121.5 - Where Am I...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Around
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A bit more than 'basic' radar, they have access to all the radar heads that London Military do (IIRC). The DF is another tool they have, but don't assume it's all done with that, they are more than capable of issuing a squawk/turn and identifying you. Same at Scottish D&D (they are a seperate entity, in a room in the corner at ScOACC).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To clarify - I'm fairly good at using my experience to identify a likely background in situations like this. I looked up the Reg on G-INFO afterwards - the aircraft was privately owned (i.e. unlikely to be a student). He also didn't sound like a student (if that makes sense - he just sounded hassled, really)
I don't think it was really a 'worsening weather' situation either - it was mid-afternoon; the sinking sun might have played a part but generally the weather was great. That's another case-in-point: You can convince yourself that you are lost eve though it's severe clear!
D&D eventually assigned a squawk but that was much later (once the ontroller appeared satisfied that all was under control. Presumably (and I'd love to know) the DF trace is used to identify a primary trace that the controller then works with - somebody let me know. The 'can you see a church spire'-thing really amazed me. The human factors apect fascinated me too (as you can tell, that's kind of my thing)
IO-540 - why do the CAA/NATS/Flying clubs generally not embrace GPS more: God only knows. I think that they're all mad.
cheers
I don't think it was really a 'worsening weather' situation either - it was mid-afternoon; the sinking sun might have played a part but generally the weather was great. That's another case-in-point: You can convince yourself that you are lost eve though it's severe clear!
D&D eventually assigned a squawk but that was much later (once the ontroller appeared satisfied that all was under control. Presumably (and I'd love to know) the DF trace is used to identify a primary trace that the controller then works with - somebody let me know. The 'can you see a church spire'-thing really amazed me. The human factors apect fascinated me too (as you can tell, that's kind of my thing)
IO-540 - why do the CAA/NATS/Flying clubs generally not embrace GPS more: God only knows. I think that they're all mad.
cheers
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SE England
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have used D&D twice both for training purposes. However, we have noticed that around the Basingstoke/Hook area, the fix you get from D&D is not accurate at all. Several pilots i know have tried D&D in this area and have had similar inaccuracies - anyone know why?!
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Buckinghamshire
Age: 61
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great thread! On a very minor point:
I wouldn't necessarily correlate "privately owned" with "not a student" - lots of privately owned aircraft are in fact operated by clubs and used for training.
Andy
the aircraft was privately owned (i.e. unlikely to be a student).
Andy
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few more random comments from my 45 minutes in D & D:
The DF was clearly the preferred method of location. RADAR was available, but secondary.
The triangulated "cocked hat" DF position is typically accurate to about 1 mile. I think the worst case is about 3 miles (I forget the exact figure) over England. Wales and UK extremities are more variable.
If you ask for a heading to your destination, they will give you the direct heading regardless of wether it cuts straight through, for example, the Gatwick CTA. You are still responsible for flying within the law. You could ask them to contact Gatwick approach (who is sitting in a different room at LATCC just along the corridoor from D & D) but don't assume that they will automatically.
The controllers would like to be called at the first hint of a mishap, rather than when it's all gone t!ts up and the situation is getting out of hand. If you call them up and then suddenly the problem goes away, they will be happy for you and not consider it a waste of their time.
D & D is manned by RAF controllers and the service was established primarily for military pilots in difficulty. Most of the equipment is rather old (lots of nice polished wooden control panels) and unsupported by the original manufacturers. There is a feeling that when the kit finally dies, it will not be replaced. The implication was that it would be cheaper (for the taxpayer) to lose the occasional Hawk into the side of a Welsh mountain
The more civvy pilots who use the service (hopefully just for practice), the better case there will be to keep it running .
TG.
The DF was clearly the preferred method of location. RADAR was available, but secondary.
The triangulated "cocked hat" DF position is typically accurate to about 1 mile. I think the worst case is about 3 miles (I forget the exact figure) over England. Wales and UK extremities are more variable.
