What would you do about this idiot?
Mess Your Passage
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Tried also to resist posting but BH's attitude just plain sucks.
I feel an up and coming thread will be from a crew member flying with this BH to be " What do i do about this chaps CRM?"
As a few have stated we face enough obsticles in GA from outsiders as it is but then to have our own pulling on a chain to ground us/cost us money time. Why?
I am just a low houred ppl so my experience in BH's eyes will count for little if nothing or will it?
Maybe it's all about differing attitudes or BH has been in it all to long and lost the passion. I still look up even if a PA28 is going over my head ( no matter what height ) envyous that im on the ground.
One thing is for sure there is no place for arrogance and BH in his superior position should not ponder petty low flying breaches in his crusade to kill I mean clean up GA perhaps instead use his wealth of experience in a more productive way.
Fly safe.........
F.
I feel an up and coming thread will be from a crew member flying with this BH to be " What do i do about this chaps CRM?"
As a few have stated we face enough obsticles in GA from outsiders as it is but then to have our own pulling on a chain to ground us/cost us money time. Why?
I am just a low houred ppl so my experience in BH's eyes will count for little if nothing or will it?
Maybe it's all about differing attitudes or BH has been in it all to long and lost the passion. I still look up even if a PA28 is going over my head ( no matter what height ) envyous that im on the ground.
One thing is for sure there is no place for arrogance and BH in his superior position should not ponder petty low flying breaches in his crusade to kill I mean clean up GA perhaps instead use his wealth of experience in a more productive way.
Fly safe.........
F.
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BH's attitude just plain sucks
Last year I reported somebody for driving erratically - well he was using BOTH sides of the road AND the pavement. He was subsequently convicted of drink-driving. Did I do the wrong thing? Should us motorists should stick together?
From FL's posts I guess it doesn't matter what the rights and wrongs of this incident are, it only matters what you can prove. My advice would be to write a polite letter to the owner, as Whirly suggested, and then forget all about it.
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Flash 0710,
EH?
Pardon me for asking the advice of my fellow aviators!
Would you rather I went straight to the CAA then???? I was under the impression that I'd made it perfectly clear that I was going with the majority and have a 'gentle word' with him via a letter. . .
BH
Edited due Alzheimer’s!
BH's attitude just plain sucks.
Pardon me for asking the advice of my fellow aviators!
Would you rather I went straight to the CAA then???? I was under the impression that I'd made it perfectly clear that I was going with the majority and have a 'gentle word' with him via a letter. . .
BH
Edited due Alzheimer’s!
Last edited by Big Hilly; 30th Mar 2004 at 10:19.
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BH
I vote for the "polite word" - but I'd be ready to complain to the CAA if you get an arrogant response.
One point not made by many is that at 200 ft he would have been distracting everyone on the road - this really is dangerous.
It's very common for rubberneckers to have accidents when driving past an incident on the opposite carriageway. A low flying a/c probably poses an even greater risk.
To create a distraction risk by low flying over a motorway (if that is what he was doing) is really not acceptable behaviour.
On what you say, he needs to explain himself and (if there was no real excuse - I'm a low hours PPL so I won't offer an opinion on that) be big enough to acknowledge that he shouldn't have been where he was.
An appropriate level of contrition would be nice.
Alexa
I vote for the "polite word" - but I'd be ready to complain to the CAA if you get an arrogant response.
One point not made by many is that at 200 ft he would have been distracting everyone on the road - this really is dangerous.
It's very common for rubberneckers to have accidents when driving past an incident on the opposite carriageway. A low flying a/c probably poses an even greater risk.
To create a distraction risk by low flying over a motorway (if that is what he was doing) is really not acceptable behaviour.
On what you say, he needs to explain himself and (if there was no real excuse - I'm a low hours PPL so I won't offer an opinion on that) be big enough to acknowledge that he shouldn't have been where he was.
An appropriate level of contrition would be nice.
