Don't want a service...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't want a service...
Is there a service you can get if you don't want a service?
Lets imagine a situation. Its a nice sunny Sunday afternoon, you're out sightseeing with a passenger. You're intentions are to fly around looking at interesting things. Sometimes low level, sometimes high level. Perhaps fly over the top of a reasonable sized airport and do some steep turns to let the passenger have a good look at the big planes. Maybe later a VNE dive for the sake of it and go have a look at a bridge or a bit of coast or the passenger's house. Sometimes the passenger has the controls and is frankly just messing about, up down, sideways, whatever. Point is that there is no particular way you could announce your intentions for an FIS service because you have no idea what your intentions are. But you are well aware of the airspace and stay outside CAS and ATZs, you are well aware of the 500ft and land clear rules and don't breach them and you keep a look out and you squawk Mode C.
So you're not talking to anyone because you don't have to, wouldn't really know what to say and frankly don't really want to. But you are listening in to a relevant frequency and can hear the controller getting vexed about unknown traffic. You'd like to help out just to get some peace on the frequency but don't want to have to announce every change from the last reported heading, altitude, intentions etc.
Is there a call you can make or is the only option for a bit of peace to switch frequencies?
Lets imagine a situation. Its a nice sunny Sunday afternoon, you're out sightseeing with a passenger. You're intentions are to fly around looking at interesting things. Sometimes low level, sometimes high level. Perhaps fly over the top of a reasonable sized airport and do some steep turns to let the passenger have a good look at the big planes. Maybe later a VNE dive for the sake of it and go have a look at a bridge or a bit of coast or the passenger's house. Sometimes the passenger has the controls and is frankly just messing about, up down, sideways, whatever. Point is that there is no particular way you could announce your intentions for an FIS service because you have no idea what your intentions are. But you are well aware of the airspace and stay outside CAS and ATZs, you are well aware of the 500ft and land clear rules and don't breach them and you keep a look out and you squawk Mode C.
So you're not talking to anyone because you don't have to, wouldn't really know what to say and frankly don't really want to. But you are listening in to a relevant frequency and can hear the controller getting vexed about unknown traffic. You'd like to help out just to get some peace on the frequency but don't want to have to announce every change from the last reported heading, altitude, intentions etc.
Is there a call you can make or is the only option for a bit of peace to switch frequencies?
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes. It's called a Flight Information Service 
As for
how about "General handling to the north of SomeTown, various altitudes between 1000' and 8000'."
A related, equally interesting question is what to say when you're announcing your intentions to, say, an A/G airfield, who can't give you a FIS. I've used phraseology like "request to transit your ATZ at 1500', will maintain a listening watch on this frequency until clear" in the past, and that seems to have kept everyone happy.
FFF
--------------
As for
you have no idea what your intentions are
A related, equally interesting question is what to say when you're announcing your intentions to, say, an A/G airfield, who can't give you a FIS. I've used phraseology like "request to transit your ATZ at 1500', will maintain a listening watch on this frequency until clear" in the past, and that seems to have kept everyone happy.
FFF
--------------
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there a service you can get if you don't want a service?
If i'm passing close to or under some controlled airspace (e.g. Solent's class-D) i'll make a call along the lines of "G-CD, A to B, passing under your zone at 1800 feet on ... no service required". This lets them know that the non-squawking blip on the radar has some idea what is going on. They're busy, they don't want to bother with me (no jokes, Saab
) and I don't want a service from them anyway because they probably aren't going to tell me anything useful. Simple. It isn't in CAP413 but nobody complains... and I learned it off Genghis, so it must be alright...
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aim Far
What is wrong with turning your radio off under the circumstances you describe? Or, if that causes any sweaty palms, tune it to 121.5.
If you are operating under VFR and are well outside controlled airspace, I very much doubt that there is an ATCO anywhere who cares enough about you to *want* to talk to you.
You aren't helping them by calling them, and you are destoying what would be for you, an otherwise peaceful flight.
If you are operating close to but outside controlled airspace, the same applies. The controller will not normally be vectoring IFR traffic outside controlled airspace, and where this is a necessary evil, he will be applying separation against you whether you call in or not.
Once you have called in though, the level of service being provided needs to be agreed unambiguously. Currently, the levels of service broadly fall into FIS, RIS, RAS and RCS.
Even if exchanging the phrase Flight Information Service with the controller strikes you as being over the top, it has a value in that it unambiguously sets expectations on both sides as to the service being provided.
What is wrong with turning your radio off under the circumstances you describe? Or, if that causes any sweaty palms, tune it to 121.5.
