Bad Passengers........
Spicy Meatball
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liverpool UK
Age: 41
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to bear off track a little but I am really curious as to the regulations on letting other people "have a go" of the controls (if you are a PPL holder. Are you allowed to let them have a quick touch ?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you allowed to let them have a quick touch ?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BRL
I have been up with lots of people and all appear to have really enjoyed the flying; I never had any problems, and that includes my children who have been up a number of times. Generally I prefer to fly with somebody rather than alone.
However the sole pilot is responsible for the plane and for getting the whole lot safely back and that applies regardless of any passenger emergency; adults in that situation would be left alone to look after themselves but kids cannot.
If you are a single adult in a plane with children and something happened, then you could have a problem dealing with it.
Obviously it depends on the kids' maturity, and there is only one way to establish that. But there is no doubt there is a lot more responsibility involved. A number of GA accidents (obviously only ones where somebody survived to tell the tale) have been linked to pilot distraction by passengers; I recall reading one report recently where a pilot appears to have completely lost the plot due to passengers being sick, etc.
I find the biggest problem by far with passengers is something completely different: you (the pilot) may have a few days to spare, but they need to get back to work the next day and you cannot risk a flight in anything resembling suspect weather. On two occassions I nearly bought an airline ticket for a passenger (the cost would have been huge) but in the end we flew back the next day. Such is life if flying abroad without a full IR...
I have been up with lots of people and all appear to have really enjoyed the flying; I never had any problems, and that includes my children who have been up a number of times. Generally I prefer to fly with somebody rather than alone.
However the sole pilot is responsible for the plane and for getting the whole lot safely back and that applies regardless of any passenger emergency; adults in that situation would be left alone to look after themselves but kids cannot.
If you are a single adult in a plane with children and something happened, then you could have a problem dealing with it.
Obviously it depends on the kids' maturity, and there is only one way to establish that. But there is no doubt there is a lot more responsibility involved. A number of GA accidents (obviously only ones where somebody survived to tell the tale) have been linked to pilot distraction by passengers; I recall reading one report recently where a pilot appears to have completely lost the plot due to passengers being sick, etc.
I find the biggest problem by far with passengers is something completely different: you (the pilot) may have a few days to spare, but they need to get back to work the next day and you cannot risk a flight in anything resembling suspect weather. On two occassions I nearly bought an airline ticket for a passenger (the cost would have been huge) but in the end we flew back the next day. Such is life if flying abroad without a full IR...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi there. I wasn't having a go, honestly. I know lots of pilots who have taken young children up and they are comfortable with that. The reason I find it interesting is I think you are the first pilot I know who does this and I was wondering if this was the same with other pilots. 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scarey pax
One of the babes in the office where I used to work, saw the picy of my Pitts on my desk and told me how much she'd like to "loop the loop".
A few days later I find myself house-sitting a nice S2A with an open front seat. I remember office babe and invite her down to come out to play.
Introduce her to the aeroplane, brief on the sortie, strap her in (one of the few pleasures in tandem aircraft) and taxi out, pre-flight check including a final check of her harness and off we go. Up to FL nosebleed and a last check to make sure that she is ready:
We do a gentle barell roll, "More, more!", through the headset.
Loop - she still wants more. I start running through quite a nice positive G sequence that I use to warm up
Loop into P loop into roll off the top into split S into stall turn into a super-slow roll into 1/2 reverse Cuban into up 45 into a 2 turn spin.
She's still happy but I feel it is time to head back. We are chatting away and I tell her that we'll be landing very shortly and identify the strip for her. At this moment I can see/feel (against my toes) her arse squirming around.
We land taxi back to the hangar and I shut down. I tell her to remain where she is (tube and fabric aeroplanes are very vulnerable to slightly dizzy pax). As I stand on the lower wing and lean in to help her unstrap I realise that BOTH seatbelts, crotchbelt and shoulder harnesses have been unbuckled and then re-buckled wherever was most opportune.
