Circuit Etiquette
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Circuit Etiquette
What would you have done in these circumstances?
Returning to base one day, I informed by ATC as I joined deadside that I was number 2. (ATC is 'Information')
I looked ahead, left and right and towards Base-leg and could not see Number 1.
Turned downwind, and still could not see number 1. Called ATC who confirmed I was number 2. There was no communication between ATC and Number 1.
Fairly late downwind (according to my location), I spotted what might have been Number 1 treating the South East of England as the base leg, and seemingly taking it very slow. In fact, Number 1 was so far out, it could have been a passing aircraft.
Following him (or her) would have extended the circuit still further. I needed to decide whether to turn base and become No.1 or follow them and maintain a ludricous circuit or whether to find another option.
We were the only ones in the circuit at the time.
What would you have done?
Returning to base one day, I informed by ATC as I joined deadside that I was number 2. (ATC is 'Information')
I looked ahead, left and right and towards Base-leg and could not see Number 1.
Turned downwind, and still could not see number 1. Called ATC who confirmed I was number 2. There was no communication between ATC and Number 1.
Fairly late downwind (according to my location), I spotted what might have been Number 1 treating the South East of England as the base leg, and seemingly taking it very slow. In fact, Number 1 was so far out, it could have been a passing aircraft.
Following him (or her) would have extended the circuit still further. I needed to decide whether to turn base and become No.1 or follow them and maintain a ludricous circuit or whether to find another option.
We were the only ones in the circuit at the time.
What would you have done?
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If there was enough seperation to allow me to slot in the number 1 position and land without causing the other pilot any delay then that is what I would do informing the ATC (Info) of my intensions however if I thought that by doing this I would delay the other pilot or at worst cause him to go around I would fit into the number 2 position behind him/her regardless. This sort of thing has happened to me a couple of times and is very annoying but is usually a genuine error of judgement by pilots that are unfirmiliar with the airfield.
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I think you have answered this question yourself.
If you are not sure of the location of circuit traffic, then always assume the worst. Carry on downwind until either your contact turns base whilst you grumble under your breath about ocean liner circuits or until number 1 makes a position report to identify their position and make your decision accordingly.
A few extra minutes in the circuit won't kill you....
Just my opinion..
I spotted what might have been Number 1 treating the South East of England as the base leg
A few extra minutes in the circuit won't kill you....
Just my opinion..
OK, so the one in front has gone on a tour of the borders of Hants/Surrey (if I've guessed the airfield correctly 
)
You say you were still downwind, so by the time you've turned base & then finals, chances are he'd be about a mile behind you - which might work, or you might cause him to go around.
I'd say unless you're flying something much much faster (in which case make your intentions to become No 1 very clear on the r/t), slow down (consider configuring early) and follow.
)You say you were still downwind, so by the time you've turned base & then finals, chances are he'd be about a mile behind you - which might work, or you might cause him to go around.
I'd say unless you're flying something much much faster (in which case make your intentions to become No 1 very clear on the r/t), slow down (consider configuring early) and follow.
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I'm not too familiar with square circuits because I fly oval ones. In the case of an oval circuit I would definiately call "Going Around" and trundle back around at circuit heigh using the correct circuit pattern.
In a square circuit I would think the same is appropriate, bearing in mind how far out he is of course. By calling "going around" you don't cut in front of him in the circuit and you position for the deadside so you are clear of him. (Though is similar type he shouldn't catch up anyway) As such you are still number 2 but you happen to be closer to the airfield.
In a square circuit I would think the same is appropriate, bearing in mind how far out he is of course. By calling "going around" you don't cut in front of him in the circuit and you position for the deadside so you are clear of him. (Though is similar type he shouldn't catch up anyway) As such you are still number 2 but you happen to be closer to the airfield.
If I was unsure as to where No1 was id do a very quick r/t to the FISO and ask for the position of the aircraft ahead.
If he advises late downwind / on base / turning final etc at least you would know where to look and establish if the traffic you had visual with was him or not.
Always use caution as you have quite rightly demonstrated, but it may save you extending downwind for an aircraft that was actually just transiting pass the zone, rather than flying a not very accurate circuit.
Definately wouldnt turn base though until I was sure that he was already on final and in between me and the numbers.
regards.
If he advises late downwind / on base / turning final etc at least you would know where to look and establish if the traffic you had visual with was him or not.
