Ultimate High
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snip - all 277 accidents showed that under the heading 'Stretching the Limits', stall/spin was a factor in 37% of them; this was the highest percentage in the group.
I believe that training on spin avoidance is essential but the best way to do so is to teach spinning.
my one liras worth.
Ciao,
AE
(my first spin was after my PPL, while on my own: I really messed up badly while practicing stalls so I learnt the hard way how to recover).
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Here's a question, Andy. I'm a Super Cub pilot (as everybody else on this board has heard ad nauseam!) -- how relevant do you think spin training in the Extra 300 would be to me, given that I never fly anything else bar the SC? These are two very different aircraft.
I'd like to do some spin training. Part of me says, find someone to do it with in the SC. Another says, this isn't really an aircraft for spinning, even though it's cleared for it within certain weight / CG limits.
QDM
I'd like to do some spin training. Part of me says, find someone to do it with in the SC. Another says, this isn't really an aircraft for spinning, even though it's cleared for it within certain weight / CG limits.
QDM
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AOPA
Whats the cost of the AOPA certificate- (i.e. anything on top of your normal a/c use and instructor fees). I'm doing the training with my inistructor then from what i can gather, you just have to go and do a like skills test for aeros - with recoveries etc. Anything else on top of that?
On the spinning subject, my instructor still shows a spin when teaching the PPL syllabus - i got shown it and am very glad i did!
Also, I am learning aeros on type; and was doing recoveries from aeros which have gone wrong (today actually!) - again another eye opener; especially doing a glide loop & nose low barrell roll - loosing over 1000'. What really worries me are people doing aeros without enough experience. At my home airfield someone actually killed themselves by beinig cocky and doing low level aeros to impress his g'friend. I think there needs to be more emphasis on proper training for aeros in the UK: In Autralia, you need an aeros rating - do you think the CAA should introduce something similiar? Any views?
On the spinning subject, my instructor still shows a spin when teaching the PPL syllabus - i got shown it and am very glad i did!
Also, I am learning aeros on type; and was doing recoveries from aeros which have gone wrong (today actually!) - again another eye opener; especially doing a glide loop & nose low barrell roll - loosing over 1000'. What really worries me are people doing aeros without enough experience. At my home airfield someone actually killed themselves by beinig cocky and doing low level aeros to impress his g'friend. I think there needs to be more emphasis on proper training for aeros in the UK: In Autralia, you need an aeros rating - do you think the CAA should introduce something similiar? Any views?
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I got my PPL back in 1966. At that time, training was 30 hours, but no instrument time at all. However several hours of spin training was included.
I was even sent out, on my own (C150) to practice spins - the first try I bottled out, the second was a sipral dive, and the third I finally made it - all on my own
I can't imagine why it is not taught now, especially as the PPL course is almost double the hours.
If the clubs don't have spinnable aircraft its their problem - it shouldn't be a reason for not teaching spinning.
GB.
(edited for spelling)
I was even sent out, on my own (C150) to practice spins - the first try I bottled out, the second was a sipral dive, and the third I finally made it - all on my own
I can't imagine why it is not taught now, especially as the PPL course is almost double the hours.
If the clubs don't have spinnable aircraft its their problem - it shouldn't be a reason for not teaching spinning.
GB.
(edited for spelling)
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I'm very much for spin training, be it during the PPL or after, it allows pilots to experience extreme manoeuvre and be confident of recoery should it ever happen. The increased confidence alone is worth it.
However, there is a very compelling argument to keep it out of the PPL sylabus in that most of the loss of control accidents were at low altitude, certainly too low for recovery from a spin. Therefore, as I understand it, it was decided that slow flight and spin avoidance training were worth more in flight safety terms than spin recovery.
It's a moot point, but the statistics would appear to support current practice.
Notwithstanding, and I'm nothing to do with UH (although I do know some of their pilots), but I would commend any pilot to do a spinning (and aerobatic) course, no matter what aircraft he or she flies.