If you are operating under VFR and are well outside controlled airspace, I very much doubt that there is an ATCO anywhere who cares enough about you to *want* to talk to you.
You aren't helping them by calling them, and you are destoying what would be for you, an otherwise peaceful flight.
If you are operating close to but outside controlled airspace, the same applies. The controller will not normally be vectoring IFR traffic outside controlled airspace, and where this is a necessary evil, he will be applying separation against you whether you call in or not.
Once you have called in though, the level of service being provided needs to be agreed unambiguously. Currently, the levels of service broadly fall into FIS, RIS, RAS and RCS.
Even if exchanging the phrase Flight Information Service with the controller strikes you as being over the top, it has a value in that it unambiguously sets expectations on both sides as to the service being provided.
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 20th Jan 2004 at 01:52.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reading UK
Age: 64
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Request?
A related, equally interesting question is what to say when you're announcing your intentions to, say, an A/G airfield, who can't give you a FIS. I've used phraseology like "request to transit your ATZ at 1500', will maintain a listening watch on this frequency until clear" in the past, and that seems to have kept everyone happy.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed "request to transit..." is an inappropriate thing to say to an A/G station.
You just need from them any information relevant to your transit of the ATZ, at which point you have fulfilled your obligations under the rules of the air, and you should inform them that you are transiting.
You just need from them any information relevant to your transit of the ATZ, at which point you have fulfilled your obligations under the rules of the air, and you should inform them that you are transiting.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
I always try to give parachuting sites (like Headcorn or Goodwood) a call if I'm going to be in the vicinity, even if I'm going to be well above or clear of their ATZ - it helps to know if there's going to be fast-moving human beings bearing down on you!
They generally appreciate the courtesy of a "Headcorn radio, G-ABCD routing S of you @ x000, is the drop zone active"
No jokes EVO!
SD
They generally appreciate the courtesy of a "Headcorn radio, G-ABCD routing S of you @ x000, is the drop zone active"
No jokes EVO!
SD
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a related problem which I find vexing.
Like Aim Far and 2D, I prefer to leave the radio on 121.5 when in Class G on a nice clear day, if I don't need to penetrate airspace (indeed 2D and I flew Biggin-Dunkeswell and back on Saturday without talking to anyone except the two airfields, for example.)
But you can get "sucked in" if you start in Class D airspace that forms part of the LARS network. For example, you depart Teesside, you have to talk to Teesside Approach (obviously, you are in their Class D), then as you leave the zone they say "Radar Information Service" and you don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, so you reply "Radar Information Service", then the next thing you hear is "Squawk xxxx", then "Contact Leeming 127.75, they have you identified"
You are, of course, terribly grateful that everyone is looking after you so nicely, but actually you just want to chat to your mate, or listen to the Archers. Obviously you can say "no, thank you"...it just sounds a bit churlish!
Timothy
Like Aim Far and 2D, I prefer to leave the radio on 121.5 when in Class G on a nice clear day, if I don't need to penetrate airspace (indeed 2D and I flew Biggin-Dunkeswell and back on Saturday without talking to anyone except the two airfields, for example.)
But you can get "sucked in" if you start in Class D airspace that forms part of the LARS network. For example, you depart Teesside, you have to talk to Teesside Approach (obviously, you are in their Class D), then as you leave the zone they say "Radar Information Service" and you don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, so you reply "Radar Information Service", then the next thing you hear is "Squawk xxxx", then "Contact Leeming 127.75, they have you identified"
You are, of course, terribly grateful that everyone is looking after you so nicely, but actually you just want to chat to your mate, or listen to the Archers. Obviously you can say "no, thank you"...it just sounds a bit churlish!
Timothy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aim Far
FIS is the lowest level of service an ATC unit can give you - if you don't want it - then don't call, as 2D's so well explains. Monitoring the frequency is good however and, if you do feel you're the guy that he's getting vexed about - then come up on the frequency and ask for a FIS - it's no great shakes to the Controller concerned and gives him an idea as to what you're doing.