"Err, the seatbelts, have you been fiddling with them?"
" Yes, of course," she replied somewhat indignantly, "everyone knows that after take-off you can undo them and then you must do them up again for landing. I have been in a plane
before!"
"You've been in an AEROPLANE before?"
"Yes, me and Denise from the typing pool went to Ibiza with Monarch and that is what the Captain told us!"
Just as well we didn't try anything negative
Needless to say I know let my front seat pax know of this tale SO that it couldn't happen again
Stik
A few days later I find myself house-sitting a nice S2A with an open front seat. I remember office babe and invite her down to come out to play.
Introduce her to the aeroplane, brief on the sortie, strap her in (one of the few pleasures in tandem aircraft) and taxi out, pre-flight check including a final check of her harness and off we go. Up to FL nosebleed and a last check to make sure that she is ready:
We do a gentle barell roll, "More, more!", through the headset.
Loop - she still wants more. I start running through quite a nice positive G sequence that I use to warm up
Loop into P loop into roll off the top into split S into stall turn into a super-slow roll into 1/2 reverse Cuban into up 45 into a 2 turn spin.
She's still happy but I feel it is time to head back. We are chatting away and I tell her that we'll be landing very shortly and identify the strip for her. At this moment I can see/feel (against my toes) her arse squirming around.
We land taxi back to the hangar and I shut down. I tell her to remain where she is (tube and fabric aeroplanes are very vulnerable to slightly dizzy pax). As I stand on the lower wing and lean in to help her unstrap I realise that BOTH seatbelts, crotchbelt and shoulder harnesses have been unbuckled and then re-buckled wherever was most opportune.
"Err, the seatbelts, have you been fiddling with them?"
" Yes, of course," she replied somewhat indignantly, "everyone knows that after take-off you can undo them and then you must do them up again for landing. I have been in a plane
before!""You've been in an AEROPLANE before?"
"Yes, me and Denise from the typing pool went to Ibiza with Monarch and that is what the Captain told us!"
Just as well we didn't try anything negative
Needless to say I know let my front seat pax know of this tale SO that it couldn't happen again
Stik
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bordeaux, France
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stik,
That is an absolute classic
Do tell me this was a Blond babe, as that is a classic blond moment.....
SD..
PS.. do you mind if I tell everyone I know about that one.....with suitable embelishment naturally
That is an absolute classic
Do tell me this was a Blond babe, as that is a classic blond moment.....SD..
PS.. do you mind if I tell everyone I know about that one.....with suitable embelishment naturally
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha! Great story, Stik, and just think, if we'd split-S you off into a "People in Purple Aeroplanes" Forum, so few of us would get to hear it (although I for one would be prepared to buy some purple paint in order to join the forum).
PS: [In annoying arsy safety-nazi voice] "Oi! that's HaSell with an S!""
PS: [In annoying arsy safety-nazi voice] "Oi! that's HaSell with an S!""
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, it’s confession time. Last post written after one night in Bangkok, so that explains the sentimentality (at least did not phone girly and told her I love her 50 times!). To go back to the original question of bad pax, I have only had one. It was such an experience for both of us it is worth repeating. It was 10 years ago but it still makes me cringe.
It was the day of the local club airshow, with all local flying to be concluded by 1300. I had been baited by bigmouth boyfriend of a mate of mine about pilots, flying etc, etc. He was a computer programmer who believed people should be run by Machines. Got to airfield and had to do a tailwheel change, now running tight on time. Elect not to fly due time (god the boy has brains), get baited by computer bloke about pilots again decide to fly (No he doesn’t). Strap the mouth in without my usual lengthy safety, fun etc etc briefing. Taxi, Checks, go, get to 50 ft, mouth grabs controls.
Before you say hit him with big stick, it was a tandem ac with him in the back. He says he feels safer holding on to the stick, I ask him to let go. Ac in an increasingly nose high attitude; speed dropping. Can not overpower controls, start to get very firm verbally, speed 45kts dropping. 