If you ask for a heading to your destination, they will give you the direct heading regardless of wether it cuts straight through, for example, the Gatwick CTA. You are still responsible for flying within the law. You could ask them to contact Gatwick approach (who is sitting in a different room at LATCC just along the corridoor from D & D) but don't assume that they will automatically.
The controllers would like to be called at the first hint of a mishap, rather than when it's all gone t!ts up and the situation is getting out of hand. If you call them up and then suddenly the problem goes away, they will be happy for you and not consider it a waste of their time.
D & D is manned by RAF controllers and the service was established primarily for military pilots in difficulty. Most of the equipment is rather old (lots of nice polished wooden control panels) and unsupported by the original manufacturers. There is a feeling that when the kit finally dies, it will not be replaced. The implication was that it would be cheaper (for the taxpayer) to lose the occasional Hawk into the side of a Welsh mountain
The more civvy pilots who use the service (hopefully just for practice), the better case there will be to keep it running .
TG.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest a less charitable person (i.e. Me) might have just mentioned that they deserved to get lost with that sort of flight planning.
I've been lost two or three times before, and probably will be again. It's a horrible feeling, and indeed can be positively debilitating. Let's not be so hard on this fellow.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does SSR coverage compare with D&D's VDF coverage?
I know one cannot get full Radar Info unless the controller sees both primary and secondary returns, but for location purposes a transponder should be as good, down to a similar height AGL. And D&D get access to far more radars than a PPL.
If the two are comparable, the only advantage of D&D's VDF is that no transponder is needed. So after 2008 (mandatory Mode S) there won't be any need for the service - assuming of course that PPLs wishing to bust some airspace don't pull the circuit breaker before getting lost
Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost? They have IFF, for a start.
I know a Hawk pilot who says most don't have a GPS and they tend to use dead reckoning (although an ILS is part of the basic training) but then a Hawk isn't likely to see much action these days.
I know one cannot get full Radar Info unless the controller sees both primary and secondary returns, but for location purposes a transponder should be as good, down to a similar height AGL. And D&D get access to far more radars than a PPL.
If the two are comparable, the only advantage of D&D's VDF is that no transponder is needed. So after 2008 (mandatory Mode S) there won't be any need for the service - assuming of course that PPLs wishing to bust some airspace don't pull the circuit breaker before getting lost
Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost? They have IFF, for a start.
I know a Hawk pilot who says most don't have a GPS and they tend to use dead reckoning (although an ILS is part of the basic training) but then a Hawk isn't likely to see much action these days.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?
I left Welshpool, flew to Great Malvern, turned as planned and flew back to Shobdon for my first ever solo landaway. All I had to do then was fly back to Welshpool, a total of 16 minutes. And I got lost. I missed Knighton, the only obvious landmark unless you're experienced in navigating in rural mountain areas, and ended up too far South. I saw a town, thought it was Welshpool, and called the airfield to say I had five miles to run. When I couldn't find the airfield I realised I must have misidentified the town, and decided it was Newtown, so started heading North to get to Welshpool. It was actually Oswestry...and don't ask how I could have confused the two - I was confused, period! And tired, and a bit worried. Anyway, I flew North, and Welshpool never showed up. Meanwhile I got out of Welshpool airfield's range, and they got VERY worried. When I got to Wrexham I realised something had gone wrong, started to orbit, calmed down, and suddenly worked it all out correctly. I then started to fly back south to Oswestry and Welshpool. Just south of Oswestry, Welshpool A/G managed to contact me, to their great relief, and told me to contact Shawbury to find out where I was. I told them I knew where I was now. They insisted I contact Shawbury. So I did, and they told me I was 8 miles North of Welshpool, which I knew anyway. Well, I landed, and my instructor was furious. How, he asked, had I managed to get lost on a 16 minute leg, on a route I'd flown before. I told him to sit down and I'd tell him. I did, and he nodded, and told my to book my NFT (Navigation Flight Test, forerunner of the nav part of the Skills Test). I looked at him in amazement, and asked if he didn't want me to repeat the flight. He said no, I'd got lost, but I knew why, and I'd learned from it, so there was no point and no need.