However - if you don't call I would ask you to squawk 7000 with mode 'C'. Even if you're not talking that can still be a great help as it reduces the separation required with you from a blanket 5 miles to 5 miles or 3000ft - a great help when you may be 20 miles away from the airfield but still right in the way of an inbound being radar vectored from medium or high level. (One of my units main arrival routes leaves airways 40 miles away from the field and so has to be vectored through class G 'bandit country' )
Timothy
That's a bit naughty in the first place - what you should be asked is "G-**** leaving controlled airspace - what type of service do you require?". It's a verbal contract between pilot and controller, and as such the type of service should not be imposed. It's not sounding ungrateful if you downgrade to FIS, and indeed on a busy day the controller will be grateful (Though if he'd done it properly in the first place.....................................! )
FIS is the lowest level of service an ATC unit can give you - if you don't want it - then don't call, as 2D's so well explains. Monitoring the frequency is good however and, if you do feel you're the guy that he's getting vexed about - then come up on the frequency and ask for a FIS - it's no great shakes to the Controller concerned and gives him an idea as to what you're doing.
However - if you don't call I would ask you to squawk 7000 with mode 'C'. Even if you're not talking that can still be a great help as it reduces the separation required with you from a blanket 5 miles to 5 miles or 3000ft - a great help when you may be 20 miles away from the airfield but still right in the way of an inbound being radar vectored from medium or high level. (One of my units main arrival routes leaves airways 40 miles away from the field and so has to be vectored through class G 'bandit country'
)Timothy
For example, you depart Teesside, you have to talk to Teesside Approach (obviously, you are in their Class D), then as you leave the zone they say "Radar Information Service" and you don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, so you reply "Radar Information Service",
)
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 20th Jan 2004 at 05:37.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Evo,
There may not be regularly, but there was on the day that I intended to transit in their overhead and was informed that they were dropping from 10k!
If you're not careful I'll say "Solent"
SD
There may not be regularly, but there was on the day that I intended to transit in their overhead and was informed that they were dropping from 10k!
If you're not careful I'll say "Solent"
SD
Aim Far
If you are going to subject your passenger to some "low level", some "steep turns so that they can see planes on the ground" followed by "maybe a VNE Dive for the sake of it" you may well find that you will be looking for a sick bag for a terrified passenger rather than an ATC Service.
Sorry
UV
If you are going to subject your passenger to some "low level", some "steep turns so that they can see planes on the ground" followed by "maybe a VNE Dive for the sake of it" you may well find that you will be looking for a sick bag for a terrified passenger rather than an ATC Service.
Sorry
UV
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kandahar Afghanistan
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aim Far,
Though what you are saying you would be legal, but think about it, is it wise to fly around, over, or near a medium to large airport without talking to the controllers? No it isn't.
Here in the U.S. I would hope that the pilot would contact me, tell me that he would be sight seeing near at an altitude or altitudes. If I need to I might resrict your altitude so that you do not interfer with other traffic, but unless you get in the way I will normally leave you alone.
The whole situation is safer, ATC knows what you are doing, and unless your flight gets into the way you are left alone.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Though what you are saying you would be legal, but think about it, is it wise to fly around, over, or near a medium to large airport without talking to the controllers? No it isn't.
Here in the U.S. I would hope that the pilot would contact me, tell me that he would be sight seeing near at an altitude or altitudes. If I need to I might resrict your altitude so that you do not interfer with other traffic, but unless you get in the way I will normally leave you alone.
The whole situation is safer, ATC knows what you are doing, and unless your flight gets into the way you are left alone.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Guest
Posts: n/a
2D, there's no doubt that what you say is legal but there are a good many airports that have no options but to vector traffic using the airport through Class G airspace. Some of these airports are regularly handling Boeings and Airbuses and trying to dodge an aircraft doing aeros or something similar is no fun - a call from the unknown aircraft can be very helpful.
CM may be more equivocal on the topic but he may not be dealing with the situation as frequently as some of his colleagues just a dozen miles or so South of him!
CM may be more equivocal on the topic but he may not be dealing with the situation as frequently as some of his colleagues just a dozen miles or so South of him!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spitoon.
Clearly if somebody is doing aeros just outside a control zone, then it would be prudent to call in. I don't think anybody would disagree with that.
Similarly, if you are intending to show off above a large airport, then checking in for the FIS is a clever thing to do.
My answer really addressed the more normal question relating to what service you should ask for if you are well outside controlled airspace.
Mike NATCA. The profound differences in airspace design in the US, combined with the complete difference in services types offered to VFR aircraft by US ATC make it difficult to apply the logic of one country to another. However, I completely agree with the general point that if you are pratting around flying aerobatics above a large airport, it would be a good idea to call them. I don't really see anybody disagreeing with that.
Clearly if somebody is doing aeros just outside a control zone, then it would be prudent to call in. I don't think anybody would disagree with that.
Similarly, if you are intending to show off above a large airport, then checking in for the FIS is a clever thing to do.
My answer really addressed the more normal question relating to what service you should ask for if you are well outside controlled airspace.
