Don't want a service...
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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FIS is the lowest level of service an ATC unit can give you
CAP413 doesn't suggest that "Essex Radar, G-ABCD request alerting service" is standard phraseology.
MC.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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So if I want to talk to no-one, what do I say to the previous controller/AFISO/A/G when leaving the frequency?
The older generation often use 'QSY enroute' which seems to work but 'G-XX leaving the frequency' tends to be queried or misheard.
I was always taught to be explicit and say 'G-XX changing to XYZ on NNN.NN' or 'G-XX request frequency change to XYZ...', neither of which is approproriate if I'm going to turn the radio off.
What do other people use?
Mark
The older generation often use 'QSY enroute' which seems to work but 'G-XX leaving the frequency' tends to be queried or misheard.
I was always taught to be explicit and say 'G-XX changing to XYZ on NNN.NN' or 'G-XX request frequency change to XYZ...', neither of which is approproriate if I'm going to turn the radio off.
What do other people use?
Mark
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Also worth pointing out that, even if ATC hand you over to the next unit by telling you to "Contact" them (rather than freecall them), if you don't want to go, then just tell them that you don't want to go, and they'll cancel the handover.
(Happened to me last summer, when I was getting a LARS from a quiet frequency. They very kindly arranged my handover to the next frequency, but they didn't realise that I was about to cross a danger area, and needed to contact London Information for a DACS. No problem - I declined the handover and told them why, they told me to freecall London Information, and I presume they phoned the next unit to tell them not to expect me.)
FFF
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(Happened to me last summer, when I was getting a LARS from a quiet frequency. They very kindly arranged my handover to the next frequency, but they didn't realise that I was about to cross a danger area, and needed to contact London Information for a DACS. No problem - I declined the handover and told them why, they told me to freecall London Information, and I presume they phoned the next unit to tell them not to expect me.)
FFF
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Aim Far,
I'm a controller in the U.S. at FWA (Fort Wayne Intl.) so some of our procedures will be different from what you encounter in the U.K.
Using the airport that I work at, the airport is located about 5 miles south of the city. Often a pilot will take friends or family up flying to see the city from the air, if you call on with your intentions, I for one don't have to worry about what that VFR aircraft is doing, and it allows me to verify your altitude, which helps for when I have to issue traffic.
In addition we have two general aviation airports and four private air strips within ten miles of FWA so the odds of you becoming a factor (traffic) for someone is pretty high.
Mike
NATCA FWA
I'm a controller in the U.S. at FWA (Fort Wayne Intl.) so some of our procedures will be different from what you encounter in the U.K.
Using the airport that I work at, the airport is located about 5 miles south of the city. Often a pilot will take friends or family up flying to see the city from the air, if you call on with your intentions, I for one don't have to worry about what that VFR aircraft is doing, and it allows me to verify your altitude, which helps for when I have to issue traffic.
In addition we have two general aviation airports and four private air strips within ten miles of FWA so the odds of you becoming a factor (traffic) for someone is pretty high.
Mike
NATCA FWA
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Whilst I agree with most of what has been put forward in answer to Aim Fars original post, there's little that's more pointless than listening on an ATC frequency and not speaking to the unit.
In common with many UK atco's, both in and outside controlled airspace, we will provide a FIS or Radar service to not only our own traffic but also to transit aircraft. It's in our own interests to do so, and enhances flight safety for everyone.
I don't know where you're based Aim Far , but it would be a very good idea to spend a few hours in your local non military ATC unit, (especially one that provides a radar service), just to get an idea of what our side of the picture is.
PM me if you want any contact details.
In common with many UK atco's, both in and outside controlled airspace, we will provide a FIS or Radar service to not only our own traffic but also to transit aircraft. It's in our own interests to do so, and enhances flight safety for everyone.
I don't know where you're based Aim Far , but it would be a very good idea to spend a few hours in your local non military ATC unit, (especially one that provides a radar service), just to get an idea of what our side of the picture is.
PM me if you want any contact details.
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NIKNAK,
I get your drift, but there can be some occasions where it serves a purpose. By listening out, you can sometimes determine that you are the source of the problem - a good time to initiate contact. If not, saves everyone some R/T load, especially if it seems busy.
This has happened to me, when the "FIR" frequency was like a children's playground (and equally undisciplined), and getting air time was almost impossible. However, by monitoring the frequency I was aware of traffic in my vicinity, and was able to keep a more pertinent watch.
As to the original question, I have used the following "no service required, maintaining a listening watch on the frequency". Remember to announce when leaving the frequency, though.
I get your drift, but there can be some occasions where it serves a purpose. By listening out, you can sometimes determine that you are the source of the problem - a good time to initiate contact. If not, saves everyone some R/T load, especially if it seems busy.
This has happened to me, when the "FIR" frequency was like a children's playground (and equally undisciplined), and getting air time was almost impossible. However, by monitoring the frequency I was aware of traffic in my vicinity, and was able to keep a more pertinent watch.
As to the original question, I have used the following "no service required, maintaining a listening watch on the frequency". Remember to announce when leaving the frequency, though.
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I have used the following "no service required, maintaining a listening watch on the frequency". Remember to announce when leaving the frequency, though.
When you speak to ATC in the UK, you are announcing your existence and contracting with them for a level of service. The service levels are, generally speaking, FIS, RIS, RAS and RCS depending on your flight rules, location and circumstances.
There is no service below FIS, so that once you have popped up on frequency, unless you have given the ATCO reason to believe that you have popped off again or been turned down by the ATCO, you are under FIS whether you like it or not. If the ATCO can't be bothered to re-enforce that by making you jump through the hoop of exchanging the words "Flight information Service", that is another issue.
