A question for the tailwheel boys...
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
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From: Vancouver Island
Interesting how these discussions go, there will be as many opinions as posters and usually we end up right back where we came into the discussion....we each do what we were first taught and what we " think " is the best method.
Normally when someone poses a question in this group they will be referring to aircraft that are common to general aviation and therefore very simple straightfoward aircraft...for instance I doubt many here will be anguishing over how best to land a Spitfire.
Now I of course also mentioned airplanes that most here will never fly so I guess we all wander all over the place in these discussions.
One last comment on unusual tailwheel flying machines, I can't recall ever having an uncontrollable urge to wheel a Siskorsky S61 on, it seems to three point quite nicely.
Anyhow I find that making them high speed taxi tail in the air then full stop and turn around and do it in the other direction until they are in full control of the beast works best for me when doing check outs, ain't lost one yet.
A couple of questions for Airbedane...
Were the Ansons you flew those abortions with vaccum over hydraulic brakes?
And why did you not three point the Beech 18?
Chuck
Normally when someone poses a question in this group they will be referring to aircraft that are common to general aviation and therefore very simple straightfoward aircraft...for instance I doubt many here will be anguishing over how best to land a Spitfire.
Now I of course also mentioned airplanes that most here will never fly so I guess we all wander all over the place in these discussions.
One last comment on unusual tailwheel flying machines, I can't recall ever having an uncontrollable urge to wheel a Siskorsky S61 on, it seems to three point quite nicely.
Anyhow I find that making them high speed taxi tail in the air then full stop and turn around and do it in the other direction until they are in full control of the beast works best for me when doing check outs, ain't lost one yet.
A couple of questions for Airbedane...
Were the Ansons you flew those abortions with vaccum over hydraulic brakes?
And why did you not three point the Beech 18?
Chuck
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
From: Biggleswade
Chuck,
I seem to remember that the Anson I flew had pneumatic brakes, but I didn't get much time on it and I haven't flown it for 18 months - I hope to change that statement in the Spring of this year.
I haven't got much time on the Beach 18 either, but I certainly enjoyed the few hours I did get. The owner taught me to fly it and requested I did wheeler landings. It's his machine, he called the shots, so that's what I did. I have to say, it was a bit squirley, but I didn't experience any major heartache with it. The T6, on the other hand, produced some interesting experiences, but only when I wheeled it on. After changing to three-pointers, I didn't have any more trouble with it.
You're right when you say that it's each to his own when landing tailwheel aircraft. Personally, I would never even consider doing wheels up runs with an acceleration and deceleration in the same run. The change in control input from high power to low, and the change in torque from the engine would, in my opinion, give too high a risk of ground loop. At least one historic was damaged in the eighties doing the same thing. However, that said, if it works for you, then good luck to you.
If there was only one solution to the taildrager problem, then we'd all use it. The message to take away is to assess all the methods available, then do whatever works for you.
Airbedane.
I seem to remember that the Anson I flew had pneumatic brakes, but I didn't get much time on it and I haven't flown it for 18 months - I hope to change that statement in the Spring of this year.
I haven't got much time on the Beach 18 either, but I certainly enjoyed the few hours I did get. The owner taught me to fly it and requested I did wheeler landings. It's his machine, he called the shots, so that's what I did. I have to say, it was a bit squirley, but I didn't experience any major heartache with it. The T6, on the other hand, produced some interesting experiences, but only when I wheeled it on. After changing to three-pointers, I didn't have any more trouble with it.
You're right when you say that it's each to his own when landing tailwheel aircraft. Personally, I would never even consider doing wheels up runs with an acceleration and deceleration in the same run. The change in control input from high power to low, and the change in torque from the engine would, in my opinion, give too high a risk of ground loop. At least one historic was damaged in the eighties doing the same thing. However, that said, if it works for you, then good luck to you.
If there was only one solution to the taildrager problem, then we'd all use it. The message to take away is to assess all the methods available, then do whatever works for you.
Airbedane.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
From: The Heart
Chuck,
There's no reason for everything to go pear-shaped in the flare to a three pointer in a crosswind. If you're very close to full rudder in the flare and not going in the right direction, you go around.
I don't really think this phase is the problem. The problems tend to come lower than flying speed but higher then taxi speed, just about when the tail comes down. You've no way out. Can't get airborne again and can't stop quickly enough.
I can understand where you say you find your technique to be the best for the students and can see the benefits, surely you're not speaking for your students? That none of them have ever lost control on landing after they left you?
Just to point out that I didn't say some couldn't be wheeled on; just that they don't lend themselves to the technique.
There's no reason for everything to go pear-shaped in the flare to a three pointer in a crosswind. If you're very close to full rudder in the flare and not going in the right direction, you go around.
I don't really think this phase is the problem. The problems tend to come lower than flying speed but higher then taxi speed, just about when the tail comes down. You've no way out. Can't get airborne again and can't stop quickly enough.
I can understand where you say you find your technique to be the best for the students and can see the benefits, surely you're not speaking for your students? That none of them have ever lost control on landing after they left you?
Just to point out that I didn't say some couldn't be wheeled on; just that they don't lend themselves to the technique.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Airbedane :
With all due respect to your comments, regarding teaching directional control on the runway when checking out pilots without tailwheel experience, may I comment on the issues you brought up?
I teach directional control on the ground first for the very reasons you described, the need to recognize and control the directional excursions inherrent in tailwheel aircraft when accelerating and changing pitch attitude at high power as well as decellerating and changing pitch attitude with low power.
I work under the theory that when I train someone to fly a tailwheel airplane they are trained to keep the thing straight on the runway under all speed, power and acceptable for the aircraft wind condition senarios.