Keep ball in the middle, now getting very verbally concise. After letting mouth know he has 5 seconds to live, get back controls. I land immediately and taxi in. Not fully paying attention, I nearly taxi into the back of a visiting 172 who had parked on a taxi way (no forward vis directly over the nose). 
I made so many mistakes, that day and have gone over them many times (so no assassinations please). Lessons learned were many. Main points, NEVER rush, ALWAYS brief and finally ……………..better not say or all the computer programmers in the world will seek revenge.
Please do not let the horror stories put you off flying pax especially youngsters (better they turn into pilots not programmers).
Regards to all
Wide.
Stik: a brilliant story, but worth taking seriously in my YAK
It was the day of the local club airshow, with all local flying to be concluded by 1300. I had been baited by bigmouth boyfriend of a mate of mine about pilots, flying etc, etc. He was a computer programmer who believed people should be run by Machines. Got to airfield and had to do a tailwheel change, now running tight on time. Elect not to fly due time (god the boy has brains), get baited by computer bloke about pilots again decide to fly (No he doesn’t). Strap the mouth in without my usual lengthy safety, fun etc etc briefing. Taxi, Checks, go, get to 50 ft, mouth grabs controls.
Before you say hit him with big stick, it was a tandem ac with him in the back. He says he feels safer holding on to the stick, I ask him to let go. Ac in an increasingly nose high attitude; speed dropping. Can not overpower controls, start to get very firm verbally, speed 45kts dropping. Keep ball in the middle, now getting very verbally concise. After letting mouth know he has 5 seconds to live, get back controls. I land immediately and taxi in. Not fully paying attention, I nearly taxi into the back of a visiting 172 who had parked on a taxi way (no forward vis directly over the nose). I made so many mistakes, that day and have gone over them many times (so no assassinations please). Lessons learned were many. Main points, NEVER rush, ALWAYS brief and finally ……………..better not say or all the computer programmers in the world will seek revenge.
Please do not let the horror stories put you off flying pax especially youngsters (better they turn into pilots not programmers).
Regards to all
Wide.
Stik: a brilliant story, but worth taking seriously in my YAK
The only baddish one I had was when I took my girlfriend up in my new (read ancient Cessna Aerobat) wonderplane. I was well aware that she is a nervous passenger in anything and everything.
Take off was normal, gentle climb out, gentle rate 0.25 turn onto downwind, then POP, the bloody oil filler flap catch let go and the flap started waving around right in front of her. Huge screams from the right hand seat and a death grip on my upper body as she threw herself across the cockpit and embraced me. I didn't think that I'd manage to fly the curved approach into Popham's 26 in this position so rapidly went into assurance mode and settled for a death grip on my right arm instead. The oil filler flap was flapping merrily around but we plopped onto the ground OK. Fair play to her, she let me taxi to the hangar, beg some gaffer tape (the catch was knackered) to tape the flap down and do another circuit with her. She went on to do a few lessons but it never really gelled with her.
Take off was normal, gentle climb out, gentle rate 0.25 turn onto downwind, then POP, the bloody oil filler flap catch let go and the flap started waving around right in front of her. Huge screams from the right hand seat and a death grip on my upper body as she threw herself across the cockpit and embraced me. I didn't think that I'd manage to fly the curved approach into Popham's 26 in this position so rapidly went into assurance mode and settled for a death grip on my right arm instead. The oil filler flap was flapping merrily around but we plopped onto the ground OK. Fair play to her, she let me taxi to the hangar, beg some gaffer tape (the catch was knackered) to tape the flap down and do another circuit with her. She went on to do a few lessons but it never really gelled with her.
