR by the Mil so you would still not be aware of ALL a/c in that airspace. Are you SURE there are no hidden agendas regarding this activity when you consider this?
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The MoD have signed up to this. Under the Transport Act 2000, the Secretary of State cedes power to the CAA to ensure the safe provision of air navigation services; the MoD have agreed to broadly comply with the Act unless it is a matter of direct national security.
(see this link: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/DirectionstoCAA.pdf )
Consequently, CAA (DAP) is a joint and integrated civil/military organisation which formulates and implements common policy regarding the utilisation of airspace.
Call the number - I guarantee you will get an honest answer. (Don't call tommorrow because the individuals you need to speak to will be out of the office).
(see this link: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/DirectionstoCAA.pdf )
Consequently, CAA (DAP) is a joint and integrated civil/military organisation which formulates and implements common policy regarding the utilisation of airspace.
Call the number - I guarantee you will get an honest answer. (Don't call tommorrow because the individuals you need to speak to will be out of the office).
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 9th May 2004 at 09:43.
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Sledgehammers and nuts?
I don't think so.
In this particular instance, the airspace is predominantly used by either the miliatry or north sea rig support traffic, very little G/A activity takes place. consequently, each day, each operator will make sure that their requirements are pre noted, and hopefully everyone will know about each other in an area of airspace which at the best of times is known for poor radar coverage at low levels.
The reason that we, and the majority of radar service providers are not allowed to give a service using SSR only is because of the risk of someone coming the other way not using their transponder, (very, very common!) or not having one at all, and the aircraft not painting as a primary radar return.
If anyone would like to come and visit my unit too see what I mean, I would be delighted to accomodate you.
PM me.
I don't think so.
In this particular instance, the airspace is predominantly used by either the miliatry or north sea rig support traffic, very little G/A activity takes place. consequently, each day, each operator will make sure that their requirements are pre noted, and hopefully everyone will know about each other in an area of airspace which at the best of times is known for poor radar coverage at low levels.
The reason that we, and the majority of radar service providers are not allowed to give a service using SSR only is because of the risk of someone coming the other way not using their transponder, (very, very common!) or not having one at all, and the aircraft not painting as a primary radar return.
If anyone would like to come and visit my unit too see what I mean, I would be delighted to accomodate you.
PM me.
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WBS and Niknak- I am unlikely to come into that particular airspace in the near future so this is only of academic interest at this time. I, and I am sure others, am most grateful for the detail you provide. I do however have to disagree with WBS in that the document for which you have kindly provided a link does not in my view stae what you suggest. It does however refer to the REQUIREMENT for the CAA to provision LARS which it seems unable so to do for fairly large tracts of the UK. To come back to the original topic - it just does not sit well with the views expressed and we shall have to wait and see. Incidentally were either of you involved in the decision making process and is this why you seem so certain as to the reasons?
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WH - We could argue about black being white until the end of time but I suspect this will get us nowhere. However, you mis-quote the document at the link. To be precise:
My final suggestion, call the number and you will get chapter and verse.
In particular the CAA shall:
(d) determine and procure the provision of a Lower Airspace Radar Service in UK airspace;
(d) determine and procure the provision of a Lower Airspace Radar Service in UK airspace;
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Interesting ..... must phone the CAA chappies to ask for a similar restriction for the lower portions of the Scottish TMA ... airspace which is a damn sight busier and filled with much more heavy metal and people in aircraft than the Southern North Sea. Yet in which aircraft can freely travel without talking to an 'notified ATC unit' or having a transponder. We are also allowed to operate in that airspace with SSR only on occasions.
Be interesting to see how they wriggle out of mandating it
Be interesting to see how they wriggle out of mandating it
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I would imagine that the request for the TRA would have come from Colt/Anglia radar. I very much doubt it came from some faceless bureaucrat with a hidden agenda.
It makes perfect sense to me - trying to separate fast jet traffic recovering to Coltishal and slow moving helicopter traffic must be hard at the best of times. The near miss earlier this year between a helicopter and tornado would have made a clearer case for a TRA. It was in good VFR and it was close, very close. The discussion on whether fast jet pilots can really maintain a good lookout was discussed on the Rotorhead forum. But it seems that to give them an extra pair of eyes on a radar panel is a good idea. If that radar is operating below par, then safe guards need to be put in place.
It makes perfect sense to me - trying to separate fast jet traffic recovering to Coltishal and slow moving helicopter traffic must be hard at the best of times. The near miss earlier this year between a helicopter and tornado would have made a clearer case for a TRA. It was in good VFR and it was close, very close. The discussion on whether fast jet pilots can really maintain a good lookout was discussed on the Rotorhead forum. But it seems that to give them an extra pair of eyes on a radar panel is a good idea. If that radar is operating below par, then safe guards need to be put in place.
Why weekends
I thought the amount of fast jet traffic was minimal at weekends.
Why is it not just Mon - Fri if the reason is military jets??? Either jets are not the reason or the 'blanket' restriction should be changed.
Why is it not just Mon - Fri if the reason is military jets??? Either jets are not the reason or the 'blanket' restriction should be changed.
I would guess that the absence of this radar head means such reduced UK ADR coverage that 'they' are afraid of traffic sneaking in from the continent smuggling heavens knows what. So they ban it - by restricting the otherwise lawful movements of VFR traffic in Class G airspace.
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BRL - In view of the huge importance of the principle here is it appropriate to make it a "sticky" thread as Marigold has asked? It would seem to be the case but I don't know the rules.
Beagle - I have read with great interest your many and varied comments for a long time and you clearly have a knowledge of aviation matters exceeding that of many of us. Do you think there is more to this than face value. If so give us a best guess if not give us a view of what prompted it.
Beagle - I have read with great interest your many and varied comments for a long time and you clearly have a knowledge of aviation matters exceeding that of many of us. Do you think there is more to this than face value. If so give us a best guess if not give us a view of what prompted it.
LL radar coverage of this part of the world has never been brilliant, in my opinion, particular whenever Neatisblunt was involved.
I once arranged for the Red Arrows to 'attack' Wattisham on their way back from a continental air display when I was planning an air defence exercise in the early 1980s. Despite providing them with the route and timings, the first the wonderful UK Air Defence Radar system knew of the air raid was when it was under way in the aerodrome overhead. They hadn't seen a thing, nor had they been able to position the F4s I'd tasked in the right place at the right time even knowing when 10 bright red Hawks were due to cross the FIR boundary!
I'm guessing that they're worried about the possibility of terrorists sneaking across at low level to launch attacks against places like, well, Sandringham for example?
I once arranged for the Red Arrows to 'attack' Wattisham on their way back from a continental air display when I was planning an air defence exercise in the early 1980s. Despite providing them with the route and timings, the first the wonderful UK Air Defence Radar system knew of the air raid was when it was under way in the aerodrome overhead. They hadn't seen a thing, nor had they been able to position the F4s I'd tasked in the right place at the right time even knowing when 10 bright red Hawks were due to cross the FIR boundary!
I'm guessing that they're worried about the possibility of terrorists sneaking across at low level to launch attacks against places like, well, Sandringham for example?
Aren`t there any "mobile" radar units left ? Why not send a Navy picket to sail up and down the coast all week ? Ahhhhh, stupid Boy, we don`t have any of those either !!!!!!!!!!!1