Flying Instructor - Civilian or Ex Military?
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I've been a civvy all my career, not even in the ATC as a kid. I started with the world's favourite airline as a youngster and Im still there. Light aircraft flying for 30+ years and lots of club instructing over many years. Some display flying though nothing grand and lots of aerobatics though not competion, never appealed to me, not enough time to practice and I don't think I would have been good enough anyway. I've flown light a/c with lots of civvies and quite a few ex RAF pilots.
My advice to anyone wanting a PPL?
Find yourself an ex RAF instructor.
Want to learn aeros and other advanced manouvers?
Find yourself an ex RAF instructor.
You MAY find a civvy instructor who's just as experienced and just as good, but the chances are pretty slim. Most club instructors are low hours, low experience and hours building to get a flying job. There are some fine exceptions who've always been instructors and if you get someone who works as a commercial pilot, not just instructing, you'll probably be alright but it's roulette. If you get an instructor who's RAF Central Flying School trained, then you're almost guaranteed to get a good instructor. I've flown light aircraft with lots of them and they have got a certain quality, no question about it.
Want to train to be a competition aerobatic pilot?
That's different. You need to learn what's required for compettions. Find yourself someone who does well in competitons and it doesn't matter if he's ex RAF or a PPL.
Too many civvy pilots have got chips on their shoulders about ex-RAF pilots, even more if they've flown the fast stuff, and some PPLs who fly old aircraft or competition aeros have got even bigger chips than some airline colleagues I could mention.
Aileron Roll is right about the days when all airline pilots were ex RAF being over. They went years ago when the wartime pilots retired.
Zlin
There's more civvy warbird pilots at Duxford than there used to be but you're overstating it. I don't know too much about the Fighter Collection but the Old Flying Machine Company still has mainly ex-mil pilots. I know four of them aren't, but two of those were taught to fly by their ex-mil fathers. Flying Lawyer doesn't fly with the OFMC any more and he may not "frequent the place" like he used to but he still owns a warbird with Ray Hanna so I doubt if he's as out of touch as you think.
Shuttleworth all Test Pilots? I don't think that's true. eg I don't think Sir John Allison was. FL will probably know because they're friends.
If you can get an ex RAF instructor, you won't go wrong.
Civvy is a gamble. Ex Raf is a racing certainty.
That's my tuppence for what it's worth.
My advice to anyone wanting a PPL?
Find yourself an ex RAF instructor.
Want to learn aeros and other advanced manouvers?
Find yourself an ex RAF instructor.
You MAY find a civvy instructor who's just as experienced and just as good, but the chances are pretty slim. Most club instructors are low hours, low experience and hours building to get a flying job. There are some fine exceptions who've always been instructors and if you get someone who works as a commercial pilot, not just instructing, you'll probably be alright but it's roulette. If you get an instructor who's RAF Central Flying School trained, then you're almost guaranteed to get a good instructor. I've flown light aircraft with lots of them and they have got a certain quality, no question about it.
Want to train to be a competition aerobatic pilot?
That's different. You need to learn what's required for compettions. Find yourself someone who does well in competitons and it doesn't matter if he's ex RAF or a PPL.
Too many civvy pilots have got chips on their shoulders about ex-RAF pilots, even more if they've flown the fast stuff, and some PPLs who fly old aircraft or competition aeros have got even bigger chips than some airline colleagues I could mention.
Aileron Roll is right about the days when all airline pilots were ex RAF being over. They went years ago when the wartime pilots retired.
Zlin
There's more civvy warbird pilots at Duxford than there used to be but you're overstating it. I don't know too much about the Fighter Collection but the Old Flying Machine Company still has mainly ex-mil pilots. I know four of them aren't, but two of those were taught to fly by their ex-mil fathers. Flying Lawyer doesn't fly with the OFMC any more and he may not "frequent the place" like he used to but he still owns a warbird with Ray Hanna so I doubt if he's as out of touch as you think.
Shuttleworth all Test Pilots? I don't think that's true. eg I don't think Sir John Allison was. FL will probably know because they're friends.
If you can get an ex RAF instructor, you won't go wrong.
Civvy is a gamble. Ex Raf is a racing certainty.