'just another atco'
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: LTC Swanwick
Age: 60
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not too long ago I was doing Luton Radar and was free-called by a callsign requesting zone transit. Unfortunately, because of the noise of the children screaming in the back of the aeroplane I couldn't make out many of the details or even be sure of the complete callsign. After several attempts I explained politely that unless the pilot could shut the kids up I would not be able to offer a service. He acknowledged this and still with his finger clasped to the PTT switch, turned around and told the kids to "shut the f##k up"! This seemed to do the trick and he continued to transmit, for the forth time, his flight details. Unfortunately, I was laughing so much that I had to ask him to repeat them two more times before I could offer him the transit clearance he was requesting!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is why an intercom which has a pilot-only setting is really useful. Especially on longer flights where one can't really expect the passengers to listen to ATC conversations with great interest.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the subject of passengers.....i sometimes think of "worse case scenarios", and what i'd do....... but i like to think that if there were any serious doubts on passenger's mental states...then hopefully i would sus' this out before taking them flying.
I brief my passengers ( i think quite well).... and emphasize the fact that they will probably feel turbulance etc, more in a relatively small aeroplane, compared to the airliner......the passengers then seem to revel in the fact that they have not been at all affected by the turbulance etc...and feel very happy with themselves.
I have never taken a child flying......my sister has two kids around 5 years old.......but to take kids up this young would worry me a little... ( screaming kids in the back.....not good ).
I brief my passengers ( i think quite well).... and emphasize the fact that they will probably feel turbulance etc, more in a relatively small aeroplane, compared to the airliner......the passengers then seem to revel in the fact that they have not been at all affected by the turbulance etc...and feel very happy with themselves.
I have never taken a child flying......my sister has two kids around 5 years old.......but to take kids up this young would worry me a little... ( screaming kids in the back.....not good ).
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kids have been the least of my worries. Two of my three sons (ages 12 and 14, started flying at 7 and 9), do a credible job of holding heading and altitude, doing good coordinated turns, etc.
I've also flown a ton of Young Eagles around with nary a hitch except for the odd kid that tries to clown away his nervousness in front of his mates.
The adults are another story! I wasn't sure if I should post this in the "when you nearly became another statistic thread", but it really is a passenger from hell story.
The location was CZBM, (Bromont, Quebec, Canada) where I kept my PA28-140 (and now keep my Beech C23). Nice 5000 ft of blacktop, LOC/DME approaches, etc, with a built-in permanent crosswind or so it seems at times.
This day was sunny, hot, and particularly gusty. Took up a brother-in-law's mate. Did a nice preflight briefing except I forgot one essential detail: those pedals on the floor are not footrests!
So we take off, gusting crosswind from the right. Plane starts to veer to the left of the centerline (bad: glider strip in use parallel to the blacktop), so I crank 'er in to the wind, when the bird promptly tries to settle out of ground effect back on to mother Earth. No problemo, probably just a downdraft. Build speed back up, crank her into the wind again, and once more: mush back to earth. Hmm. Well let me tell you, even at 70 mph 5000 ft goes by in a hurry.
Now we're at the sweating, "what the f**k is going on?" stage. No more runway to play with, sick PA28 refusing to climb and a scared stiff passenger on his first light plane ride. Scared so stiff in fact....wait a minute, why is his left leg straight out and rigid??? Yep. He was depressing full left rudder. I hadn't noticed the rudder skew because typically I'd be applying right pressure at full power anyway with my left leg dangling; I don't feel movement so much as pressure and I had normal pressure application. Sho' 'nuff, the ball was askew.
The idiot had me doing a full rudder sideslip to try and stay on runway centerline. Now a PA28 on a hot summer day is no great performer. One in a sideslip is simply going in one direction: back down to Earth! So I yell out a "get your f*****g leg off the pedals" and whack him a good on on the thigh. Off came the leg, and now the good ol' PA28 rediscovered what it was built for and lept into the air and into a normal climb. B*****d didn't even offer to pay a share of the fuel for his ride.
You can be sure that now my briefing includes a "keep your hands and FEET away from the controls at all times". On occasion I might invite someone trustworthy to try the controls in SMOOTH weather.