Always use caution as you have quite rightly demonstrated, but it may save you extending downwind for an aircraft that was actually just transiting pass the zone, rather than flying a not very accurate circuit.
Definately wouldnt turn base though until I was sure that he was already on final and in between me and the numbers.
regards.
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Whilst it is tempting to slot in ahead if safe to do so and the other aircraft is not on final, it may turn final from far out whilst you are flying a tight base leg, so, it maybe worth bearing in mind the following legal considerations.
Rule 17(5) on collision avoidance requires you (absent contrary instructions from ATC) to "conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome, or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed". This suggests that the circuit (or pattern) is made by the aircraft flying in it at any given time (whatever the standard pattern or local circuit diagram may indicate), and so you must follow the aircraft ahead. Note also, however, rule 17(6), which states that "An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water. It goes on to say that "in the case of two or more flying machines, gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right-of-way, but it shall not cut in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land or overtake that aircraft." ATC can give instructions for landing priority.
This suggests that you may overtake in the circuit (but never on final). ATC instructions obviously do not apply in your scenario as the airfield only has FIS, and the numbering passed by the FISO is for information only.
Probably best to stay behind, even if this requires a go-around, or orbiting (if safe to do so: I'm personally not very keen on orbiting within circuits unless told to do so by full ATC). Or, as suggested above, slow down (lower flaps etc). A few more notches on the hobbs meter don't matter terribly, after all.
PS: also probably better, if uncertain of the other aircraft's intentions, to stay where you can see it, at least until it has landed or gone away.
Rule 17(5) on collision avoidance requires you (absent contrary instructions from ATC) to "conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome, or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed". This suggests that the circuit (or pattern) is made by the aircraft flying in it at any given time (whatever the standard pattern or local circuit diagram may indicate), and so you must follow the aircraft ahead. Note also, however, rule 17(6), which states that "An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water. It goes on to say that "in the case of two or more flying machines, gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right-of-way, but it shall not cut in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land or overtake that aircraft." ATC can give instructions for landing priority.
This suggests that you may overtake in the circuit (but never on final). ATC instructions obviously do not apply in your scenario as the airfield only has FIS, and the numbering passed by the FISO is for information only.
Probably best to stay behind, even if this requires a go-around, or orbiting (if safe to do so: I'm personally not very keen on orbiting within circuits unless told to do so by full ATC). Or, as suggested above, slow down (lower flaps etc). A few more notches on the hobbs meter don't matter terribly, after all.
PS: also probably better, if uncertain of the other aircraft's intentions, to stay where you can see it, at least until it has landed or gone away.
Last edited by FNG; 30th Mar 2004 at 07:51.
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maintain a ludricous circuit
If pilots will continue to conduct circuits outside the zone (dare I suggest ATZ) with an "Information" service, they have a Rule 19 (?) obligation to report departing and subsequently rejoining the ATZ.
They are therefore not in the circuit.
I will check up which Rule of the ANO refers, unless anyone else can chip in.
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Dubtrub, you perhaps have in mind rule 39(3)
(3) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome to which this paragraph applies shall:
(a) cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome or, if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means;
(b) where the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the aerodrome flight information unit or the air/ground radio station at the aerodrome (as the case may be), on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it.
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The rule applies to Gov aerodromes, aerodromes with ATC and FIS during hours of watch and licensed a/g fields during hours of watch.
Trouble is, if someone is flying a circuit via the outer planets, they will be unlikely to consider that this rule applies to them, assuming (doubtfully) that they have ever heard of it.
(3) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome to which this paragraph applies shall:
(a) cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome or, if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means;
(b) where the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the aerodrome flight information unit or the air/ground radio station at the aerodrome (as the case may be), on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it.
------
The rule applies to Gov aerodromes, aerodromes with ATC and FIS during hours of watch and licensed a/g fields during hours of watch.
Trouble is, if someone is flying a circuit via the outer planets, they will be unlikely to consider that this rule applies to them, assuming (doubtfully) that they have ever heard of it.
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jayemm
The correct answer is to follow #1. Even if you are paying £120/hr self fly hire rate.
The alternative is to cut him up and land in front of him. This is fine if you know what you are doing, but nearly all of the people who have cut me up in similar circumstances didn't know what they were doing, forcing me to do a G/A. Sometimes several times in a row.