That's my tuppence for what it's worth.
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In a talk to the BWPA at Shuttleworth a couple of years ago Andy Cephton said they used only Test Pilots (with very few exceptions) because Test Pilots were familiar with moving from one type of aircraft to another, and were quick to pick up the methods of flying a different aircraft.
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When i was a civilian instructor and we had our first military instructor (who was rotary on £45 an hour and me fixed wing on £8) said "we will will have to get our holiday days sorted out", what days days off i said, you are a civilian instructor now!
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Zlin526's opinion that military pilots are unsuitable for vintage aircraft was bound to challenged with examples from Shuttleworth and Duxford.
The claim that Shuttleworth's mil and ex-mil pilots are all test pilots also seems to have been laid to rest but, for those interested, here it is from the horse's mouth.
Source The article also describes 'unlearning' modern techniques and learning how to handle old aircraft/old engines.
There are fascinating discussions about flying old aircraft in the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum. I recommend looking in to that forum if you haven't already.
Zlin - Agree you're failing miserably. Less convinced you're desperately trying.
Why not start a new discussion on your point in the AH&N forum?
BUT that is not what this thread is about.
Andy Cubin started an interesting topic which I don't remember being discussed before. It would be a shame to be diverted and lose it.
Heliport
Moderator
Those interested in old aeroplanes might want to look at this thread:
Flying WWII aircraft in the 21st C.
The claim that Shuttleworth's mil and ex-mil pilots are all test pilots also seems to have been laid to rest but, for those interested, here it is from the horse's mouth.
"We have an air chief marshal, two Group captains, two chief test pilots, a Gulf War veteran and that's just for starters." - Andy Sephton, Shuttleworth's chief pilot.
There are fascinating discussions about flying old aircraft in the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum. I recommend looking in to that forum if you haven't already.
Zlin - Agree you're failing miserably. Less convinced you're desperately trying.
Why not start a new discussion on your point in the AH&N forum?
BUT that is not what this thread is about.
Andy Cubin started an interesting topic which I don't remember being discussed before. It would be a shame to be diverted and lose it.
Heliport
Moderator
Those interested in old aeroplanes might want to look at this thread:
Flying WWII aircraft in the 21st C.
Last edited by Heliport; 5th Mar 2004 at 15:46.
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An interesting discussion. I have to say that of the two best instructors I have been fortunate to fly with, one was civvy the other was ex-military.
They were totally different in style, but both were vastly experienced which is really the best measure of competence not background.
On the same vein, the two worst instructors I have worked with one was (current) military and the other civvy. The military pilot wasn't bothered about GA and had an ego the size of my overdraft, whilst the civvy was just an awful pilot and terrible communicator, who also had a massive ego and thought he was god's gift despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
If I had a choice between a highly experienced civvy or ex military it would be quite a dilemma and would come down purely to personality, but if the FI was fairly inexperienced then the ex-mil chap would be a shoe in.
They were totally different in style, but both were vastly experienced which is really the best measure of competence not background.
On the same vein, the two worst instructors I have worked with one was (current) military and the other civvy. The military pilot wasn't bothered about GA and had an ego the size of my overdraft, whilst the civvy was just an awful pilot and terrible communicator, who also had a massive ego and thought he was god's gift despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
If I had a choice between a highly experienced civvy or ex military it would be quite a dilemma and would come down purely to personality, but if the FI was fairly inexperienced then the ex-mil chap would be a shoe in.
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There is one set of circumstances in which the civilian instructor may have the edge, and that is when the student is so inept, or has a mental block at some stage in training, that he or she would have washed out of any military programme.
On two occasions I've been asked by ex-military instructors to take over students who just weren't getting it. No amount of instruction, however clear or consistent, was breaking the circle. Both students eventually went on to get their PPL(H)s. One became a very good pilot, the other gave up.
What they needed was a bit of TLC and some Zen. They felt bullied and intimidated and had developed low self-esteem.
I would say that good students benefit from a military approach, but poor students sometimes need an excess of flexibility.
And remember, a good student does not always make a good pilot, nor a poor student a bad one.
On two occasions I've been asked by ex-military instructors to take over students who just weren't getting it. No amount of instruction, however clear or consistent, was breaking the circle. Both students eventually went on to get their PPL(H)s. One became a very good pilot, the other gave up.