I won't go into the barfing passengers stories (never happened to me but a buddy that flies my plane had it happen to him). Learned long ago, with novice passengers: smooth air, rate 0.00001 turns, etc.
Funny too: your best mates that you'd take up flying even if they took a vow of poverty, always offer to pay for some of the fuel. The passengers from hell, go free (and only once!).
I've also flown a ton of Young Eagles around with nary a hitch except for the odd kid that tries to clown away his nervousness in front of his mates.
The adults are another story! I wasn't sure if I should post this in the "when you nearly became another statistic thread", but it really is a passenger from hell story.
The location was CZBM, (Bromont, Quebec, Canada) where I kept my PA28-140 (and now keep my Beech C23). Nice 5000 ft of blacktop, LOC/DME approaches, etc, with a built-in permanent crosswind or so it seems at times.
This day was sunny, hot, and particularly gusty. Took up a brother-in-law's mate. Did a nice preflight briefing except I forgot one essential detail: those pedals on the floor are not footrests!
So we take off, gusting crosswind from the right. Plane starts to veer to the left of the centerline (bad: glider strip in use parallel to the blacktop), so I crank 'er in to the wind, when the bird promptly tries to settle out of ground effect back on to mother Earth. No problemo, probably just a downdraft. Build speed back up, crank her into the wind again, and once more: mush back to earth. Hmm. Well let me tell you, even at 70 mph 5000 ft goes by in a hurry.
Now we're at the sweating, "what the f**k is going on?" stage. No more runway to play with, sick PA28 refusing to climb and a scared stiff passenger on his first light plane ride. Scared so stiff in fact....wait a minute, why is his left leg straight out and rigid??? Yep. He was depressing full left rudder. I hadn't noticed the rudder skew because typically I'd be applying right pressure at full power anyway with my left leg dangling; I don't feel movement so much as pressure and I had normal pressure application. Sho' 'nuff, the ball was askew.
The idiot had me doing a full rudder sideslip to try and stay on runway centerline. Now a PA28 on a hot summer day is no great performer. One in a sideslip is simply going in one direction: back down to Earth! So I yell out a "get your f*****g leg off the pedals" and whack him a good on on the thigh. Off came the leg, and now the good ol' PA28 rediscovered what it was built for and lept into the air and into a normal climb. B*****d didn't even offer to pay a share of the fuel for his ride.
You can be sure that now my briefing includes a "keep your hands and FEET away from the controls at all times". On occasion I might invite someone trustworthy to try the controls in SMOOTH weather.
I won't go into the barfing passengers stories (never happened to me but a buddy that flies my plane had it happen to him). Learned long ago, with novice passengers: smooth air, rate 0.00001 turns, etc.
Funny too: your best mates that you'd take up flying even if they took a vow of poverty, always offer to pay for some of the fuel. The passengers from hell, go free (and only once!).
Mess Your Passage
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Temporarily Unaware......
Age: 25
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evenings used to be spent after a hectic day by going out for a local flight and taking up anyone who frequented the airfield bar.
A father had asked me if i would mind taking his two daughters for a fly.
This is something i had no hesitation doing ( always for the ladies)
One of the daughters were how do we say " educationally Constrained) But this was in no way going to be a flight safety issue and both girls were placed in the rear of the ac
Told the girls we would pop up to canary wharf and the dome etc and get a nice early evening view of London.
Once clear of the field begin to talk to Thames requesting a couple of orbits of the dome etc trying to sound that i would be able to cope with all instructions recieved by him. Daughter in the back though was obviously having a good time and began to make cooing noises in the back which cut through all other forms of sound.
"Sounds like you are having a party up there" said the thames controller....
Hmm said i.
No drama tho and as wide says its all about what you make it.....
Enjoy
Keep em coming.
A father had asked me if i would mind taking his two daughters for a fly.