You are more likely to see a faster plane doing bigger circuits. This may be irritating to someone flying a slow plane who is used to the airfield and flies tight circuits, but the faster plane will also finish the downwind and the base and be on final that much quicker (I fly downwind at 110kt, then gear down and trimming to 90kt on base and do the final at 80kt) and he will catch you before you know it - you will never be off the runway in time for him to land.
The only time someone cut me up "right" was a pilot of some aerobatic plane at Duxford whose "circuit" could probably have been flown within the perimeter of the runway
The correct answer is to follow #1. Even if you are paying £120/hr self fly hire rate.
The alternative is to cut him up and land in front of him. This is fine if you know what you are doing, but nearly all of the people who have cut me up in similar circumstances didn't know what they were doing, forcing me to do a G/A. Sometimes several times in a row.
You are more likely to see a faster plane doing bigger circuits. This may be irritating to someone flying a slow plane who is used to the airfield and flies tight circuits, but the faster plane will also finish the downwind and the base and be on final that much quicker (I fly downwind at 110kt, then gear down and trimming to 90kt on base and do the final at 80kt) and he will catch you before you know it - you will never be off the runway in time for him to land.
The only time someone cut me up "right" was a pilot of some aerobatic plane at Duxford whose "circuit" could probably have been flown within the perimeter of the runway
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"Some aerobatic plane at Duxford"...
Wouldn't have been something called a Spitfire, by any chance? Funny looking old aeroplane, silly pointy wings, usually painted sludge green and brown. Makes a horrible racket. Gets lost when the railway points change. No room for golf clubs. Pretty useless really.
I only mention this because the speeds you describe for hot-ship mega-circuits are only a bit slower than those used by early Spitfires. Later ones approach a bit faster (say120 knots in an Mark XIV), but somehow they manage to fly their circuits inside the airfield.
Wouldn't have been something called a Spitfire, by any chance? Funny looking old aeroplane, silly pointy wings, usually painted sludge green and brown. Makes a horrible racket. Gets lost when the railway points change. No room for golf clubs. Pretty useless really.
I only mention this because the speeds you describe for hot-ship mega-circuits are only a bit slower than those used by early Spitfires. Later ones approach a bit faster (say120 knots in an Mark XIV), but somehow they manage to fly their circuits inside the airfield.
Last edited by FNG; 30th Mar 2004 at 06:58.
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FNG,
No, the Spit was there on the day but this was something much smaller. I don't know about aero types but it was a biplane I think.
I think circuit size is according to what one's been trained to do. In the PPL, they teach you to do things by the book, so you fly a "proper" rectangular circuit, at circuit height, and descend from cct height say halfway through the base leg (or not until turning final, at night, in some places). I went from a PPL through self fly hire of various junk to becoming an owner of a complex plane which is normally operated by the numbers, and never had a chance to mess about with tight circuits.
Perhaps if I had done some aerobatics then my outlook would be different, but I believe that currency ON TYPE is the #1 safety factor, and if I did say 30 hours of aeros in some aero type and then tried to do the same in what I now have (which isn't meant to be chucked about like that anyway) I don't think it would have done me much of a service. But it probably illustrates why some people fly much tighter circuits than others.
Also at an unfamiliar airfield, where you know there is traffic but can't see a lot of it, it is better to fly a larger circuit because it gives you more time to look around. If you have to avoid somebody when you are already banking at 30 degrees onto final, 10-15kt above the stall, you don't have many options!
I think having to do a G/A because somebody has cut you up on final is irritating but the resulting straightforward G/A is a lot safer than some other possibilities, e.g. you turning base in a tight left hand circuit and then you spot somebody (head-on) doing the same thing but with a right hand circuit (yes, I've seen it).
No, the Spit was there on the day but this was something much smaller. I don't know about aero types but it was a biplane I think.
I think circuit size is according to what one's been trained to do. In the PPL, they teach you to do things by the book, so you fly a "proper" rectangular circuit, at circuit height, and descend from cct height say halfway through the base leg (or not until turning final, at night, in some places). I went from a PPL through self fly hire of various junk to becoming an owner of a complex plane which is normally operated by the numbers, and never had a chance to mess about with tight circuits.
Perhaps if I had done some aerobatics then my outlook would be different, but I believe that currency ON TYPE is the #1 safety factor, and if I did say 30 hours of aeros in some aero type and then tried to do the same in what I now have (which isn't meant to be chucked about like that anyway) I don't think it would have done me much of a service. But it probably illustrates why some people fly much tighter circuits than others.
