NPPL Medical
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have the refs but I hear from 50+ FAA PPL pilots that there is no ECG and no audiogram.
The Americans seem to have uncovered a closely guarded secret... very few private pilots get incapacitated, and the very few that do (in the USA which has about 10x more private pilots than the rest of the world put together) they tend to crash into nothing particular.
The Americans seem to have uncovered a closely guarded secret... very few private pilots get incapacitated, and the very few that do (in the USA which has about 10x more private pilots than the rest of the world put together) they tend to crash into nothing particular.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that the difference between the JAA medical and the NPPL "Medical Declaration" is that the JAA medical meets ICAO requirements and thus pilots who hold such a medical can fly outside the UK because the CAA has met it's obligations under ICAO.
With the NPPL, it does not meet ICAO requirements and consequently is restricted to the UK unless permission is obtained from another State. (The CAA can do what it wants in it's own back yard.)
What I would like to know is if the JAA Medical has certain standards which are required to meet ICAO requirements how can the FAA medical meet ICAO requirements with lower standards?
Is the FAA medical in compliance with ICAO requirements and if not - should it not be restricted to the USA?
Personally, I mostly agree with Cathar - if one fails a medical in the UK then that is a clear and unambigous message that there is a reason for not flying until something is done.
Isn't there a requirement to declare on any medical application if an aplication for a medical or licence has ever been refused.
Perhaps an AME could confirm this but as far as I am aware, if one was to declare on an FAA medical application that the CAA refused to issue a medical then the FAA would ask the CAA why before issuing an FAA medical.
What must be remembered is that failing an ECG can have consequences. It could be something simple and not going to cause any problems or it could be that your heart is shot to hell and you are about to check out.
That is why I say that if one fails an ECG on a JAA medical then one can not moraly or legally continue to fly on an FAA medical unless the ECG failure has been disclosed to the FAA and the FAA give a clear indication that having considered the full facts, they are still happy that you are fit to hold an FAA medical.
If having failed an ECG one wished to obtain and continue to fly on an NPPL then the Declaration would only be true if the ECG failure was disclosed to the Doctor and the Doctor told the pilot that it wasn't a problem - unlikely IMHO without further investigation.
If I was an insurance loss adjuster, an undisclosed failure of an ECG would make my day if you claimed after an accident! That also applies to your personal insurance!!!!
The choices as far as I see it are;
Do the JAA medical if you wish to fly outside the UK.; or
Do the FAA medical if you want to fly aircraft not allowed by the NPPL within the UK; or
Do the NPPL medical if you wnt to fly those aircraft types within the UK.
Regards,
DFC
With the NPPL, it does not meet ICAO requirements and consequently is restricted to the UK unless permission is obtained from another State. (The CAA can do what it wants in it's own back yard.)
What I would like to know is if the JAA Medical has certain standards which are required to meet ICAO requirements how can the FAA medical meet ICAO requirements with lower standards?
Is the FAA medical in compliance with ICAO requirements and if not - should it not be restricted to the USA?
Personally, I mostly agree with Cathar - if one fails a medical in the UK then that is a clear and unambigous message that there is a reason for not flying until something is done.
Isn't there a requirement to declare on any medical application if an aplication for a medical or licence has ever been refused.
Perhaps an AME could confirm this but as far as I am aware, if one was to declare on an FAA medical application that the CAA refused to issue a medical then the FAA would ask the CAA why before issuing an FAA medical.
What must be remembered is that failing an ECG can have consequences. It could be something simple and not going to cause any problems or it could be that your heart is shot to hell and you are about to check out.
That is why I say that if one fails an ECG on a JAA medical then one can not moraly or legally continue to fly on an FAA medical unless the ECG failure has been disclosed to the FAA and the FAA give a clear indication that having considered the full facts, they are still happy that you are fit to hold an FAA medical.
If having failed an ECG one wished to obtain and continue to fly on an NPPL then the Declaration would only be true if the ECG failure was disclosed to the Doctor and the Doctor told the pilot that it wasn't a problem - unlikely IMHO without further investigation.
If I was an insurance loss adjuster, an undisclosed failure of an ECG would make my day if you claimed after an accident! That also applies to your personal insurance!!!!