What they needed was a bit of TLC and some Zen. They felt bullied and intimidated and had developed low self-esteem.
I would say that good students benefit from a military approach, but poor students sometimes need an excess of flexibility.
And remember, a good student does not always make a good pilot, nor a poor student a bad one.
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Flying Lawyer & BEagle - From my recollections of ULAS, Rick M was a pussy cat - he had a gruff exterior, but underneath he was just great. When I joined, Andy Whittaker was reputed to be a head-banger, but I never received that pleasure from him, although I do remember one or two challenging (a good word for it) debriefs!
The current Shuttleworth pilot team includes 16 pilots, all but one are ex-military, all but three are test pilots.
The current Shuttleworth pilot team includes 16 pilots, all but one are ex-military, all but three are test pilots.
Hi Airbedane! Had a bit of an IT faff, so have been off the air for a few days. All well now, thanks to Sir William Gates and 'system restore' for WinXP.......
As you say, Ricky Mo was a bit of a pussy cat. Perhaps never a rocket scientist; however I do recall him once saying "Disorientation means lack of guts" which seemed to be pretty high grade bull$hit to me!
FL- no, I meant that some old fart regaling tales of derring-do in HMFC to u/t airliner-drivers probably bores them - they just want to know what the thrill of 4 trips from Lootnairpawt to Oybeefa and back in a day ferrying the tattooed, pierced and unwashed dregs of society about is like...
There really is some awful cr@p coming out of FIC schools these days. Thinks like the DRIBL or DABL or whatever that stupid check is which one of them has dreamed up, total misunderstanding of the basics of selecting, holding and trimming attitudes - and a lack of an ability to teach recovering from a stall with minimum height loss. All very basic stuff instilled into an RAF QFI! And please don't talk so much when Bloggs is doing the practice!
Regarding aeros, I had the misfortune to sit through a brief given by one of these 'unlimited' aerobatic people and I personally think that he has a crew loose from all that bizarre high G pulling and pushing. A good flowing aeros sequence is fine - but upward snap whatevers followed by brutal outside 'gosh this hurts but hey I'm cool' things..forget it. Looks awful, probably feels worse. But each to his own!
Graceful low level flypasts around the Old Warden bend - brilliant. But grunting, painful aerobatics in a flying advertising hoarding? Well, that's the time to have lunch or visit the loo for yours truly!
As you say, Ricky Mo was a bit of a pussy cat. Perhaps never a rocket scientist; however I do recall him once saying "Disorientation means lack of guts" which seemed to be pretty high grade bull$hit to me!
FL- no, I meant that some old fart regaling tales of derring-do in HMFC to u/t airliner-drivers probably bores them - they just want to know what the thrill of 4 trips from Lootnairpawt to Oybeefa and back in a day ferrying the tattooed, pierced and unwashed dregs of society about is like...
There really is some awful cr@p coming out of FIC schools these days. Thinks like the DRIBL or DABL or whatever that stupid check is which one of them has dreamed up, total misunderstanding of the basics of selecting, holding and trimming attitudes - and a lack of an ability to teach recovering from a stall with minimum height loss. All very basic stuff instilled into an RAF QFI! And please don't talk so much when Bloggs is doing the practice!
Regarding aeros, I had the misfortune to sit through a brief given by one of these 'unlimited' aerobatic people and I personally think that he has a crew loose from all that bizarre high G pulling and pushing. A good flowing aeros sequence is fine - but upward snap whatevers followed by brutal outside 'gosh this hurts but hey I'm cool' things..forget it. Looks awful, probably feels worse. But each to his own!
Graceful low level flypasts around the Old Warden bend - brilliant. But grunting, painful aerobatics in a flying advertising hoarding? Well, that's the time to have lunch or visit the loo for yours truly!
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BEagle
I was responding to Zlin who seems to have a hang-up about ex-RAF pilots, especially FJ judging by the types he mentioned.
Zlin526
Just out of idle curiosity ... well not entirely 'idle', I do have reasons for asking.
Do you belong to the PFA by any chance?