Also at an unfamiliar airfield, where you know there is traffic but can't see a lot of it, it is better to fly a larger circuit because it gives you more time to look around. If you have to avoid somebody when you are already banking at 30 degrees onto final, 10-15kt above the stall, you don't have many options!
I think having to do a G/A because somebody has cut you up on final is irritating but the resulting straightforward G/A is a lot safer than some other possibilities, e.g. you turning base in a tight left hand circuit and then you spot somebody (head-on) doing the same thing but with a right hand circuit (yes, I've seen it).
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I'm not quite sure what options you don't have at 30 degrees AOB with 10-15 knots above the stall. I would say that you have a margin to manouevre in such a situation, even in a not very chuckable aircraft type. I agree heartily, however, that having to avoid people on final or elsewhere in the circuit is indeed vexing, but, as you say, the go-around in such a situation should be straightforward enough.
Small aerobatic biplane: probably a Pitts. There's a red one at Duxford that gives lessons. If it was purple one, that would be Stiknruda, larging it somewhat, merry fellow that he is. If you see him again, ask the chaps in the tower to see if those old Bloodhound missiles in the corner are still working.
Small aerobatic biplane: probably a Pitts. There's a red one at Duxford that gives lessons. If it was purple one, that would be Stiknruda, larging it somewhat, merry fellow that he is. If you see him again, ask the chaps in the tower to see if those old Bloodhound missiles in the corner are still working.
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I'm not quite sure what options you don't have at 30 degrees AOB with 10-15 knots above the stall
You are already likely to be relying on it being a descending turn, to keep the stall speed in check.So when going to some free-for-all airfield I would prefer to do a larger circuit and fly a longer final.
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I thought you meant 10-15 knots above the stalling seed for an aircraft at 30 degrees AOB, but take it that you mean 10-15 above the stalling speed for straight and level flight, in which case I agree that your margin is reduced, but, given that in the avoidance situation your concern is not with continuing the approach to landing, you are of course at liberty to lean on the throttle a bit. Certainly not a fun place to find yourself, though, and we agree that it's best to stay behind the other bloke rather than risk him popping up on you unexpectedly.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I'm with Slow-Rider on this one. Go around.
Definitely do not cut up the guy on final. He may not have spotted you yet, it might get nasty.... And it also might not be legal.
Going behind him is an option. If it's a busy circuit, then the next guy will have to go behind you, and the next guy behind him.... and the circuit will just get bigger and bigger. If it's a quiet circuit then it's not so bad, but you're going to be very low down, out of gliding distance of the airfield.... migth be acceptable, depending on the local terrain, or it might not.
There is no downside to going around in this situation, except that it might cost you a bit more cash and a bit more time (unless you are extremely low on fuel, in which case declare a Mayday and you become number one - but that's a different scenario entirely).
FFF
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Definitely do not cut up the guy on final. He may not have spotted you yet, it might get nasty.... And it also might not be legal.
Going behind him is an option. If it's a busy circuit, then the next guy will have to go behind you, and the next guy behind him.... and the circuit will just get bigger and bigger. If it's a quiet circuit then it's not so bad, but you're going to be very low down, out of gliding distance of the airfield.... migth be acceptable, depending on the local terrain, or it might not.
There is no downside to going around in this situation, except that it might cost you a bit more cash and a bit more time (unless you are extremely low on fuel, in which case declare a Mayday and you become number one - but that's a different scenario entirely).
FFF
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FNG - yes, I fly a purple one but I also fly a red one and a white one! And every minute spent in my workshop brings me closer to flying a brand new one - have an idea of the paint scheme but will keep that quiet until I actually buy the paint!
IO540 - can't recall doing any circuits at Duxford, am normally cleared straight in from the east or join downwind if I have been aerobatting there to be critiqued by some of the UK's finest.
If you are concerned, let me know what date this heinous act occurred and I'll check my log-book. If it was me and I am quietly confident that it wasn't, I'll buy the beers.