The choices as far as I see it are;
Do the JAA medical if you wish to fly outside the UK.; or
Do the FAA medical if you want to fly aircraft not allowed by the NPPL within the UK; or
Do the NPPL medical if you wnt to fly those aircraft types within the UK.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"JAR-FCL 3 is based on the ICAO Standards and Recommended Practices - Annex 1 - Personnel Licensing. JAR-FCL 3 was agreed amongst the JAA member states in a series of meetings throughout the 1990s. This process of agreement has produced higher and more prescriptive standards than ICAO. This is especially true of initial Class 1 and private pilot medical standards."
So it seems that although the JAA medicals are in complience with ICAO agreements, that they are far more restrictive. So yes, if someone failed a JAR Class 2 for a problem which would not cause them to fail an ICAO medical, then of course they should be entitled to fly.
I fail to see how this makes the world a safer place?
Restricting the FAA medical to the USA would of course mean that no US transatlantic flights would be possible any more, so its probably not realistic and not going to happen
I don't advocate anyone flying with a failed ECG (besides, doubtful if anyone would as they'd have more pressing things on their mind), but why do we need an ECG in the first place???
EA
So it seems that although the JAA medicals are in complience with ICAO agreements, that they are far more restrictive. So yes, if someone failed a JAR Class 2 for a problem which would not cause them to fail an ICAO medical, then of course they should be entitled to fly.
I fail to see how this makes the world a safer place?
Restricting the FAA medical to the USA would of course mean that no US transatlantic flights would be possible any more, so its probably not realistic and not going to happen
I don't advocate anyone flying with a failed ECG (besides, doubtful if anyone would as they'd have more pressing things on their mind), but why do we need an ECG in the first place???
EA
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC
There is no statistical evidence to support the view that the extra CAA/JAR medical requirements make any difference for a PPL.
I agree about the ECG, IF it shows there is a genuine problem.
Re the options, the smartest option for someone who wants to fly worldwide is an FAA PPL with the FAA medical and an N-reg plane. Then you can also get an IR without the stupid JAR specification on the performance of both ears.
if one fails a medical in the UK then that is a clear and unambigous message that there is a reason for not flying until something is done.
I agree about the ECG, IF it shows there is a genuine problem.
Re the options, the smartest option for someone who wants to fly worldwide is an FAA PPL with the FAA medical and an N-reg plane. Then you can also get an IR without the stupid JAR specification on the performance of both ears.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stupid JAR specification on the performance of both ears.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ECg done...what does the doc look at?
Excellent
ECG done in 10 minutes - no problems to a 41 year old non-smoker who still plays Div 1 hockey every week!
What's the doc going to check......appointment at 8:15 tomorrow.
Good bit is work have agreed to pay for it as it replaces the annual medical that they require me to have for insurance purposes......
Wish they'd pay for my PPL lessons too!
ECG done in 10 minutes - no problems to a 41 year old non-smoker who still plays Div 1 hockey every week!
What's the doc going to check......appointment at 8:15 tomorrow.
Good bit is work have agreed to pay for it as it replaces the annual medical that they require me to have for insurance purposes......
Wish they'd pay for my PPL lessons too!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montsegur
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying"Dutch"
I fully accept that this is the purpose of the rule. However, this would appear to apply to a person who has failed a CAA/JAA medical (ie he has an illness which in the view of the UK/JAA regulators renders him unsafe) yet obtains a FAA licence and valid medical which he uses to fly a Uk registered aircraft in the UK.
I do not claim to have any medical expertise and do not know the details of the differences between CAA and FAA medical requirements. However, I have no reason to disagree with your view that FAA medicals are not a free for all.
I would also point out that if the privilege of flying UK registered aircraft on foreign licences granted by the Air Navigation Order to could easily be withdrawn if it is abused. Similarly the UK has no obligation under the Chicago Convention to allow UK citizens to fly in the UK on foreign licences.
The rule you quote is there to ensure that people who have a medical which is still valid will not fly with an illness or condition which renders them unsafe.
I do not claim to have any medical expertise and do not know the details of the differences between CAA and FAA medical requirements. However, I have no reason to disagree with your view that FAA medicals are not a free for all.
I would also point out that if the privilege of flying UK registered aircraft on foreign licences granted by the Air Navigation Order to could easily be withdrawn if it is abused. Similarly the UK has no obligation under the Chicago Convention to allow UK citizens to fly in the UK on foreign licences.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC and Cathar,
What you guys seem to intimate is that people would be diagnosed with a condition which is a no-no under JAR rules and then would quickly get an FAA medical without disclosing their condition.
That could only happen if the candidate was dishonest and failed to disclose said medical condition.
The JAR and FAA medicals are products from different philosophies with regards to certification.