So you see, whatever instructors do, students can and do get lost.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirly,
I don't think the point was that an instructor could prevent a student from getting lost. It was more that an instructor would have ensurred the student would have done the planning properly, and have a plog showing the features/town they were going to use, and have their route marked on the map. It appears from the first post on this thread, that this pilot had none of that done.
dp
I don't think the point was that an instructor could prevent a student from getting lost. It was more that an instructor would have ensurred the student would have done the planning properly, and have a plog showing the features/town they were going to use, and have their route marked on the map. It appears from the first post on this thread, that this pilot had none of that done.
dp
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I realised I must have misidentified the town, and decided it was Newtown, so started heading North to get to Welshpool. It was actually Oswestry...and don't ask how I could have confused the two
Been there, done that ... it's hard to guard against.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MLS, old chap:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7, Also Luke 6)
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8 is the sermon on the mount)
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things" from Romans
All very sound advice for those who wish to tread the 'but for the grace of God' middle ground. However, it's actually my job as an instructor/checker to 'judge' and thence to help cure and improve (I hope not without humility). But I take your point. In fact, I think you'll find that the 'spirit' of the passage from Romans is in line with my original sentiment: We are all similar, fallible and frail. Perhaps we can draw the Chaplain into this!
Anyway, my original point was that I found hearing it 'for real' fascinating and I was wondering if any of you had any more info. So far the response has been great.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7, Also Luke 6)
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8 is the sermon on the mount)
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things" from Romans
All very sound advice for those who wish to tread the 'but for the grace of God' middle ground. However, it's actually my job as an instructor/checker to 'judge' and thence to help cure and improve (I hope not without humility). But I take your point. In fact, I think you'll find that the 'spirit' of the passage from Romans is in line with my original sentiment: We are all similar, fallible and frail. Perhaps we can draw the Chaplain into this!
Anyway, my original point was that I found hearing it 'for real' fascinating and I was wondering if any of you had any more info. So far the response has been great.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540
One problem with relying on SSR (beyond 2008) could be that D & D operate a H24 service, whereas most of the UK military units close for the weekend. I don't know if the RADAR itself continues to provide a feed and it is just the controllers who go home ?
TG.
I know one cannot get full Radar Info unless the controller sees both primary and secondary returns, but for location purposes a transponder should be as good, down to a similar height AGL. And D&D get access to far more radars than a PPL.
TG.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A slightly different experience and what I learnt...
About six years ago I was flying IFR from the west country back to Birmingham and getting a radar service from Brize. Wx was rubbish and I had delayed the departure until the Birmingham actuals went sufficiently above minimums to have a high probability of not having to divert.
Everything was wonderful above the clouds until Brize asked me to contact D&D on 121.5. This filled me with horror and I wondered what terrible catastrophe they expected and I wondered why I didn't know I was in trouble. Anyway, it all became clear as soon as I called them and they wanted help in communicating with a lost aircraft somewhere near the Welsh border; they could barely hear him and he seemed to be having difficulty in hearing them.
I remember communication being difficult and I explained that I had over five hours of fuel on board, was there anything else I could do to help?
To cut a long story short, they radar vectored me down to VMC, and radar vectored me right up to the lost aircraft, eventually saying something like "aircraft is now 1 mile ahead of you and 500 feet below" and sure enough there it was. I relayed the direction messages until I was able to report that I had seen the lost aircraft land safely (on a farm strip). By this time transmissions from the aircraft had faded to completely inaudible.
What I want to share are the mistakes I made during this, because they are all easy to spot with hindsight but weren't obvious to me at the time; otherwise I wouldn't have made them!