Tudor
I was responding to Zlin who seems to have a hang-up about ex-RAF pilots, especially FJ judging by the types he mentioned.
Zlin526
Just out of idle curiosity ... well not entirely 'idle', I do have reasons for asking.
Do you belong to the PFA by any chance?
Tudor
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 8th Mar 2004 at 02:25.
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Can't hear too well for the noise of the axes being ground 
I learned to fly at a terrific civvy flying club where the banter between the ex mil and "normal" flyers sometimes degenerated into something a little more aggressive with off the cuff comments being thrown around in front of others, not exactly the most inspiring or edifying sight for a paying student ! In my experience the ex mil flyers were capable of pushing the training envelope a bit further for the student to make his or her own decisions but that was my personal observation at just one club.
Ego ! I'm sure it's why we all fly of course, but I am constantly aware of the sheer professionalism of fixed wing and rotary pilots of all hues who stay in flying for the love of it (certainly not the money huh ?) and the ex mil ones might just exude a little more "attitude" under certain circumstances than most flyers from a civvy background. Mind you, I've met some plonkers from both
Let's face it, nobody teaching flying is going to make any money and they are obviously in it for other (more altruistic???) motives, aren't they ?
When we are up there, we are all on the same team, right ?
I learned to fly at a terrific civvy flying club where the banter between the ex mil and "normal" flyers sometimes degenerated into something a little more aggressive with off the cuff comments being thrown around in front of others, not exactly the most inspiring or edifying sight for a paying student ! In my experience the ex mil flyers were capable of pushing the training envelope a bit further for the student to make his or her own decisions but that was my personal observation at just one club.
Ego ! I'm sure it's why we all fly of course, but I am constantly aware of the sheer professionalism of fixed wing and rotary pilots of all hues who stay in flying for the love of it (certainly not the money huh ?) and the ex mil ones might just exude a little more "attitude" under certain circumstances than most flyers from a civvy background. Mind you, I've met some plonkers from both
Let's face it, nobody teaching flying is going to make any money and they are obviously in it for other (more altruistic???) motives, aren't they ?
When we are up there, we are all on the same team, right ?
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The informed opinion is that there are good and bad from both civvie and ex-military. Horses for courses sometimes.
However the biggest irony with the civilian instructor is that it is generally the only job a newly qualified CPL can get, so he/she goes into instructing not because they want to but as a means to an end, an airline job. Would that the system be better, in that it encouraged and rewarded the mature pilot who actually wants to instruct. But as has been seen in various magazines etc, it is being made more difficult and expensive for the mature infrequent instructor to keep their ratings, so they are drifting away and a valuable asset is being lost to instructing.
Its the system that forces unwilling instructors into the only job they can get that is wrong.
However the biggest irony with the civilian instructor is that it is generally the only job a newly qualified CPL can get, so he/she goes into instructing not because they want to but as a means to an end, an airline job. Would that the system be better, in that it encouraged and rewarded the mature pilot who actually wants to instruct. But as has been seen in various magazines etc, it is being made more difficult and expensive for the mature infrequent instructor to keep their ratings, so they are drifting away and a valuable asset is being lost to instructing.
Its the system that forces unwilling instructors into the only job they can get that is wrong.
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As risk of going off the subject just abit... is it true that every Red Arrows pilot has a standing invitation to join Cathay Pacific at the end of his service..............
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After years having received instruction and a couple giving, I reckon that I can tell the origin of the guy I'm flying with within a few minutes. Not just military or civvy, but which of the 3 services the ex military guys come from.
RAF - Excellent, but tend to be authoritarian and are very much by the book
Army - Far more practical and more relaxed than the ex RAF.
Navy - A cross between the two above
Civvy - Variable, but always more compasionate and patient than ex mil types
The most important bit is the relationship that you have with your instructor. If you get on as people, it doesn't matter where your instructor came from.
My favourite? - Definitely ex army. They teach you the book and then teach the sequel that has yet to be written. Aviation is just too complicated to condense into words.
RAF - Excellent, but tend to be authoritarian and are very much by the book
Army - Far more practical and more relaxed than the ex RAF.
Navy - A cross between the two above
Civvy - Variable, but always more compasionate and patient than ex mil types
The most important bit is the relationship that you have with your instructor. If you get on as people, it doesn't matter where your instructor came from.