However, there is a very compelling argument to keep it out of the PPL sylabus in that most of the loss of control accidents were at low altitude, certainly too low for recovery from a spin. Therefore, as I understand it, it was decided that slow flight and spin avoidance training were worth more in flight safety terms than spin recovery.
It's a moot point, but the statistics would appear to support current practice.
Notwithstanding, and I'm nothing to do with UH (although I do know some of their pilots), but I would commend any pilot to do a spinning (and aerobatic) course, no matter what aircraft he or she flies.
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I can't imagine why it is not taught now, especially as the PPL course is almost double the hours.
If the clubs don't have spinnable aircraft its their problem - it shouldn't be a reason for not teaching spinning.
If the clubs don't have spinnable aircraft its their problem - it shouldn't be a reason for not teaching spinning.
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I've only spun once unintentionally. I was on an early solo check ride in gliders where spinning is (was?) still part of the syllabus. The idea was to stall straight ahead then recover. Due to gross mishandling of the controls the glider spun...
I'm convinced the instructor saw what was going to happen and was prepared. I wasn't and, despite having spun several times, completely froze. The instructor recovered and, to my suprise, authorised me for solo flight. Big lesson learned.
I support Greeners view that knowing how won't mean that you can when it happens unexpectedly. I also fully support the view that spin training (rather than avoidance training) is crucial.
I'm convinced the instructor saw what was going to happen and was prepared. I wasn't and, despite having spun several times, completely froze. The instructor recovered and, to my suprise, authorised me for solo flight. Big lesson learned.
I support Greeners view that knowing how won't mean that you can when it happens unexpectedly. I also fully support the view that spin training (rather than avoidance training) is crucial.
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AE said - I would be curious to know how many of those stall/spin accidents were near the ground, with insufficient space to recover, even if proper and timely actions were applied.
Me too! I spoke with John Thorpe at GASCO today, who was extremely helpful. Unfortunately he did not have the answer to this question, which would require going back through each of the pertinent accident reports.
Me too! I spoke with John Thorpe at GASCO today, who was extremely helpful. Unfortunately he did not have the answer to this question, which would require going back through each of the pertinent accident reports.
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QDM x 3
QDM x 3,
We do our spin training in the Extra (and now Bulldog) because that's what we've got.
The aerodynamics of a spin are common to all types and are taught as part of the course although we do highlight major differences i.e. high tail configuration etc.
The control inputs and recovery techniques also hold good across the board, the main difference being how far forward the stick should go during the recovery - again tyoe differences will be highlighted.
Our studes leave us as safer, more competent and more careful pilots - nuff said.
Come and do the course, bring your SC with you and we'll jump in afterwards to cover any differences live!
We do our spin training in the Extra (and now Bulldog) because that's what we've got.
The aerodynamics of a spin are common to all types and are taught as part of the course although we do highlight major differences i.e. high tail configuration etc.
The control inputs and recovery techniques also hold good across the board, the main difference being how far forward the stick should go during the recovery - again tyoe differences will be highlighted.
Our studes leave us as safer, more competent and more careful pilots - nuff said.
Come and do the course, bring your SC with you and we'll jump in afterwards to cover any differences live!
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QDMQDMQDM: nearly spun my Cub once - the Old Man used to do a lovely falling leaf in it. Being a fathead (and having read - or misread - that a 'proper' falling leaf is a series of incipient spins in opposite directions) I tried my own interpretaton of the manoeuvre...
Scary? No, man - those pants were always that colour.
The point is, I think, that people will always do stupid things sooner or later and that is when it is very useful to know 1) what might happen and 2) how to get out of it.
In my case, I had at least done a series of demonstrated spins in K-13 gliders and, although it had been dropped from the PPL syllabus by the time I came to power flying, several (much more violent feeling) spins in C150/152s.
The lessons on spin avoidance might not quite have percolated through this one skull - but the recovery actions came straight back.