First mistake was that I was slow to react to the fact that I was proabably 60 knots faster than the other aircraft and I was slow to realise that even with the gear and flaps down I couldn't easily match the speed. To avoid overtaking the other aircraft, I decided to do one orbit which was a big mistake. I nearly lost sight of it doing this. I should have zig- zagged keeping it in view all the time, which I then did.
Second mistake was not writing down every instruction to be relayed before relaying it. At first I just repeated the headings but I got one wrong and had to be corrected by D&D, and worse, may have added to the workload of the lost pilot - and I think he had other difficulties as well. I then did what I should have done to start with and wrote everything down before relaying it. This was lesson number two.
The weather was going downhill quickly now and moments after seeing the aircraft land safely I was back in IMC and climbing at Vx. By now, Birmingham ATIS was down to broken cloud at 300'
and I was hoping to get back there before it got any worse, meaning a diversion. D&D handed me over to Birmingham radar who were superb and Birmingham had held at least two large aircraft at the 15 hold so I could land asap. They were perhaps wondering if I was going to get in without Cat 2 or 3. The approach lights were very welcome that afternoon.
Final point is that D&D do not talk unless absolutely necessary, so during all this there were very long periods of silence. If you call 121.5 make your first transmission brief, even if the frequency is quiet; there still could be an emergency in progress.
About six years ago I was flying IFR from the west country back to Birmingham and getting a radar service from Brize. Wx was rubbish and I had delayed the departure until the Birmingham actuals went sufficiently above minimums to have a high probability of not having to divert.
Everything was wonderful above the clouds until Brize asked me to contact D&D on 121.5. This filled me with horror and I wondered what terrible catastrophe they expected and I wondered why I didn't know I was in trouble. Anyway, it all became clear as soon as I called them and they wanted help in communicating with a lost aircraft somewhere near the Welsh border; they could barely hear him and he seemed to be having difficulty in hearing them.
I remember communication being difficult and I explained that I had over five hours of fuel on board, was there anything else I could do to help?
To cut a long story short, they radar vectored me down to VMC, and radar vectored me right up to the lost aircraft, eventually saying something like "aircraft is now 1 mile ahead of you and 500 feet below" and sure enough there it was. I relayed the direction messages until I was able to report that I had seen the lost aircraft land safely (on a farm strip). By this time transmissions from the aircraft had faded to completely inaudible.
What I want to share are the mistakes I made during this, because they are all easy to spot with hindsight but weren't obvious to me at the time; otherwise I wouldn't have made them!
First mistake was that I was slow to react to the fact that I was proabably 60 knots faster than the other aircraft and I was slow to realise that even with the gear and flaps down I couldn't easily match the speed. To avoid overtaking the other aircraft, I decided to do one orbit which was a big mistake. I nearly lost sight of it doing this. I should have zig- zagged keeping it in view all the time, which I then did.
Second mistake was not writing down every instruction to be relayed before relaying it. At first I just repeated the headings but I got one wrong and had to be corrected by D&D, and worse, may have added to the workload of the lost pilot - and I think he had other difficulties as well. I then did what I should have done to start with and wrote everything down before relaying it. This was lesson number two.
The weather was going downhill quickly now and moments after seeing the aircraft land safely I was back in IMC and climbing at Vx. By now, Birmingham ATIS was down to broken cloud at 300'
and I was hoping to get back there before it got any worse, meaning a diversion. D&D handed me over to Birmingham radar who were superb and Birmingham had held at least two large aircraft at the 15 hold so I could land asap. They were perhaps wondering if I was going to get in without Cat 2 or 3. The approach lights were very welcome that afternoon.
Final point is that D&D do not talk unless absolutely necessary, so during all this there were very long periods of silence. If you call 121.5 make your first transmission brief, even if the frequency is quiet; there still could be an emergency in progress.
Guest
Posts: n/a
In certain areas it's probably fair to say that the radar coverage will be better than that of the VDF.