This is something i had no hesitation doing ( always for the ladies)
One of the daughters were how do we say " educationally Constrained) But this was in no way going to be a flight safety issue and both girls were placed in the rear of the ac
Told the girls we would pop up to canary wharf and the dome etc and get a nice early evening view of London.
Once clear of the field begin to talk to Thames requesting a couple of orbits of the dome etc trying to sound that i would be able to cope with all instructions recieved by him. Daughter in the back though was obviously having a good time and began to make cooing noises in the back which cut through all other forms of sound.
"Sounds like you are having a party up there" said the thames controller....
Hmm said i.
No drama tho and as wide says its all about what you make it.....
Enjoy
Keep em coming.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lancs, UK
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only one that caused me any anxiety was a friend I took on a return trip from LPL to Shobdon. Gave him all the usual briefings before both take offs and even gave him a reminder on finals about not touching anything. Just as I was in the flare on the homecoming to LPL, (there was quite a strong crosswind so I was crabbing in) he decided to stretch his legs and pushed really hard on exactly the wrong rudder pedal!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Since I have carted pax for a job it's a tad unfair. Got a lot of barfing and terrified punter stories. However, this kid takes the biscuit.
Scene, Cairns to Dunk Is in a Twotter. I'm the FO. Since the captain does all the paper work it's up to the FO to brief the pax. Since Dunk is a holiday destination I try to keep the brief short, fun and informative. I saw this 10 yo girl from a fair way back on the tarmac as they were approaching the aeroplane. Nothing like hearing "are we going in THAT little plane?" to really unerve the sometimes spooked punters. Remember, they've just walked past the Ansett 767s, 737s and one or two 146's. This little terror asked why we couldn't go in one of those. My reply "well, we could probably land it, but it would never take off again"
Any way, start doing the brief, you're all familiar with it, seat belts, life jackets, exits etc and all the time she's interrupting me and generally carrying on. (Thanks parents NOT for shutting her up). Zoom down the coast to Dunk and plonk it on the runway.
It's a shortish strip ~800m and so the brakes are used.
In the Twotter the big brake disks are exposed and easily touched if you have a go.
What does this little girl do when she gets off the aeroplane? Makes a bee line for the hot disks. I practically grabbed her and shooed her away from the wheels. Glared at her parents and shook my head. She would have lost all her skin on her hands and screamed her little lungs out if she had have touched them.
More importantly, she might have damaged the disk.
Scene, Cairns to Dunk Is in a Twotter. I'm the FO. Since the captain does all the paper work it's up to the FO to brief the pax. Since Dunk is a holiday destination I try to keep the brief short, fun and informative. I saw this 10 yo girl from a fair way back on the tarmac as they were approaching the aeroplane. Nothing like hearing "are we going in THAT little plane?" to really unerve the sometimes spooked punters. Remember, they've just walked past the Ansett 767s, 737s and one or two 146's. This little terror asked why we couldn't go in one of those. My reply "well, we could probably land it, but it would never take off again"
Any way, start doing the brief, you're all familiar with it, seat belts, life jackets, exits etc and all the time she's interrupting me and generally carrying on. (Thanks parents NOT for shutting her up). Zoom down the coast to Dunk and plonk it on the runway.
It's a shortish strip ~800m and so the brakes are used.
In the Twotter the big brake disks are exposed and easily touched if you have a go.
What does this little girl do when she gets off the aeroplane? Makes a bee line for the hot disks. I practically grabbed her and shooed her away from the wheels. Glared at her parents and shook my head. She would have lost all her skin on her hands and screamed her little lungs out if she had have touched them.
More importantly, she might have damaged the disk.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I took my eldest up in the back of the Cub aged only just four. Although I did take the stick out of the back, he can reach the throttle and open the door if he wants, so I slightly scared him stupid before we went up!
No problems so far and he loves going off camping with the plane. That's very special.
QDM
No problems so far and he loves going off camping with the plane. That's very special.
QDM