How could I turn someone loose to fly tailwheel aircraft knowing that I did not ensure they could in fact recognize and control directional excursions caused by accelerating and changing pitch attitude from the three point attitude to tail in the air for take off not to mention they have to reverse this procedure when they land.
I have been using this method of teaching for decades and to date to the best of my knowledge none of my students have ground looped one, and for sure I do not allow them to ground loop during training.
I guess what I am striving to explain here is I have a requirement that the student must be able to control the airplane or I will not sign them off.....
And you know something, by ensuring they actually can control the damn thing on the runway before we go flying it produces very competent tail wheel pilots. At least for me it does.
But we all have our own little preferences, that makes for good debate.
I flew Beech 18's for years and my reason for not three pointing the things was the blanking of the rudders by the flaps in the three point attitude, better to make sure the thing was still going straight before lowering the tail onto the runway... other that that it was a pussy cat to handle.
Now the Turbo Goose that was another kind of a cat to keep straight.
Chuck
Miserlou :
As far as I know none of my students have groundlooped one after they went on their own, but that of course does not mean that they didn't.
I personally have never ground looped one in over ten thousand hours of flying tail wheel machines, but I could go out to the airport and ground loop the next one I fly... I do however believe that being as competent as possible and understanding not only the airplanes limits, but your own limits, lessens the risk.
Also I agree that some airplanes may not lend themselves to wheel landings, what I have stated is I have not flown one yet.
And once again may I stress my comments are 100% my own thoughts, experience and feelings on these subjects.
If any method of controlling the machine works for you then that is the correct way for you to do it.
Chuck
With all due respect to your comments, regarding teaching directional control on the runway when checking out pilots without tailwheel experience, may I comment on the issues you brought up?
I teach directional control on the ground first for the very reasons you described, the need to recognize and control the directional excursions inherrent in tailwheel aircraft when accelerating and changing pitch attitude at high power as well as decellerating and changing pitch attitude with low power.
I work under the theory that when I train someone to fly a tailwheel airplane they are trained to keep the thing straight on the runway under all speed, power and acceptable for the aircraft wind condition senarios.
How could I turn someone loose to fly tailwheel aircraft knowing that I did not ensure they could in fact recognize and control directional excursions caused by accelerating and changing pitch attitude from the three point attitude to tail in the air for take off not to mention they have to reverse this procedure when they land.
I have been using this method of teaching for decades and to date to the best of my knowledge none of my students have ground looped one, and for sure I do not allow them to ground loop during training.
I guess what I am striving to explain here is I have a requirement that the student must be able to control the airplane or I will not sign them off.....
And you know something, by ensuring they actually can control the damn thing on the runway before we go flying it produces very competent tail wheel pilots. At least for me it does.
But we all have our own little preferences, that makes for good debate.
I flew Beech 18's for years and my reason for not three pointing the things was the blanking of the rudders by the flaps in the three point attitude, better to make sure the thing was still going straight before lowering the tail onto the runway... other that that it was a pussy cat to handle.
Now the Turbo Goose that was another kind of a cat to keep straight.
Chuck
Miserlou :
As far as I know none of my students have groundlooped one after they went on their own, but that of course does not mean that they didn't.
I personally have never ground looped one in over ten thousand hours of flying tail wheel machines, but I could go out to the airport and ground loop the next one I fly... I do however believe that being as competent as possible and understanding not only the airplanes limits, but your own limits, lessens the risk.
Also I agree that some airplanes may not lend themselves to wheel landings, what I have stated is I have not flown one yet.
And once again may I stress my comments are 100% my own thoughts, experience and feelings on these subjects.
If any method of controlling the machine works for you then that is the correct way for you to do it.
Chuck
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
From: Biggleswade
My comments on running down the runway with the tail up were not meant as criticsm, Chuck, just a statement that it's not something I would do. I believe the risks of a groundloop are too high for the reasons given. I prefer to teach the exercise in two parts, one prior to take off, the other after landing. But if it works for you, then that's just fine. I do strongly agree, however, that lots of taxying is necessary prior to the exercise to get the student's feet attuned to the task.
As said, if there was only one way to safely fly a tailwheel aeroplane, then that's the way we'd all use!
Which aircraft are you teaching on, Chuck?
All the Best,
A
As said, if there was only one way to safely fly a tailwheel aeroplane, then that's the way we'd all use!
Which aircraft are you teaching on, Chuck?
All the Best,
A
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Airbedane :
No offence taken, I understand exactly what you mean...
We all have formed our own comfort zone and methods for teaching, I learned mine from an old Crop duster many centuries ago when he chose me to teach aerial application and a course called " High Command Control " which simply was learning to fly at the limits of the airplane....
So not knowing any better I just assumed that was the only way to teach...and I'm just to old now to change my habits.
The Airplane I use for training tailwheel pilots right now is the one on my web site.
www.chuckellsworth.com
By the way I'm selling it because I have decided to quit training and spend more time doing something other than fu..ing around airports.
Anyhow this has been a very good exchange of ideas and information.
Flying Dutch:
Did you PM me some time ago?
I had a computer melt down and lost a lot of my data.
Chuck
No offence taken, I understand exactly what you mean...
We all have formed our own comfort zone and methods for teaching, I learned mine from an old Crop duster many centuries ago when he chose me to teach aerial application and a course called " High Command Control " which simply was learning to fly at the limits of the airplane....
So not knowing any better I just assumed that was the only way to teach...and I'm just to old now to change my habits.
The Airplane I use for training tailwheel pilots right now is the one on my web site.
www.chuckellsworth.com
By the way I'm selling it because I have decided to quit training and spend more time doing something other than fu..ing around airports.
Anyhow this has been a very good exchange of ideas and information.
Flying Dutch:
Did you PM me some time ago?
I had a computer melt down and lost a lot of my data.
Chuck