But the big advantage of the VDF sevice is the ability to zoom in on the digitised maps and give fairly precise info. With the radar the best you'll get is "your position is 4nm north west of XYZ VOR" or similar.
Not bad, but not as good.
WF.
But the big advantage of the VDF sevice is the ability to zoom in on the digitised maps and give fairly precise info. With the radar the best you'll get is "your position is 4nm north west of XYZ VOR" or similar.
Not bad, but not as good.
WF.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting account, QNH1013. I have sometimes wondered how well I would cope in a similar relay situation. I think I would have made the same mistakes (alhough it seems a bit harsh to call them that) as you, plus a few more!
It must have been very satisfying to see the other pilot land safely.
TG
It must have been very satisfying to see the other pilot land safely.
TG
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost?
)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great thread - lots of food for thought - and ultimately very reassuring.
I have only used the service once, for a practice pan and training fix over mid Wales whilst I was doing my training. They were able to accurately pinpoint me as being 2 NM north of Builth Wells - which was spot on.
Professional and polite. The contoller even thanked me for making the call!
Mr. W
I have only used the service once, for a practice pan and training fix over mid Wales whilst I was doing my training. They were able to accurately pinpoint me as being 2 NM north of Builth Wells - which was spot on.
Professional and polite. The contoller even thanked me for making the call!
Mr. W
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only time I have attempted a Practice Pan, D&D were barely audible at 3000ft over Dartmoor. It was only at 3,500 - 4000ft before they became clear enough to understand.
While not always on, my GPS is always in my bag along with a fresh set of double-A's.
While not always on, my GPS is always in my bag along with a fresh set of double-A's.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The moral to this story is:
1) always carry plenty of fuel. The UK is small, and most small aircraft can easily travel half its length on full tanks. You're sure to find an airfield somewhere in there
2) Carry a GPS, even if you only use it for emergency position fixes, which are quite possible with no moving map. Just plot the lat and long on a chart, easy.
3) At least do a bit of pre-flight planning. Work out rough headings and times if you're unfamiliar with your surroundings.
4) Get a bit of instrument experience behind you. You can then take advantage of all the nav aids dotted around the country to position fix, in the unlikely event that GPS goes tits.
5) Fly near the coast If I get lost, I head south and look for the sea, then its pretty easy to find my way home
6) Consider picking up a RIS if you're travelling from A to B. They are normally pretty good at "extra" information (for example "for your info, there is gliding going on at ABCD"). This also gives hints to your position.
I can sympathise with this pilot, reaching 130% workload is not fun, you tend to forget all that you have learned and stress levels rise dramatically. Maybe if we had some sort of "flight following" these stress levels could be reduced dramatically, for example the fear of busting airspace drops, you are already talking to someone, so its not such a big deal to ask your position (no matter how stupid you feel).........
Cheers
EA
1) always carry plenty of fuel. The UK is small, and most small aircraft can easily travel half its length on full tanks. You're sure to find an airfield somewhere in there
2) Carry a GPS, even if you only use it for emergency position fixes, which are quite possible with no moving map. Just plot the lat and long on a chart, easy.
3) At least do a bit of pre-flight planning. Work out rough headings and times if you're unfamiliar with your surroundings.
4) Get a bit of instrument experience behind you. You can then take advantage of all the nav aids dotted around the country to position fix, in the unlikely event that GPS goes tits.
5) Fly near the coast
If I get lost, I head south and look for the sea, then its pretty easy to find my way home 6) Consider picking up a RIS if you're travelling from A to B. They are normally pretty good at "extra" information (for example "for your info, there is gliding going on at ABCD"). This also gives hints to your position.
I can sympathise with this pilot, reaching 130% workload is not fun, you tend to forget all that you have learned and stress levels rise dramatically. Maybe if we had some sort of "flight following" these stress levels could be reduced dramatically, for example the fear of busting airspace drops, you are already talking to someone, so its not such a big deal to ask your position (no matter how stupid you feel).........
Cheers
EA