Mike NATCA. The profound differences in airspace design in the US, combined with the complete difference in services types offered to VFR aircraft by US ATC make it difficult to apply the logic of one country to another. However, I completely agree with the general point that if you are pratting around flying aerobatics above a large airport, it would be a good idea to call them. I don't really see anybody disagreeing with that.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spitoon - to 'pinch from 2D's
As did mine - I'd like to know who everyone is inside a 20 mile radius north of me, both for myself and for the airport 12 miles south - outside that distance I'm more than happy to provide a service if asked, but if they don't want the service then at least give me the information that a transponder can give that is most help (the aircrafts level). When the tables are reversed and coming off airways doing 250Kts the first call I get is "Traffic left, 10 o'clock, 9 miles crossing left to right no height" then the sphincter twitch is quite pronounced!
My answer really addressed the more normal question relating to what service you should ask for if you are well outside controlled airspace.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 20th Jan 2004 at 17:02.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting comments.
Well yes and no. You can probably guess something like this happened at the weekend. I was well above the CAS of the airport in question. The controller in question was mouthing off generally in a withering tone about unknown traffic (and there were maybe three unknowns including me) in her traffic advice to those she was talking to (four light aircraft by the sound of it). It was fairly clear that she didn't accept that there were any aircraft which were entitled to not talk to her. Having listened to her for a while, frankly I didn't want to talk to her.
For the record, I was squawking Mode C and was nowhere near the area where airways flights would leave CAS for the approach. I wasn't doing aeros over the airport, just a couple of turns to get a better look before heading off in another direction. In fact, if I had being doing aeros, that would be easier to call in since I would have been predicable and in a fairly small area.
I guess it was just the attitude of the controller in question that got me going.
FWA NATCA - I would always try to talk to the controllers if I thought I had something to tell them that would be useful. But the flight I described couldn't really be called "known traffic". How would it help them to know that they can't assume I'm going to be predicable? Are they going to block out a whole pile of airspace for me?
I think I'll try the "no service required call" and see if that works.
FIS is the lowest level of service an ATC unit can give you - if you don't want it - then don't call, as 2D's so well explains. Monitoring the frequency is good however and, if you do feel you're the guy that he's getting vexed about - then come up on the frequency and ask for a FIS - it's no great shakes to the Controller concerned and gives him an idea as to what you're doing.
For the record, I was squawking Mode C and was nowhere near the area where airways flights would leave CAS for the approach. I wasn't doing aeros over the airport, just a couple of turns to get a better look before heading off in another direction. In fact, if I had being doing aeros, that would be easier to call in since I would have been predicable and in a fairly small area.
I guess it was just the attitude of the controller in question that got me going.
FWA NATCA - I would always try to talk to the controllers if I thought I had something to tell them that would be useful. But the flight I described couldn't really be called "known traffic". How would it help them to know that they can't assume I'm going to be predicable? Are they going to block out a whole pile of airspace for me?
I think I'll try the "no service required call" and see if that works.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having said what you have, it will now be difficult to name the airport concerned, but it would be interesting to know where you were.
There are many airports with instrument approaches and holds outside controlled airspace; Cranfield is a good example. Orbiting above the ATZ "outside controlled airspace" would cause enormous difficulties if you chose not to speak to the controller.
Any hints?
There are many airports with instrument approaches and holds outside controlled airspace; Cranfield is a good example. Orbiting above the ATZ "outside controlled airspace" would cause enormous difficulties if you chose not to speak to the controller.
Any hints?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aim Far - as they say in US, diff'r'nt strokes! What you did (the way you describe it) wasn't breaking any rules, but I would suggest that by not talking to the air trafficker in question to notify your intentions, you were adding to her workload and were another dimension in her 'What If...' scenario planning and consequently, her stress levels.
I've maybe come from a background where I'm happy to talk to anyone whose job would be made easier if they knew my intentions without necessarily thinking 'I want to be controlled' or 'I'll lose my freedom if I talk to them'. Maybe my rebellious streak has faded and needs re-painting.....
What you did (the way you describe it) wasn't breaking any rules, but I would suggest that by not talking to the air trafficker in question to notify your intentions, you were adding to her workload and were another dimension in her 'What If...' scenario planning and consequently, her stress levels.I've maybe come from a background where I'm happy to talk to anyone whose job would be made easier if they knew my intentions without necessarily thinking 'I want to be controlled' or 'I'll lose my freedom if I talk to them'. Maybe my rebellious streak has faded and needs re-painting.....