Scary? No, man - those pants were always that colour.
The point is, I think, that people will always do stupid things sooner or later and that is when it is very useful to know 1) what might happen and 2) how to get out of it.
In my case, I had at least done a series of demonstrated spins in K-13 gliders and, although it had been dropped from the PPL syllabus by the time I came to power flying, several (much more violent feeling) spins in C150/152s.
The lessons on spin avoidance might not quite have percolated through this one skull - but the recovery actions came straight back.
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There is so much b@llocks talked about spinning - it's hard to credit sometimes. It's a shame it's no longer in the PPL syllabus but there's a long explaination for this. When it was taught regularly it usually involved an academic entry at a suitable height with an acedemic recovery after a predetermined and counted number of turns. This of course bore no resemblance to spin prevention in the real world of flying and the reason it was discontinued was that more people were killed practising spinning than were killed unintentional spins.
If spin recovery was practised at the incipient stage with the emphasis on prompt and early recovery, the story would be different. The quick and safe way to recognise a spin is to appreciate that if you have buffet and UNDEMANDED roll at the same time, you are in an incipient spin. The immediate recovery actions should be to centralise the controls. I find it amazing that there are lots of instructors out there who I have spoken to who do not appreciate this fact. The fault lies IMHO with the instructor training system. They try it during their instructor course training and that's it. No recurrent training at all.
Personally, I do a quick ten minutes of very gentle incipient spinning with my students some time just before the end of the course. (Luckily, my club has aircraft cleared for spinning). It's very gentle and no more scary than a wing drop at the stall. I know it's not in the syllabus and I open myself up to criticism for admitting this, but as far as I'm concerned, it's an insurance policy for the student which may save his/her life one day. It makes me feel a bit better once they have their PPL - especially if I like them!
Cubes - if there was an average aircraft for spinning, the two you operate couldn't be further away from the mean. The Extra is designed to spin easily - and does! The Bulldog has odd characteristics thanks to the over - large canopy blanking the rudder. If you don't believe me try spinning a pup and see how different they are. I just hope you have enough ex QFIs amongst the 'friendly ex-RAF Red Arrows and fighter pilots' (quote from Pilot magazine's 'where to fly' supplement) to appreciate this and teach spin avoidance properly
If spin recovery was practised at the incipient stage with the emphasis on prompt and early recovery, the story would be different. The quick and safe way to recognise a spin is to appreciate that if you have buffet and UNDEMANDED roll at the same time, you are in an incipient spin. The immediate recovery actions should be to centralise the controls. I find it amazing that there are lots of instructors out there who I have spoken to who do not appreciate this fact. The fault lies IMHO with the instructor training system. They try it during their instructor course training and that's it. No recurrent training at all.
Personally, I do a quick ten minutes of very gentle incipient spinning with my students some time just before the end of the course. (Luckily, my club has aircraft cleared for spinning). It's very gentle and no more scary than a wing drop at the stall. I know it's not in the syllabus and I open myself up to criticism for admitting this, but as far as I'm concerned, it's an insurance policy for the student which may save his/her life one day. It makes me feel a bit better once they have their PPL - especially if I like them!
Cubes - if there was an average aircraft for spinning, the two you operate couldn't be further away from the mean. The Extra is designed to spin easily - and does! The Bulldog has odd characteristics thanks to the over - large canopy blanking the rudder. If you don't believe me try spinning a pup and see how different they are. I just hope you have enough ex QFIs amongst the 'friendly ex-RAF Red Arrows and fighter pilots' (quote from Pilot magazine's 'where to fly' supplement) to appreciate this and teach spin avoidance properly
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Ya Zi
Wise words. Completely agree with the point about spinning too often being reduced into an academic exercise which is then compartmentalised away by the student and all too easily ignored in real world flying situations. This is exactly why any worthwhile ‘upset’ or safety training will specifically focus and include practice (at a safe height) on the places where a pilot will most likely get into a dangerous situation, such as the tightening finals turn/too high/low power scenario.