I have only knowledge as an AME of the FAA system and think that they try to be pro-active.
The thinking of the FAA is that if they can certify someone on the basis of research/medical evidence then they will do so. The statistics seem to prove that they are correct. There is no evidence to suggest that their stance results in an increased rate of accidents attributable to pilot incapacitation.
I must once again emphasise that the FAA medical certification process is as thorough as any JAR medical but that the standards set are based on evidence generated from looking at a large database and constantly reviewed to enable as many people to fly as possible, within a framework which promotes safety.
You write:
Which may well be correct but I am not aware that there are any intentions towards this.
FD
What you guys seem to intimate is that people would be diagnosed with a condition which is a no-no under JAR rules and then would quickly get an FAA medical without disclosing their condition.
That could only happen if the candidate was dishonest and failed to disclose said medical condition.
The JAR and FAA medicals are products from different philosophies with regards to certification.
I have only knowledge as an AME of the FAA system and think that they try to be pro-active.
The thinking of the FAA is that if they can certify someone on the basis of research/medical evidence then they will do so. The statistics seem to prove that they are correct. There is no evidence to suggest that their stance results in an increased rate of accidents attributable to pilot incapacitation.
I must once again emphasise that the FAA medical certification process is as thorough as any JAR medical but that the standards set are based on evidence generated from looking at a large database and constantly reviewed to enable as many people to fly as possible, within a framework which promotes safety.
You write:
I would also point out that if the privilege of flying UK registered aircraft on foreign licences granted by the Air Navigation Order to could easily be withdrawn if it is abused. Similarly the UK has no obligation under the Chicago Convention to allow UK citizens to fly in the UK on foreign licences.
FD
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montsegur
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying"Dutch"
My original comments was in reply to IO540 who said "If you fail the NPPL medical you've still got the option of a FAA PPL with the FAA Class 3 medical." This seemed to indicate a belief that the FAA medical requirements are lower than those in the UK. However, as I said, I do not claim to have any medical expertise and do not know the details of the differences between CAA and FAA medical requirements. I have no reason to suspect that FAA medical requirements are not generally sound.
With regard to my other comment, I know from a contact in the Department for Transport that this is an issue which has come to their attention and that they are considering the implications.
My original comments was in reply to IO540 who said "If you fail the NPPL medical you've still got the option of a FAA PPL with the FAA Class 3 medical." This seemed to indicate a belief that the FAA medical requirements are lower than those in the UK. However, as I said, I do not claim to have any medical expertise and do not know the details of the differences between CAA and FAA medical requirements. I have no reason to suspect that FAA medical requirements are not generally sound.
With regard to my other comment, I know from a contact in the Department for Transport that this is an issue which has come to their attention and that they are considering the implications.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
£138!
£138 is rather more than I anticipated, or even what my flying club advised it would cost.
Is £138 the standard charge or am I being 'done'?
Still - I have the medical certificate class 2, filled in by the doctor, but there is a blank space where it says CAA reference number - does the doctor issue this, or will the CAA tell me when he's sent all the forms in?
Or thirdly should I have been registered as a student by my flying school?
Is £138 the standard charge or am I being 'done'?
Still - I have the medical certificate class 2, filled in by the doctor, but there is a blank space where it says CAA reference number - does the doctor issue this, or will the CAA tell me when he's sent all the forms in?
Or thirdly should I have been registered as a student by my flying school?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many medicals do you have ? Here's my biannual (some are annual) medical regime:
Norwegian Medical (annual)
Panamanian Medical (annual - company rules)
JAA Class 2 Medical (Bi- annual)
FAA Class 2 Medical (Annual to keep class 2)
OPITO Medical (tri annual)
Company Medical (bi annual)
Azerbijanian medical (annual)
And of course the Norwegian one can only be done by a Norwegian registered doc, the FAA one can only be done by an FAA AME or dual AME, JAA one can only be done by a CAA registered doc, the OPITO one can only be done by an OPITO approved doc, the company one can only be done by BUPA, the Panamanian one can be done by anyone, and the Azerbijanian one can be done by any Kebab shop owner in Baku
EA
Norwegian Medical (annual)
Panamanian Medical (annual - company rules)
JAA Class 2 Medical (Bi- annual)
FAA Class 2 Medical (Annual to keep class 2)
OPITO Medical (tri annual)
Company Medical (bi annual)
Azerbijanian medical (annual)
And of course the Norwegian one can only be done by a Norwegian registered doc, the FAA one can only be done by an FAA AME or dual AME, JAA one can only be done by a CAA registered doc, the OPITO one can only be done by an OPITO approved doc, the company one can only be done by BUPA, the Panamanian one can be done by anyone, and the Azerbijanian one can be done by any Kebab shop owner in Baku
EA
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FD: that's not quite right. He'll get a letter from the CAA (when they round to it) telling him he's now on their system and assigning him a number.
