C of A renewal. How much?
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From: surrey
C of A renewal. How much?
I have been looking around for a share recently (my first) and find myself on the steep "how to buy an aircraft" learning curve.
One thing I am finding - and it is fairly obvious really - is that shares in aircraft with a C of A expiry approaching tend to be cheaper than those with a recent renewal even if there is a cash fund to (allegedly) cover the expense.
So my question is, how much should one expect a C of A on a simple spamcan to cost (e.g. C152), assuming that no major problems are discovered. Also, how long does it take? One of my posibilities has C of A due in June, which strikes me as lousy timing if it is going to take more than a week (I'm thinking it is more like a month?).
I know that this is a "how long is a piece of string" type question, but any guidance would be welcomed.
Ta.
TallGuy.
One thing I am finding - and it is fairly obvious really - is that shares in aircraft with a C of A expiry approaching tend to be cheaper than those with a recent renewal even if there is a cash fund to (allegedly) cover the expense.
So my question is, how much should one expect a C of A on a simple spamcan to cost (e.g. C152), assuming that no major problems are discovered. Also, how long does it take? One of my posibilities has C of A due in June, which strikes me as lousy timing if it is going to take more than a week (I'm thinking it is more like a month?).
I know that this is a "how long is a piece of string" type question, but any guidance would be welcomed.
Ta.
TallGuy.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
A CofA itself doesn't cost that much - it is what you have to do to the plane to get the CofA Annual (Star annual) done that could be anything from the basic cost of the Star Annual, perhaps £1500, all the way to 5 figures.
There is an obvious problem buying someone's share in a syndicate, if the previous person managed to jump ship just before the huge bill materialises. Also the remaining members may not want to talk too much about any problems, especially if the departing member was causing trouble and they are keen to get him replaced. I've seen this when looking a couple of years ago.
I wonder how many new syndicate members get an inspection done before they buy?
There is an obvious problem buying someone's share in a syndicate, if the previous person managed to jump ship just before the huge bill materialises. Also the remaining members may not want to talk too much about any problems, especially if the departing member was causing trouble and they are keen to get him replaced. I've seen this when looking a couple of years ago.
I wonder how many new syndicate members get an inspection done before they buy?
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
My last CofA on a 152 cost a fraction under £4k including VAT. The actual cost of the inspection was £650, then there was 400 odd to the CAA for the pleasure of the paperwork, then the usual bits that needed repalcing like tires and brake pads. There was the cost of things like crankshaft inspections, propellor inspections, magnetos 500hr overhaul etc.
It soon adds up!
It soon adds up!
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
How much is a C of A ?
Your best bet would be to speak to the engineer who maintains the a/c and ask him to give you an honest appraisal of anything that is up and coming on the a/c. He knows you will be the one asking him questions if he hides something from you and you will get an honest answer from him.
I have never been a part of a group and have been fortunate to be able to be a sole owner. The one thing that would concern me about a group is the integrity when it comes to major maintenance and an obvious "desperateness" to get you to buy in. Therefore it is up to you to do your homework.
Ideally you want to get involved in a group with an a/c that has low(ish) engine hours, functioning avionics fit and a good safe history.
Personally I think the 152 is a brilliant a/c. It's not perfect at anything but can do everything quite well. Too many a/c (like cars I suppose) excel in one department but disappoint in another. By buying a share in a 152 you will be limiting your risk somewhat due to their robustness.
I would say a "normal" C of A will be in the £1300 to £1800 bracket. It should not normally take more than two weeks but this depends very much on how many a/c are queued up when you drop yours off!
Good luck.....
Your best bet would be to speak to the engineer who maintains the a/c and ask him to give you an honest appraisal of anything that is up and coming on the a/c. He knows you will be the one asking him questions if he hides something from you and you will get an honest answer from him.
I have never been a part of a group and have been fortunate to be able to be a sole owner. The one thing that would concern me about a group is the integrity when it comes to major maintenance and an obvious "desperateness" to get you to buy in. Therefore it is up to you to do your homework.
Ideally you want to get involved in a group with an a/c that has low(ish) engine hours, functioning avionics fit and a good safe history.
Personally I think the 152 is a brilliant a/c. It's not perfect at anything but can do everything quite well. Too many a/c (like cars I suppose) excel in one department but disappoint in another. By buying a share in a 152 you will be limiting your risk somewhat due to their robustness.
I would say a "normal" C of A will be in the £1300 to £1800 bracket. It should not normally take more than two weeks but this depends very much on how many a/c are queued up when you drop yours off!
Good luck.....