And also agree wholeheartedly that recurrent training is essential.
On a lighter note, I suggest that all of your students make sure that they get on your good side!
Wise words. Completely agree with the point about spinning too often being reduced into an academic exercise which is then compartmentalised away by the student and all too easily ignored in real world flying situations. This is exactly why any worthwhile ‘upset’ or safety training will specifically focus and include practice (at a safe height) on the places where a pilot will most likely get into a dangerous situation, such as the tightening finals turn/too high/low power scenario.
And also agree wholeheartedly that recurrent training is essential.
On a lighter note, I suggest that all of your students make sure that they get on your good side!
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An interesting thread…
Lots of arrogance regarding the quality of ‘ex military’ pilots here - Mr Cubes… I have sat along side many a ‘ex military’ (some fast jet, some not) co-pilots in big shiny aeroplanes … I can assure you that it is no guarantee of quality; some are aces and others ‘you wouldn’t want to leave in charge of your grandmother’s wheel chair’! (Sometimes proved by repetitive failure of the company command course!)
There are good and bad from all backgrounds. Some of the finest aerobatic instructors are from civil flying backgrounds; one particular White Waltham based gentleman springs to mind.
How many ex-military fast jet pilots have been past or present British Aerobatic Champions, if the quality is that good this should be an easy goal to achieve???!!(Neil Williams is the only one I can think of??... He flew Canberra’s I think?)
Anyhow I’m sure all Ultimate High pilots are aces… you have to be to fly an Extra… don’t you?? (Actually you don’t it’s a very straight forward tail wheel aeroplane)
As for the Extra as a ‘spin’ trainer? It does spin very well, that’s for sure… so it should that’s its pedigree. It can also demonstrate many different forms of spin in relatively safety, like accelerated (thru unloading and/or out spin aileron), flat (adding full power) erect or inverted.
It can also demonstrate the merits of different types of recovery, like the benefit of power on recovery and in spin aileron (combined use demonstrates very rapid recovery even from the flattest of spins). But how this translates to your average GA aircraft…. Umm I’m not so sure???
Lots of arrogance regarding the quality of ‘ex military’ pilots here - Mr Cubes… I have sat along side many a ‘ex military’ (some fast jet, some not) co-pilots in big shiny aeroplanes … I can assure you that it is no guarantee of quality; some are aces and others ‘you wouldn’t want to leave in charge of your grandmother’s wheel chair’! (Sometimes proved by repetitive failure of the company command course!)
There are good and bad from all backgrounds. Some of the finest aerobatic instructors are from civil flying backgrounds; one particular White Waltham based gentleman springs to mind.
How many ex-military fast jet pilots have been past or present British Aerobatic Champions, if the quality is that good this should be an easy goal to achieve???!!(Neil Williams is the only one I can think of??... He flew Canberra’s I think?)
Anyhow I’m sure all Ultimate High pilots are aces… you have to be to fly an Extra… don’t you?? (Actually you don’t it’s a very straight forward tail wheel aeroplane)
As for the Extra as a ‘spin’ trainer? It does spin very well, that’s for sure… so it should that’s its pedigree. It can also demonstrate many different forms of spin in relatively safety, like accelerated (thru unloading and/or out spin aileron), flat (adding full power) erect or inverted.
It can also demonstrate the merits of different types of recovery, like the benefit of power on recovery and in spin aileron (combined use demonstrates very rapid recovery even from the flattest of spins). But how this translates to your average GA aircraft…. Umm I’m not so sure???
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TO SPIN OR NOT TO SPIN !!!!!
Excellent posting, I think this will always be a favourite subject to trash around.
In my very limited opion with the stability of those Aero Club Pa28s, and Cessna 172, its really not required.
I started my aerobatic rating the day following my PPL to many years ago, but never really learnt the theory until becoming an aerobatic instructor years later. It became very apparent most aerobatic instructors had a pretty low level of both knowledge and aerobatic teaching ability, cannot get away from the military guys here, who do both very well !