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BH
I think R1200GS was quoting Flash 0710 when he said that your attitude just plain sucks.
In any case what does suck is the childish attacks on someone with more experiance than alot of the people in this forum asking for our advice!
Enough said on that topic I would say. It would be interesting to see people address the wider issue of this thread highlighted by Heliport.
Regards SR
I think R1200GS was quoting Flash 0710 when he said that your attitude just plain sucks.
In any case what does suck is the childish attacks on someone with more experiance than alot of the people in this forum asking for our advice!
Enough said on that topic I would say. It would be interesting to see people address the wider issue of this thread highlighted by Heliport.
Regards SR
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Slow Rider,
Thanks for pointing that out, have changed the post, Alzheimer’s must be setting in! 
BH
I think R1200GS was quoting Flash 0710 when he said that your attitude just plain sucks.
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Heliport,
1. I think that it is up to the CAA to carry out invesigation PROPERLY. And it is up to pilots to report dangerous and illegal practices. Unfortunately the CAA's bad track record means that pilots cannot trusted to handles these incidents properly. It is not up to pilots to carry out their own investigations because they are not trained to do that kind of thing. I say leave it to the professionals (the CAA
)
2. I think every pilot has a duty to report illegal and dangerous practices. I amazes me that people can even think that flying over a M-way as 200' is not dangerous. While we loathe regulation, it is this same regulation that gives aviation its reputation for safety. If a pilot refuses to abide by the regs, then they should be ready to suffer the consequences.
3. Flying over the motorway at 200' is illegal, dangerous and gives GA a bad name, so it affects me in more way than one. By reporting this chap to the CAA i will still be 'minding my own business'.
Aviation Constable
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1. I think that it is up to the CAA to carry out invesigation PROPERLY. And it is up to pilots to report dangerous and illegal practices. Unfortunately the CAA's bad track record means that pilots cannot trusted to handles these incidents properly. It is not up to pilots to carry out their own investigations because they are not trained to do that kind of thing. I say leave it to the professionals (the CAA
)2. I think every pilot has a duty to report illegal and dangerous practices. I amazes me that people can even think that flying over a M-way as 200' is not dangerous. While we loathe regulation, it is this same regulation that gives aviation its reputation for safety. If a pilot refuses to abide by the regs, then they should be ready to suffer the consequences.
3. Flying over the motorway at 200' is illegal, dangerous and gives GA a bad name, so it affects me in more way than one. By reporting this chap to the CAA i will still be 'minding my own business'.
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My last word as I'm sure BH has now made up his / her mind....
I don't think an aircraft flying along a motorway at 200' is dangerous to traffic really....How often have you seen a military helicopter, police helicopter or air ambulance close to the ground? Where i live we often get the coastguard helo flying around at low level, and we don't suffer from many chaotic traffic pile ups as a result.
Anyway, this stunt may have been stupid, irresponsible, or completely innocent, no one but the pilot knows the circumstances. The pilot may or may not have been below 500', no one knows but the pilot. I wouldn't report him to the CAA, and I wouldn't write him a letter either, or else we'll all turn into a bunch of aviation vigilanties. If I witnessed the same stunt by the same aircraft on another date then maybe my mind would change. Otherwise I'd just let it lie......
Now, where did I put the keys to my condor....
Cheers
EA
I don't think an aircraft flying along a motorway at 200' is dangerous to traffic really....How often have you seen a military helicopter, police helicopter or air ambulance close to the ground? Where i live we often get the coastguard helo flying around at low level, and we don't suffer from many chaotic traffic pile ups as a result.
Anyway, this stunt may have been stupid, irresponsible, or completely innocent, no one but the pilot knows the circumstances. The pilot may or may not have been below 500', no one knows but the pilot. I wouldn't report him to the CAA, and I wouldn't write him a letter either, or else we'll all turn into a bunch of aviation vigilanties. If I witnessed the same stunt by the same aircraft on another date then maybe my mind would change. Otherwise I'd just let it lie......