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Tall_guy,
Don't buy against the possibility that the star annual will be OK. You just cannot dream of the things that crop up and require a thou here and a few thou there. It was stressful enough buying into a sound share...I can tell you!
BTW, I got mine inspected for about £40, an essential first line of defence. The Start Annual actually pulls the aircraft to pieces to see what's been going on inside for the last three years.
Happy hunting,
HWD.
Don't buy against the possibility that the star annual will be OK. You just cannot dream of the things that crop up and require a thou here and a few thou there. It was stressful enough buying into a sound share...I can tell you!
BTW, I got mine inspected for about £40, an essential first line of defence. The Start Annual actually pulls the aircraft to pieces to see what's been going on inside for the last three years.
Happy hunting,
HWD.
).Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I've never actually bought into a syndicate - never found a plane suitable for IFR where I am based - and eventually bought my own.
But I looked at enough to realise that the people in the group (their attitudes to honesty, maintenance and the depth of their pockets) are just as important as the plane.
If you buy into a share for say £3k and £50/month then your liability is limited to the £3k and to £50/month for as long as you are trying to offload your unwanted share.
I've been in business for 25+ years but have met more sharp people that hang out around GA in the last 3 than in the previous 25, so one has to be very careful indeed, and this includes people in GA engineering, instructors, you name it. There is a great deal to learn and it never stops. And that's just the stuff on the ground
But I looked at enough to realise that the people in the group (their attitudes to honesty, maintenance and the depth of their pockets) are just as important as the plane.
If you buy into a share for say £3k and £50/month then your liability is limited to the £3k and to £50/month for as long as you are trying to offload your unwanted share.
I've been in business for 25+ years but have met more sharp people that hang out around GA in the last 3 than in the previous 25, so one has to be very careful indeed, and this includes people in GA engineering, instructors, you name it. There is a great deal to learn and it never stops. And that's just the stuff on the ground
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: UK
Tall_guy....
Monocock's info hit's the nail on the head. I have a 150:
C of A - labour £700 with parts £1200-1500 (no serious work).
Every year you need a check, thats around £1k.
What ever anybody says about the Cessna 150/152, there are plenty around all I will say "Ford Fiesta of the sky...". Not the most flash but: usually not the most expensive to run, fix or find parts for........ From my experience it's getting parts that will keep you on the ground the longest.
Your welcome to PM me for more info.
Monocock's info hit's the nail on the head. I have a 150:
C of A - labour £700 with parts £1200-1500 (no serious work).
Every year you need a check, thats around £1k.
What ever anybody says about the Cessna 150/152, there are plenty around all I will say "Ford Fiesta of the sky...". Not the most flash but: usually not the most expensive to run, fix or find parts for........ From my experience it's getting parts that will keep you on the ground the longest.
Your welcome to PM me for more info.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Bristol and Forest of Dean
Cheekily jumpimg in on the back of this thread...!
I'm planning on bringing a couple of 150's in from the states - does anyone have experience of putting one of these A/C on the UK reg - obviously they'll need a star annual for the initial C of A, but is there anything I should watch out for...? The other option is to operate them on an 'N' reg over here - has anyone had experience of this? Any information would be good.
TIA chaps
Kingy (new to this stuff being a PFA bloke...!)
I'm planning on bringing a couple of 150's in from the states - does anyone have experience of putting one of these A/C on the UK reg - obviously they'll need a star annual for the initial C of A, but is there anything I should watch out for...? The other option is to operate them on an 'N' reg over here - has anyone had experience of this? Any information would be good.
TIA chaps
Kingy (new to this stuff being a PFA bloke...!)
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: UK
Just a couple of pointers:
1. Star Annual inspection (CofA renewal) is every three years but is in effect an Annual with extra paperwork (for the CAA) and a flight test (for the CAA) and extra cost (to the CAA - for the CofA renewal). No more bits come off an aeroplane for a Star Annual than an Annual.
2. Crankshaft AD is a CAA AAD for fixed pitch prop engines over a certain age requiring the inside of the front end of the crankshaft to be inspected for corrosion.
3. McCauley broke the blank for the C152 props so the only source is now Sensenich. They do climb, standard and cruise pitch props and may not yet be cleared to be fitted to an Aerobat.
4. Do not rely on a £40 pre-purchase survey to find all the faults on an aircraft. To do that would require the engineer to carry out at least an Annual inspection and an airtest - probably amounting to a tad more than £40! Most people think they will have some comeback on the engineer if he misses something so many engineers don't so pre-purchase surveys!
1. Star Annual inspection (CofA renewal) is every three years but is in effect an Annual with extra paperwork (for the CAA) and a flight test (for the CAA) and extra cost (to the CAA - for the CofA renewal). No more bits come off an aeroplane for a Star Annual than an Annual.