What every Instructor SHOULD be well aware of is how to brief a student on..
WHAT A SPIN IS !
WHY IT HAPPENS !
AND HOW TO RECOVER !
..... a VERY good briefing, and abit of compitent demonstrating and practise can go along away.....
Is very easy for a student to pick up "hey my instructor does not like this.... is it safe"
Excellent posting, I think this will always be a favourite subject to trash around.
In my very limited opion with the stability of those Aero Club Pa28s, and Cessna 172, its really not required.
I started my aerobatic rating the day following my PPL to many years ago, but never really learnt the theory until becoming an aerobatic instructor years later. It became very apparent most aerobatic instructors had a pretty low level of both knowledge and aerobatic teaching ability, cannot get away from the military guys here, who do both very well !
What every Instructor SHOULD be well aware of is how to brief a student on..
WHAT A SPIN IS !
WHY IT HAPPENS !
AND HOW TO RECOVER !
..... a VERY good briefing, and abit of compitent demonstrating and practise can go along away.....
Is very easy for a student to pick up "hey my instructor does not like this.... is it safe"
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"Lots of arrogance regarding the quality of ‘ex military’ pilots here - Mr Cubes…
It's not the first time you've had a dig at ex-Mil pilots.
I suppose it depends upon your definition of an 'ace' but, if you take into account the initial selection procedure and subsequent ruthless weeding out process, you have to be an ace to make it to fast jet pilot - and to stay there. I dare say some are better than others, but it's all relative. You've got to be an ace by any reasonable standards to be a fighter pilot in the first place, and some of the best of the best are 'creamed off' to do tours as QFI's. (They used to be called 'creamers' for that reason - don't know if they still are.)
Since you mention Cubes my name: Andy Cubin was a QFI in the RAF, the RAF's solo Jaguar display pilot and then selected for the Red Arrows. Joining the Arrows doesn't automatically mean you stay. One Team Leader who later achieved extremely high rank was removed from the team before the end of a season - not something which appears (or is made too obvious) in official histories of the Team. In his second year Andy was chosen for the synchro pair and, in his third, made leader of the synchro pair. I'm not neutral - Cubes is a friend - but the facts speak for themselves.
BTW, Andy got his command on an Airbus within just a few years of moving to the airlines - of course, the fact the Airbus has a stick not a yoke probably helped.
(I can't see how aerobatic skills are relevant to command qualities, but I'm not qualified to disagree - I mention it only because you mentioned ex-Mil pilots failing command courses in the context of a discussion about spinning instruction.)"How many ex-military fast jet pilots have been past or present British Aerobatic Champions, if the quality is that good this should be an easy goal to achieve???!!"
Nigel Lamb won the Neil Williams Memorial Trophy presented annually to the Unlimited National Champion several times. Was it 7 or 8 times? Does that count? Again he's a friend, but that doesn't change the facts.
Of course there are excellent aerobatic pilots/instructors from civil flying backgrounds; I learned a great deal from several at the Tiger Club. Pete Kynsey and Tim Barnby, now both Virgin Captains, come to mind immediately, and there were others. I've also been fortunate to have some outstanding civvy helicopter FI's.
Perhaps I've just been lucky but, of all the Mil/ex-Mil FI's I've had (f/w and rotary) in the past 30 years, I've always been impressed and never disappointed - and I still regularly fly with FI's simply because I think it's good practice to be checked more often than the legal minimum. There may be exceptions, but I've never yet encountered a FJ/ex-FJ jockey who wasn't also an outstanding light aircraft pilot and instructor. In contrast, I have had some poor civvy FI's.
If I had to choose between two instructors and knew nothing about them except one had been in a FJ pilot and one entirely civvy, I'd always choose the Mil man. If the civvy had been an aerobatics champion the choice would be more difficult, but I'd probably still go for the Mil man because I've always found the Mil instruction style to be superb. It might turn out to be the wrong choice in that particular instance - as you say there are exceptions - but I've found it a safe bet in most.