Now, where did I put the keys to my condor....
Cheers
EA
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Heliport brings up an interesting point; Should we police ‘our own’ or not? The answer is I don’t know (partly why I asked for advice here in the first place).
As aiglon said – what would you do if you knew someone was not having their a/c properly maintained – have a quiet word? What if that didn’t work?
Is maybe the issue here really our ‘perception’ of what is right and wrong rather than what is ‘legally’ right or wrong?
Let me give you some examples (these are fictional so please allow me some latitude here):
Scenario 1.
You have a mate who flew low over a Motorway – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who regularly flies low over a Motorway, you’ve had a word but he continues to do it – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who flew low over a Motorway. Later that day, you hear that 10 people died in a pile up, witnesses blamed a low flying aircraft – Do you shop him?
Scenario 2.
You have a mate who one night drove home ‘over the limit’ – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who regularly drives over the limit – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who knocked a child over whilst over the limit – Do you Shop him?
Scenario 3.
You are at a mate’s house, he is out and you are surfing the net on his computer. Curiosity gets the better of you and you have a nose around in his files. On his hard drive, you find some hardcore porn – Do you shop him?
The images have a fairly unpleasant bondage theme – Do you shop him?
The images are of small children – Do you shop him?
You see, as I said above, is it perhaps not necessarily ‘The Law’ that we react to, but our own personal perception of what is ‘right and wrong’?
I’m happy to stand corrected, be flamed (I’m fairly used to that by now ) or whatever but It would be interesting to hear some thoughts. . .
BH
As aiglon said – what would you do if you knew someone was not having their a/c properly maintained – have a quiet word? What if that didn’t work?
Is maybe the issue here really our ‘perception’ of what is right and wrong rather than what is ‘legally’ right or wrong?
Let me give you some examples (these are fictional so please allow me some latitude here):
Scenario 1.
You have a mate who flew low over a Motorway – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who regularly flies low over a Motorway, you’ve had a word but he continues to do it – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who flew low over a Motorway. Later that day, you hear that 10 people died in a pile up, witnesses blamed a low flying aircraft – Do you shop him?
Scenario 2.
You have a mate who one night drove home ‘over the limit’ – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who regularly drives over the limit – Do you shop him?
You have a mate who knocked a child over whilst over the limit – Do you Shop him?
Scenario 3.
You are at a mate’s house, he is out and you are surfing the net on his computer. Curiosity gets the better of you and you have a nose around in his files. On his hard drive, you find some hardcore porn – Do you shop him?
The images have a fairly unpleasant bondage theme – Do you shop him?
The images are of small children – Do you shop him?
You see, as I said above, is it perhaps not necessarily ‘The Law’ that we react to, but our own personal perception of what is ‘right and wrong’?
I’m happy to stand corrected, be flamed (I’m fairly used to that by now
) or whatever but It would be interesting to hear some thoughts. . .BH
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I think the way Big Hilly is handling this is very sensible. He asked us for advice because he was unsure.... he got advice and got bashed... shame on you all!
Let's "hope" that the pilot in question is reading here.... and will think twice about his future actions, if he was indeed being a "rowdy".
Here's another question for you all:
you know a flying buddy isn't healthy, a stroke maybe, his house doc even told him he couldn't drive the car..... you know about it, you (and others!) see him getting in his plane and flying, even taking guests with him! It was his own private plane. But, he's a founding member of the club... he helps with the cash flow...
What would you do??
the above story was no tall tale but the truth! it happened in a former club of mine about 20 years ago! no one did anything.... and I carry a "guilty" conscience with me until this day! and I still don't know what I would do if approached with a similar situation again....
luckily the guy died a natural death before he crashed with a plane......
Westy
Let's "hope" that the pilot in question is reading here.... and will think twice about his future actions, if he was indeed being a "rowdy".