The problem in the bipe stems from the fact that it is generally a constant rate turn from downwind to short final to allow oneself to see the r'way. If on downwind at 110/120mph it is not uncommon to quickly start overhauling traffic in front, as one generally pulls power abeam the numbers and starts to turn and descend at say 95/100mph, it is VERY tempting to nip in front of traffic who are extending their downwind legs. Tempting because if you have to follow them into the next county, you are going to have to slow down, the more you slow, the higher goes the nose, the higher the nose goes, the less you can see out the front! It is quite an eerie feeling knowing that somewhere in front of you is a C150 but you don't know exactly how far!
Nipping in front and flying a very tight circuit generally causes very few problems, the issue is that unless a "belly-check" (rolling wings level and looking away from the runway) is done when approaching 90 degrees to runway heading you will NOT be able to see any traffic on final. This can be disastrous at worst and does lead to the sort of negativity towards very maneouverable, fast moving biplanes that IO540 has experienced.
Anecdotally - my first ever foray into the PFA Rally in 1997 in my vintage taildragger, I was nicely established on a 1 mile final when a yellow Pitts cut me up beautifully. We both continued downward and onward and he was told to land short, I was asked if I could comply with "land long".
Yes, it was a bit stressful but in reality it was a pretty minor em******ance! A few months later, I met the owner/pilot of that yellow bumble bee and recounted my tale. He swore that he'd not seen me!
I do try and promote "belly-checks" at all possible opportunites if flying a curved approach.
Stik
Stik
IO540 - can't recall doing any circuits at Duxford, am normally cleared straight in from the east or join downwind if I have been aerobatting there to be critiqued by some of the UK's finest.
If you are concerned, let me know what date this heinous act occurred and I'll check my log-book. If it was me and I am quietly confident that it wasn't, I'll buy the beers.
The problem in the bipe stems from the fact that it is generally a constant rate turn from downwind to short final to allow oneself to see the r'way. If on downwind at 110/120mph it is not uncommon to quickly start overhauling traffic in front, as one generally pulls power abeam the numbers and starts to turn and descend at say 95/100mph, it is VERY tempting to nip in front of traffic who are extending their downwind legs. Tempting because if you have to follow them into the next county, you are going to have to slow down, the more you slow, the higher goes the nose, the higher the nose goes, the less you can see out the front! It is quite an eerie feeling knowing that somewhere in front of you is a C150 but you don't know exactly how far!
Nipping in front and flying a very tight circuit generally causes very few problems, the issue is that unless a "belly-check" (rolling wings level and looking away from the runway) is done when approaching 90 degrees to runway heading you will NOT be able to see any traffic on final. This can be disastrous at worst and does lead to the sort of negativity towards very maneouverable, fast moving biplanes that IO540 has experienced.
Anecdotally - my first ever foray into the PFA Rally in 1997 in my vintage taildragger, I was nicely established on a 1 mile final when a yellow Pitts cut me up beautifully. We both continued downward and onward and he was told to land short, I was asked if I could comply with "land long".
Yes, it was a bit stressful but in reality it was a pretty minor em******ance! A few months later, I met the owner/pilot of that yellow bumble bee and recounted my tale. He swore that he'd not seen me!
I do try and promote "belly-checks" at all possible opportunites if flying a curved approach.
Stik
Stik
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Truly, Stik, you are to Pitts Specials what Carrie Bradshaw is to handbags and Manolos. Don'y you go getting a pink one, mind.
I assumed that it couldn't be you, as don't you do all your rejoins inverted?
I assumed that it couldn't be you, as don't you do all your rejoins inverted?
Last edited by FNG; 30th Mar 2004 at 11:27.
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The delight of flying out of an airfield with full ATC is in exactly this situation. Told we're number 3, then as we come abeam the threshold on the downwind "Can you accept a tight circuit?"
"Affirmative".
"Cleared to final number one, turn in now."
Happens quite often, and usually we're down, off the runway, down the taxiway and onto the apron before the next one comes over the fence.
I watched a Twotter do a tight approach a few years ago - I don't think he went outside the airport perimeter, turned final at something like 250 feet and half a mile, landed, and off at the first intersection. Pure poetry in motion. Almost slow motion.
"Affirmative".
"Cleared to final number one, turn in now."
Happens quite often, and usually we're down, off the runway, down the taxiway and onto the apron before the next one comes over the fence.
I watched a Twotter do a tight approach a few years ago - I don't think he went outside the airport perimeter, turned final at something like 250 feet and half a mile, landed, and off at the first intersection. Pure poetry in motion. Almost slow motion.