Tudor Owen
(Not ex-Mil, unless you count University Air Squadron, only a PPL - and definitely not an 'ace'. )
[Edit]
BTW, Cubes is certainly confident in his abilities as a pilot - I would be too if my abilities had been consistently recognised by others over more than two decades as his have - but he's not arrogant.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 1st Mar 2004 at 19:21.
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Flying Lawyer…
Think you’ve rather taken my comments the wrong way… but I guess I did leave myself open to criticism. I was not suggesting that Ex mil fast jet jocks were not good (obviously they have achieved certain standards in their careers), but that there are good and bad standards from all flying backgrounds. I was purely trying to readdress the balance… slightly…
Being an ex mil pilot is not a guaranteed assurance of making sound airmanship decisions (this equates to command qualities in my book… which are really no different in a C150, Extra or a B757… the outcome should be the same… a safe flight), or a guarantee of possessing the handling abilities of an ‘Unlimited’ Aerobatic Champion.
An example might be MJ certainly not ex mil… but a truly exceptional aerobatic pilot all the same. Incidentally I think Nigel Lamb was ex helicopters?? (Military… I agree)
As for having a ‘chip on my shoulder’? Umm?? Well I’m sitting where I want to be, in a ‘quality’ UK airline (flying an aeroplane that still requires to be flown, not one that ‘trims’ itself and has a computer between the side stick and the control surface… something you alluded to I believe, handling ability is probably less important in the Airbus, take it from someone who knows!). In my spare time I have unlimited access to a truly fantastic aerobatic aircraft… I’m still trying to achieve my goal in aerobatics, I know my limitations… hopefully that will keep me safe. I do know that to do well in the discipline of competition or display aerobatics requires skill, dedication and lots and lots of practice. Airmanship is of vital importance during aerobatic flight. Being ex mil would not have altered my course in either my professional or private flying worlds… so I don’t think it’s a ‘chip’ that you see…
I just don’t like arrogance. In flying (particularly display or competition aerobatics) your background doesn’t automatically make you better than the next pilot. I have seen many private pilots (civil thru and thru) exhibiting airmanship judgments and handling skills far out classing their professional counterparts (some of whom… dare we mention it were… ex mil!)
Incidentally for the record, I’m from the civilian flying instructor/air taxi (self improver as it used to be called) background.
If you really want to trawl the depths then maybe we should discuss the backgrounds of the pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents over the past few years… there is a common factor… I personally don’t consider this appropriate.
Anyhow you are a professional in the art of argument and as I indicated before… I know my limitations…
Think you’ve rather taken my comments the wrong way… but I guess I did leave myself open to criticism. I was not suggesting that Ex mil fast jet jocks were not good (obviously they have achieved certain standards in their careers), but that there are good and bad standards from all flying backgrounds. I was purely trying to readdress the balance… slightly…
Being an ex mil pilot is not a guaranteed assurance of making sound airmanship decisions (this equates to command qualities in my book… which are really no different in a C150, Extra or a B757… the outcome should be the same… a safe flight), or a guarantee of possessing the handling abilities of an ‘Unlimited’ Aerobatic Champion.
An example might be MJ certainly not ex mil… but a truly exceptional aerobatic pilot all the same. Incidentally I think Nigel Lamb was ex helicopters?? (Military… I agree)
As for having a ‘chip on my shoulder’? Umm?? Well I’m sitting where I want to be, in a ‘quality’ UK airline (flying an aeroplane that still requires to be flown, not one that ‘trims’ itself and has a computer between the side stick and the control surface… something you alluded to I believe, handling ability is probably less important in the Airbus, take it from someone who knows!). In my spare time I have unlimited access to a truly fantastic aerobatic aircraft… I’m still trying to achieve my goal in aerobatics, I know my limitations… hopefully that will keep me safe. I do know that to do well in the discipline of competition or display aerobatics requires skill, dedication and lots and lots of practice. Airmanship is of vital importance during aerobatic flight. Being ex mil would not have altered my course in either my professional or private flying worlds… so I don’t think it’s a ‘chip’ that you see…
I just don’t like arrogance. In flying (particularly display or competition aerobatics) your background doesn’t automatically make you better than the next pilot. I have seen many private pilots (civil thru and thru) exhibiting airmanship judgments and handling skills far out classing their professional counterparts (some of whom… dare we mention it were… ex mil!)