Clarity is the goal in any RT. Destroying that clarity with non-standard calls is not doing anybody any favours IMHO.
2D
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All good points so far. Just a couple of additions:
1) Mode C is very useful, but bear in mind that unless the controller has 'verified' or knows that someone else has verified the Mode C they can use it as information only. Verifying Mode C is achieved by asking an aircraft on the R/T to report its level and comparing that with what the Mode C shows. It cannot be RELIED upon under other circumstances as transponders have been known to be several hundred or thousand feet out. So to be blasting about just over the top of CAS might well be legal, but you will be causing some concern to the controller who will not be CERTAIN that you are at the level your Mode C indicates.
2) Although you may not want a service, to be listening or even known traffic to an air traffic unit might just give you the edge in avoiding collisions. It is likely that other aircraft will call into that unit and you will be able to be aware of their presence and vice versa. Given your example flight profile (but why would you want to do a Vne dive for fun and risk overstressing the airframe or popping a door open), could you not just give general info as already suggested: "Operating to the NE between 1000' and 4000', will call complete"? A Flight Information Service can of course be enhanced by the more information you give, but it is not mandatory.
I would also echo other ATCOs' opinions so far that if you are close to CAS, please call so that you become one less "unknown" part of the jigsaw.
1) Mode C is very useful, but bear in mind that unless the controller has 'verified' or knows that someone else has verified the Mode C they can use it as information only. Verifying Mode C is achieved by asking an aircraft on the R/T to report its level and comparing that with what the Mode C shows. It cannot be RELIED upon under other circumstances as transponders have been known to be several hundred or thousand feet out. So to be blasting about just over the top of CAS might well be legal, but you will be causing some concern to the controller who will not be CERTAIN that you are at the level your Mode C indicates.
2) Although you may not want a service, to be listening or even known traffic to an air traffic unit might just give you the edge in avoiding collisions. It is likely that other aircraft will call into that unit and you will be able to be aware of their presence and vice versa. Given your example flight profile (but why would you want to do a Vne dive for fun and risk overstressing the airframe or popping a door open), could you not just give general info as already suggested: "Operating to the NE between 1000' and 4000', will call complete"? A Flight Information Service can of course be enhanced by the more information you give, but it is not mandatory.
I would also echo other ATCOs' opinions so far that if you are close to CAS, please call so that you become one less "unknown" part of the jigsaw.
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Just to enlarge on eyeintheskys comments
1) verified mode 'C' you can accept as gospel, and as such avoid by 1000ft (but you'd normally co-ordinate with the other unit to avoid any nasty surprises like climbing and descending into each other). If it's unverified it's still useful because although it's information it means we can come over the top of you no closer than 3000ft - a lot more sensible than vectoring your traffic round the sky to try and get 5 miles is the option to slow down the descent. So just because you're not talking to anyone get that Mode 'C' ON
2) A number of times today I had traffic going through my final approach between 4 and 8 miles showing no level, just squawking 7000. A blind call on the frequencies (VHF and UHF) stating the position and direction of flight, was, in a lot of cases, sufficient for the guy to come up (they'd been monitoring - mainly Mil helo's but the odd light single) with a "That's me - I'm at 1000ft" - very, very useful. (The joys of IAP's in Class 'G' airspace!) Read the maps guys - be VERY aware of those 10 mile chevrons on your charts and remember they may apply to the other end of the runway too.
1) verified mode 'C' you can accept as gospel, and as such avoid by 1000ft (but you'd normally co-ordinate with the other unit to avoid any nasty surprises like climbing and descending into each other). If it's unverified it's still useful because although it's information it means we can come over the top of you no closer than 3000ft - a lot more sensible than vectoring your traffic round the sky to try and get 5 miles is the option to slow down the descent. So just because you're not talking to anyone get that Mode 'C' ON
2) A number of times today I had traffic going through my final approach between 4 and 8 miles showing no level, just squawking 7000. A blind call on the frequencies (VHF and UHF) stating the position and direction of flight, was, in a lot of cases, sufficient for the guy to come up (they'd been monitoring - mainly Mil helo's but the odd light single) with a "That's me - I'm at 1000ft" - very, very useful. (The joys of IAP's in Class 'G' airspace!) Read the maps guys - be VERY aware of those 10 mile chevrons on your charts and remember they may apply to the other end of the runway too.
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As far as I understand it, any ATSU that acknowledges your callsign is bound to provide an alerting service - even an A/G station which can't provide a FIS; i.e. if you drop off frequency unexpectedly they should initiate SAR action.
Had an interesting experience with a certain East Anglian USAF controller (not that I blame her, I hasten to point out) - I was transitting above her MATZ and gave her a courtesy call, which was acknowledged with callsign and Standby; I heard no more from her and when I called to QSY when clear of her area she didn't actually have a note of my callsign, so I couldn't really have had an alerting service even...! She was incredibly busy sequencing big American jets into the approach, which is why I don't blame her, but she was really overstretched.
Tim
Had an interesting experience with a certain East Anglian USAF controller (not that I blame her, I hasten to point out) - I was transitting above her MATZ and gave her a courtesy call, which was acknowledged with callsign and Standby; I heard no more from her and when I called to QSY when clear of her area she didn't actually have a note of my callsign, so I couldn't really have had an alerting service even...! She was incredibly busy sequencing big American jets into the approach, which is why I don't blame her, but she was really overstretched.
Tim