Here's another question for you all:
you know a flying buddy isn't healthy, a stroke maybe, his house doc even told him he couldn't drive the car..... you know about it, you (and others!) see him getting in his plane and flying, even taking guests with him! It was his own private plane. But, he's a founding member of the club... he helps with the cash flow...
What would you do??
the above story was no tall tale but the truth! it happened in a former club of mine about 20 years ago! no one did anything.... and I carry a "guilty" conscience with me until this day! and I still don't know what I would do if approached with a similar situation again....
luckily the guy died a natural death before he crashed with a plane......
Westy
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Its the level of danger or risk that dictates what you do.
Flying 200' is not in itself dangerous. Aircraft will fly fine at 200'. The drivers of the cars below are responsible for their own safety, I don't suddenly loose control if I see an aircraft 200' above me. It is possible that this could "contribute" to an accident but it didn't cause it....No still won't shop them.
A drunk driver is a danger, they are not in control of their vehicle. If my fictional mate arrived home pissed in his car, I wouldn't shop him, however if I was there when he was leaving the pub, I wouldn't let him drive. If I found out later that him driving pissed had killed someone AND I KNEW FOR A FACT that it was him, then yes I would shop him.
On the porn thing, to some extent its up to my fictional mate what he gets up to. If he likes hardcore porn (and don't we all) then as long as it doesn't harm anyone then ok fine whatever. Hardcore bondage, fine, its up to him, so long as its not harming anyone. However I would draw the line a kiddie stuff. For this he'd get a right good kicking, and have to explain exactly what it was doing there. Again IF I KNEW FOR A FACT that this was a sick guy, then I'd shop him.
You have to give people the benefit of the doubt though, in all the above cases the key thing which would dictate whether or not I shop someone is the level of risk posed, AND IF I KNEW FOR A FACT. In you case I don't see how you can claim to KNOW FOR A FACT that Condor Man was at 200'. You DONT KNOW FOR A FACT what the situation was...maybe he was looking for a landing site, maybe they had a problem, maybe they were just being irresponsible. The fact is YOU DONT KNOW. This is the reason why I'd exercise caution when acting as a self appointed policeman of the sky.
Damn, wasn't my last post was it....oh well
EA
Flying 200' is not in itself dangerous. Aircraft will fly fine at 200'. The drivers of the cars below are responsible for their own safety, I don't suddenly loose control if I see an aircraft 200' above me. It is possible that this could "contribute" to an accident but it didn't cause it....No still won't shop them.
A drunk driver is a danger, they are not in control of their vehicle. If my fictional mate arrived home pissed in his car, I wouldn't shop him, however if I was there when he was leaving the pub, I wouldn't let him drive. If I found out later that him driving pissed had killed someone AND I KNEW FOR A FACT that it was him, then yes I would shop him.
On the porn thing, to some extent its up to my fictional mate what he gets up to. If he likes hardcore porn (and don't we all
) then as long as it doesn't harm anyone then ok fine whatever. Hardcore bondage, fine, its up to him, so long as its not harming anyone. However I would draw the line a kiddie stuff. For this he'd get a right good kicking, and have to explain exactly what it was doing there. Again IF I KNEW FOR A FACT that this was a sick guy, then I'd shop him.You have to give people the benefit of the doubt though, in all the above cases the key thing which would dictate whether or not I shop someone is the level of risk posed, AND IF I KNEW FOR A FACT. In you case I don't see how you can claim to KNOW FOR A FACT that Condor Man was at 200'. You DONT KNOW FOR A FACT what the situation was...maybe he was looking for a landing site, maybe they had a problem, maybe they were just being irresponsible. The fact is YOU DONT KNOW. This is the reason why I'd exercise caution when acting as a self appointed policeman of the sky.
Damn, wasn't my last post was it....oh well
EA
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Even the police dont try to get a conviction for dangerious driving when there is an eye witness who has reported it.