Once he gets his PPL, that will also be his PPL number (with a few extra letters at each end).
Once he gets his PPL, that will also be his PPL number (with a few extra letters at each end).
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One Hundred and what?
I keep a JAA Class 1 medical current and my last one cost me £85
Perhaps the CAA needs to tell AMEs what they can charge because the prices vary so much. They issue guidance to Flight Examminers on the test fees so why not to their other examminers?
Regards,
DFC
I keep a JAA Class 1 medical current and my last one cost me £85
Perhaps the CAA needs to tell AMEs what they can charge because the prices vary so much. They issue guidance to Flight Examminers on the test fees so why not to their other examminers?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: UK, Leicester
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a question for you.
I'm about to start a family and I'm thinking of going from my PPL to the NPPL to save money all round (i.e. medical and reissue of licence after 5 years).
But how easy (expensive) is it to get back my full PPL plus night rating if I'm ever back in the money?
I'm about to start a family and I'm thinking of going from my PPL to the NPPL to save money all round (i.e. medical and reissue of licence after 5 years).
But how easy (expensive) is it to get back my full PPL plus night rating if I'm ever back in the money?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are going to keep flying on an NPPL limiting you to flight within the UK so the only costs you are going to save are the medical and 5 yearly renewal costs.
If you have an old UK PPL which is valid for life, the only thing you will save is some of the medical costs (most GPs charge for NPPL medicals).
In flying terms, for the NPPL, you still have to complete the 1 hour with an instructor every 2 years and before flying you must have 6 hours in the past 12 months......this is actually more restrictive ( and harder to keep track of) than the JAA version where you can almost give up flying for the best part of 2 years and do all your flying on the cheap during a holiday in the USA or Cyprus even.
As for getting back to JAA level flying -
You will be doing the flying anyway so every 2 years, having completed the required 1 hour with an instructor for your NPPL, find an examminer and get them to sign off your JAR ratings as well since you should have enough hours.
AFAIK, there is no requirement to hold a medical for an examminer to sign off the rating. The requirement to hold a medical is what permits you to exercise the priviliges of that rating.
Just before your JAA licence reaches it's renewal date, re-valivate your rating by experience and then put the licence away for up to 5 years.
If you return to JAA flying within that 5 years, there are no training requirements and all you need to do is a Proficiency Check with an examminer. You will be current because of your NPPL flying so that should be be no problem. You will also have to pay the CAA for renewal of the licence.
If you go over the 5 years, you wil have to complete training "at the discretion of a RTF or FTO"
The night qualification only requires you to complete 1 of your landings at night in the previous 90 days before carrying passengers. Not that hard to do if you can grab an instructor every winter for a late evening circuit!!
Regards,
DFC
If you have an old UK PPL which is valid for life, the only thing you will save is some of the medical costs (most GPs charge for NPPL medicals).
In flying terms, for the NPPL, you still have to complete the 1 hour with an instructor every 2 years and before flying you must have 6 hours in the past 12 months......this is actually more restrictive ( and harder to keep track of) than the JAA version where you can almost give up flying for the best part of 2 years and do all your flying on the cheap during a holiday in the USA or Cyprus even.
As for getting back to JAA level flying -
You will be doing the flying anyway so every 2 years, having completed the required 1 hour with an instructor for your NPPL, find an examminer and get them to sign off your JAR ratings as well since you should have enough hours.
AFAIK, there is no requirement to hold a medical for an examminer to sign off the rating. The requirement to hold a medical is what permits you to exercise the priviliges of that rating.
Just before your JAA licence reaches it's renewal date, re-valivate your rating by experience and then put the licence away for up to 5 years.
If you return to JAA flying within that 5 years, there are no training requirements and all you need to do is a Proficiency Check with an examminer. You will be current because of your NPPL flying so that should be be no problem. You will also have to pay the CAA for renewal of the licence.
If you go over the 5 years, you wil have to complete training "at the discretion of a RTF or FTO"
The night qualification only requires you to complete 1 of your landings at night in the previous 90 days before carrying passengers. Not that hard to do if you can grab an instructor every winter for a late evening circuit!!
Regards,
DFC