Incidentally for the record, I’m from the civilian flying instructor/air taxi (self improver as it used to be called) background.
If you really want to trawl the depths then maybe we should discuss the backgrounds of the pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents over the past few years… there is a common factor… I personally don’t consider this appropriate.
Anyhow you are a professional in the art of argument and as I indicated before… I know my limitations…
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My ‘chip' comment was a gentle tease, hence the , because I know your views on mil pilots. In the context of this discussion, I disagree. I wouldn't presume to comment upon ex-mil pilots flying an airliner or flying in an airline environment. Although, as you've probably guessed, I disagree with the conclusions you think can be drawn from the backgrounds of pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents, I entirely agree that's a different discussion and not this thread.
We'll have to agree to disagree about mil pilots. Being 'good' isn't good enough to get you a fast jet seat, or to keep you in it. The "certain standard" is exceptional ability, even compared with others who've got through the 'Wings' stage without being chopped - no mean feat in itself.
It's possible I've just been lucky with my ex-mil FI's, but there haven't been any exceptions, either f/w (RAF) or rotary (AAC).
My comment about getting a command and the Airbus stick was meant as a joke. Curiously, although >90% of my s/e f-w flying over the years has been stick, I've flown the Airbus sim at Toulouse and the BA 747-400 sim at LHR and found the side-stick much more difficult. It's a stick, but doesn't entirely operate like one. It might just have been me, and I did spend a few hours in the 747 sim and only about 45 mins in the Airbus. Both were a challenge for me as a PPL of course!
Tudor
(You're right about Nigel - he's ex helicopters.)
, because I know your views on mil pilots. In the context of this discussion, I disagree. I wouldn't presume to comment upon ex-mil pilots flying an airliner or flying in an airline environment. Although, as you've probably guessed, I disagree with the conclusions you think can be drawn from the backgrounds of pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents, I entirely agree that's a different discussion and not this thread.We'll have to agree to disagree about mil pilots. Being 'good' isn't good enough to get you a fast jet seat, or to keep you in it. The "certain standard" is exceptional ability, even compared with others who've got through the 'Wings' stage without being chopped - no mean feat in itself.
It's possible I've just been lucky with my ex-mil FI's, but there haven't been any exceptions, either f/w (RAF) or rotary (AAC).
My comment about getting a command and the Airbus stick was meant as a joke. Curiously, although >90% of my s/e f-w flying over the years has been stick, I've flown the Airbus sim at Toulouse and the BA 747-400 sim at LHR and found the side-stick much more difficult. It's a stick, but doesn't entirely operate like one. It might just have been me, and I did spend a few hours in the 747 sim and only about 45 mins in the Airbus. Both were a challenge for me as a PPL of course!
Tudor
(You're right about Nigel - he's ex helicopters.)
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 2nd Mar 2004 at 02:37.
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Ooh you two!
Mad Russian - good response and thought- provoking stuff, but outside the scope of the thread. Open another one about the relative qualities of Civ/Mil instructors and I am sure it will be entertaining. I'll certainly chip in and I am sure it'll generate a lot of interest.
Flying Lawyer - stop letting him wind you up!!
Bout time for a trip in the Hunter for you sir - touch base.
AC
Flying Lawyer - stop letting him wind you up!!
Bout time for a trip in the Hunter for you sir - touch base.
AC