So tell me again, What did you see?? Are you sure?? How old are you?? When did you last have an eyesight check?? Do you wear glasses?? What speed were you driving at?? Was the sun in your eyes?? Did you have to slow down to view the aircraft?? Were you alone?? How long ago was this?? What time again?? Did you know the aircraft type before you got it from G-info?? Do you have a current pilots medical?? When was the last one?? Would you be willing to try to guess the height of several different aircraft from your car if required??
DONT BOTHER REPORTING HIM
So tell me again, What did you see?? Are you sure?? How old are you?? When did you last have an eyesight check?? Do you wear glasses?? What speed were you driving at?? Was the sun in your eyes?? Did you have to slow down to view the aircraft?? Were you alone?? How long ago was this?? What time again?? Did you know the aircraft type before you got it from G-info?? Do you have a current pilots medical?? When was the last one?? Would you be willing to try to guess the height of several different aircraft from your car if required??
DONT BOTHER REPORTING HIM
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jbqc,
Sorry, were those fictional questions or were they directed at me?
Oh for the love of God! I'll say this one last time!!! I AM NOT REPORTING HIM!!!
Actually, I've taken Sensible's idea (even though he called me nasty names) and sent the registered owner a note pointing him in the direction of this thread. . . .
BH
So tell me again, What did you see?? Are you sure?? How old are you?? When did you last have an eyesight check?? Do you wear glasses?? What speed were you driving at?? Was the sun in your eyes?? Did you have to slow down to view the aircraft?? Were you alone?? How long ago was this?? What time again?? Did you know the aircraft type before you got it from G-info?? Do you have a current pilots medical?? When was the last one?? Would you be willing to try to guess the height of several different aircraft from your car if required??
DONT BOTHER REPORTING HIM
Actually, I've taken Sensible's idea (even though he called me nasty names
) and sent the registered owner a note pointing him in the direction of this thread. . . .BH
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Its just you seem so sure he was at 200 feet. I have 32 years flying experience and 5,500 hours and I don't need specs and I am not sure if I could tell what height.
So what I am saying is you may have been wrong about the height
JB
So what I am saying is you may have been wrong about the height
JB
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jbqc,
Perhaps you missed my post on page 4
In answer to your questions:
No, sun not in eyes. Didn't slow down. All have current class 1 medicals. I'd guess around 40,000'ish hours between us.
BH
Perhaps you missed my post on page 4
Perhaps I should explain. There were four of us in the car. Each of us extremely experienced professional pilots and each of us said “WTF!!!!!!!!” As I said before, he was NO MORE than 200ft In reality, he was probably lower. Was he at 201ft? Maybe. Was he at 150ft? Maybe. Was he at 501ft? NO FUNG
WAY!!!!!
WAY!!!!!
No, sun not in eyes. Didn't slow down. All have current class 1 medicals. I'd guess around 40,000'ish hours between us.
BH
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Please can we move on from the specific issue initially raised by Big Hilly. He asked for our opinions and has said in the clearest possible terms that he's been influenced by the majority view. That's now water well under the bridge.
There's potential for a good discussion of the general issue if we can let go of the particular facts of the initial question.
There's potential for a good discussion of the general issue if we can let go of the particular facts of the initial question.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
On the wider issue of how we discuss these incidents - perhaps asking for advice as BH has done - I think it is important not to allow our feelings to influence our choice of words too much.
For example, had BH not used the phrase
I believe that the responses would, in turn have been more moderate.
This is not a criticism - BH, you have every right to express how you felt - but simply an observation that your anger suggested that you might fall into the "I take great pleasure in being a pompous, self-righteous bastard" camp (your subsequent posts seem to suggest otherwise!), which is what many people seem to have reacted to.
SD
For example, had BH not used the phrase
it made me bloody furious and my blood is still boiling
This is not a criticism - BH, you have every right to express how you felt - but simply an observation that your anger suggested that you might fall into the "I take great pleasure in being a pompous, self-righteous bastard" camp (your subsequent posts seem to suggest otherwise!), which is what many people seem to have reacted to.
SD