My favourite? - Definitely ex army. They teach you the book and then teach the sequel that has yet to be written. Aviation is just too complicated to condense into words.
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Afew years ago after gaining approval to conduct PPL Renewals I was tasked with flying with a current military A1 CFS chap (who also led the current aerobatic team).
To cut a long story short I learnt more in that 1 hour flying than probably any other. He showed me how to teach my max rates just right, and had a great intro to low level flying military style. Over to many cups of coffee some great discusion also on intructional technique. At the time I was working on a low level aero's approval. He had me sit through the ground stuff he gave the next Instructors Course .
Both him and all the military guys I have meet have always been very keen to share their knowledge, and go out of their way to help out.
Would be nice to get perhaps regular mixed siminars on this sort of thing........... I for one am always ready to listen to someone else............. anyone else feel the same ?
To cut a long story short I learnt more in that 1 hour flying than probably any other. He showed me how to teach my max rates just right, and had a great intro to low level flying military style. Over to many cups of coffee some great discusion also on intructional technique. At the time I was working on a low level aero's approval. He had me sit through the ground stuff he gave the next Instructors Course .
Both him and all the military guys I have meet have always been very keen to share their knowledge, and go out of their way to help out.
Would be nice to get perhaps regular mixed siminars on this sort of thing........... I for one am always ready to listen to someone else............. anyone else feel the same ?
Aileron Roll,
Cubes could tell you for certain but I am fairly certain that there is no standing invitation from Cathay for ex-Reds.
Cubes could tell you for certain but I am fairly certain that there is no standing invitation from Cathay for ex-Reds.
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what a response!
A thousand thanks to all of you for responding and for the 1000+ readership.
My h'pennyworth:
1. Cathay do not auto invite ex Reds - I failed to get in!
2. True - the RAF do not teach gyroscopic manoeuvres or other advanced aerobatics, but that does not mean that my fellow ex`RAF instructors (some of whom have significant competition experience) or I have not gone away and acquired the necessary knowledge. The Cassidy's of this world command my highest respect and are the authority on the subject. Indeed I have studied these men and their words very closely, but they do not hold the monopoly on the instruction of these manoeuvres.
3. I have been taught by both civvy and RAF instructors and, has been expressed, you can find dogsh**t on both sides of the fence. For amusement, the worst instructor of my life was a civvy, who was an arrogant bully - revenge was sweet (with his wife!), but there were a number of RAF instructors who came close to this idiot.
4. The lesson I learnt from it all, 20 - odd years down the line, is compassion for your fellow pilot. Don't really like the word student - fellow aviator with a bit less experience suits me better. Always happy to lend an ear to the most inexperienced of fellow pilots - I was one once and they still don't half teach me a thing or two!
ANDY CUBIN
My h'pennyworth:
1. Cathay do not auto invite ex Reds - I failed to get in!
2. True - the RAF do not teach gyroscopic manoeuvres or other advanced aerobatics, but that does not mean that my fellow ex`RAF instructors (some of whom have significant competition experience) or I have not gone away and acquired the necessary knowledge. The Cassidy's of this world command my highest respect and are the authority on the subject. Indeed I have studied these men and their words very closely, but they do not hold the monopoly on the instruction of these manoeuvres.
3. I have been taught by both civvy and RAF instructors and, has been expressed, you can find dogsh**t on both sides of the fence. For amusement, the worst instructor of my life was a civvy, who was an arrogant bully - revenge was sweet (with his wife!), but there were a number of RAF instructors who came close to this idiot.
4. The lesson I learnt from it all, 20 - odd years down the line, is compassion for your fellow pilot. Don't really like the word student - fellow aviator with a bit less experience suits me better. Always happy to lend an ear to the most inexperienced of fellow pilots - I was one once and they still don't half teach me a thing or two!
ANDY CUBIN
Cubes,
I hope point 3 wasn't a secret. If it was, your cover is blown!
I hope point 3 wasn't a secret. If it was, your cover is blown!
Notwithstanding how much of a bully he might have been, to extract revenge in the way you intimate was thoroughly reprehensible. Frankly I am appalled.