2. Crankshaft AD is a CAA AAD for fixed pitch prop engines over a certain age requiring the inside of the front end of the crankshaft to be inspected for corrosion.
3. McCauley broke the blank for the C152 props so the only source is now Sensenich. They do climb, standard and cruise pitch props and may not yet be cleared to be fitted to an Aerobat.
4. Do not rely on a £40 pre-purchase survey to find all the faults on an aircraft. To do that would require the engineer to carry out at least an Annual inspection and an airtest - probably amounting to a tad more than £40! Most people think they will have some comeback on the engineer if he misses something so many engineers don't so pre-purchase surveys!
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
You can still get a Macauley prop for a 152, they are actually been made by sensenich and badged by Mcauley. Sensenich are now the reccomended propellor by Cessna and the improvement in performance is extraordinary.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: UK
watch it tho coz the CAA renewal fees are going up from around £400 to around £1000
in the case of an aircraft, other than a glider, a balloon, a helicopter or a
powered lift (tilt rotor) aircraft, having a maximum weight not exceeding
2,730 kg, a charge of £109 in respect of each 500 kg, or part thereof, of the
maximum weight of the aircraft plus a charge of £70 in respect of each 500 kg
or part thereof, of the maximum weight of the aircraft for each complete year
of validity applied for in respect of the Certificate; or
All found Here OR5 No. 196
in the case of an aircraft, other than a glider, a balloon, a helicopter or a
powered lift (tilt rotor) aircraft, having a maximum weight not exceeding
2,730 kg, a charge of £109 in respect of each 500 kg, or part thereof, of the
maximum weight of the aircraft plus a charge of £70 in respect of each 500 kg
or part thereof, of the maximum weight of the aircraft for each complete year
of validity applied for in respect of the Certificate; or
All found Here OR5 No. 196
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Ashwell, U.K.
Thanks for the heads-up on the revised CAA charges. However I don't think it's quite as bad as it sounds. If you read further on under Renewal of C of A , it appears that it will be around £400 for a sub-1000 kg aircraft. This is an increase but not as bad as the figure you quote which I presume is for initial issue of the C of A. I'm still not sure what I get for the money but that's a different story.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Evidently the ~ £50k p.a. average CAA staff salary is too low.
On page 12 of that PDF, it suggests that the renewal CofA is cheaper if certain maintenance is in operation:
Provided that the charge specified in sub-paragraph 3.3 b) above shall be reduced to £142 and the charge specified in sub-paragraph c) above shall be reduced to £70 in respect of each 500 kg, or part thereof, of the maximum weight of the aircraft for each complete year of validity applied for in respect of the Certificate if:
i) the Certificate of Airworthiness in relation to which the application for renewal is made is subject to the condition that the aircraft is maintained in accordance with a maintenance schedule; and
ii) the applicant furnishes to the CAA or indicates to the CAA his intention to furnish a report made and signed by a person approved by the CAA for the purposes of Group M3 as described in Chapter A8–15 being a report which contains the results of a check known as the ‘Star Inspection’ on the aircraft.
Does anyone know what this means? You have to have a Star Annual when renewing the CofA anyway.
On page 12 of that PDF, it suggests that the renewal CofA is cheaper if certain maintenance is in operation:
Provided that the charge specified in sub-paragraph 3.3 b) above shall be reduced to £142 and the charge specified in sub-paragraph c) above shall be reduced to £70 in respect of each 500 kg, or part thereof, of the maximum weight of the aircraft for each complete year of validity applied for in respect of the Certificate if:
i) the Certificate of Airworthiness in relation to which the application for renewal is made is subject to the condition that the aircraft is maintained in accordance with a maintenance schedule; and
ii) the applicant furnishes to the CAA or indicates to the CAA his intention to furnish a report made and signed by a person approved by the CAA for the purposes of Group M3 as described in Chapter A8–15 being a report which contains the results of a check known as the ‘Star Inspection’ on the aircraft.
Does anyone know what this means? You have to have a Star Annual when renewing the CofA anyway.
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: uk
We charge £1275 for a C of A renewal on a single with fixed gear and fixed prop and £1425 for a single with retractable gear and a constant speed prop.Twins are a bit more.Most AD are included.No VAT charged.We can also put most aircraft on the UK reg.
If any one is intrested or need some advice check us out on www.mdaeroservices.com or phone us on 01487 831950.
146fixer
If any one is intrested or need some advice check us out on www.mdaeroservices.com or phone us on 01487 831950.
146fixer
