Daydreaming about a purchase...
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Seriously thinking about a purchase...
I know that some of you guys have lots of experience in these matters (in fact I heard some of you are multiple offenders ), so I thought I'd cast around for any opinions...
I'm thinking about getting a 'cheap' (I know there ain't no such thing - but you know what I mean) single or two seater to blat around in.
My requirements so far are:
Quick
Tricycle gear
Enclosed cockpit
Probably it would be some PFA type.
Ideally it would be OK living outdoors as there doesn't seem to be much affordable hangarage around Greater London...
I'd be keeping my share in the 172 for hauling [strike]beer[/strike]passengers around - so I'd consider both single and two seaters, although I have a slight preference for the latter.
Any ideas, dos or don'ts?
I'm thinking about getting a 'cheap' (I know there ain't no such thing - but you know what I mean) single or two seater to blat around in.
My requirements so far are:
Quick
Tricycle gear
Enclosed cockpit
Probably it would be some PFA type.
Ideally it would be OK living outdoors as there doesn't seem to be much affordable hangarage around Greater London...
I'd be keeping my share in the 172 for hauling [strike]beer[/strike]passengers around - so I'd consider both single and two seaters, although I have a slight preference for the latter.
Any ideas, dos or don'ts?
Last edited by In Altissimus; 17th Jan 2004 at 22:02.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Well, I'm perfectly happy with my Europa. And although the tricycle version is much less fun 
to land, it would meet all of your requirements - PFA aircraft, enclosed cockpit, two seats, and reasonably fast (I can get 120kt cruise out of mine quite comfortably - although with the extra drag of the tricycle you'd probably want to knock a couple of knots off of that.)
I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of others, though.
FFF
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to land, it would meet all of your requirements - PFA aircraft, enclosed cockpit, two seats, and reasonably fast (I can get 120kt cruise out of mine quite comfortably - although with the extra drag of the tricycle you'd probably want to knock a couple of knots off of that.)I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of others, though.
FFF
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FFF
I am thinking a bit cheaper than your shiny steed.
The kind of thing I'm considering would be roughly in the £5k-£12k band.
And, no, I won't consider a share for this - I want a toy all of my own to play with
I am thinking a bit cheaper than your shiny steed.
The kind of thing I'm considering would be roughly in the £5k-£12k band.
And, no, I won't consider a share for this - I want a toy all of my own to play with
I can think of loads that do everything you want and come into that price bracket, but aren't all that fast (some are microlights). For example...
Shadow.
Streak Shadow
X'Air.
Snowbird
Rans S-6
(the only one I wouldn't leave on a tie-down with covers is the Shadow, and that derigs into a trailer in half an hour)
And a few that do everything you want, but have a tailwheel and except for the Kitfox, almost certainly need hangaring in the UK climate...
Rand KR2
Whittman Tailwind
Smaller Jodels
Kitfox
But can't think of anything that does everything you want in that price bracket.
My suggestion if you want a fast cheap tourer is to bite the bullet and learn to fly taildraggers. On the other hand if you want cheap local flying and keep the 172 share for longer trips, forget the speed and go for one of the microlights.
G
Shadow.
Streak Shadow
X'Air.
Snowbird
Rans S-6
(the only one I wouldn't leave on a tie-down with covers is the Shadow, and that derigs into a trailer in half an hour)
And a few that do everything you want, but have a tailwheel and except for the Kitfox, almost certainly need hangaring in the UK climate...
Rand KR2
Whittman Tailwind
Smaller Jodels
Kitfox
But can't think of anything that does everything you want in that price bracket.
My suggestion if you want a fast cheap tourer is to bite the bullet and learn to fly taildraggers. On the other hand if you want cheap local flying and keep the 172 share for longer trips, forget the speed and go for one of the microlights.
G
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Ghengis,
Good advice as usual.
From your list, the KR2 stands out for me. It'd already caught my eye.
Looks like what I need to find is a tricycle geared KR2...
Failing that I'll have to overcome my fear of taildraggers I suppose.
One way or another, I'm going to be on the lookout for a nice example.
Good advice as usual.
From your list, the KR2 stands out for me. It'd already caught my eye.
Looks like what I need to find is a tricycle geared KR2...
Failing that I'll have to overcome my fear of taildraggers I suppose.
One way or another, I'm going to be on the lookout for a nice example.
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KR2.... Mmmm.
The original KR2 is very, very short coupled has light control forces and must be considered as 'twitchy'. Also, most (or all?) of the KR2's in this country are in fact, single seaters with no pax seat fitted due to the lower max weight the PFA imposes.
The later KR2s may be better but they will be more money than you want to spend.
How about a Sonerai II? apart from that I can't think of anything else that fits the bill.
Kingy tip is go to the States Buy a C150 or an AA1, bring it back and operate it on an 'N' number - do it right and It'll cost less than £10 grand due to the exchange rates, AND you could sell it for more after a couple of years
Kingy
KR2.... Mmmm.
The original KR2 is very, very short coupled has light control forces and must be considered as 'twitchy'. Also, most (or all?) of the KR2's in this country are in fact, single seaters with no pax seat fitted due to the lower max weight the PFA imposes.
The later KR2s may be better but they will be more money than you want to spend.
How about a Sonerai II? apart from that I can't think of anything else that fits the bill.
Kingy tip is go to the States Buy a C150 or an AA1, bring it back and operate it on an 'N' number - do it right and It'll cost less than £10 grand due to the exchange rates, AND you could sell it for more after a couple of years
Kingy
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Kingy,
Well - you are raining on my parade!
In terms of the KR2; thanks for the advice about the seating - and there was I thinking the PFA was on our side! When you say "twitchy" do you mean on the ground or in the air?
I got rather close to buying a Sonerai II in the summer. Then I met a man who had. He was hating it on the ground. I had a good look inside and it was a little primitive for my tastes - although I appreciate builders will vary the panels considerably. I wouldn'r really fancy flying from the back seat with the instruments in the front.
Going the USA route obviously makes sense financially at the moment. But I really don't want a C150/2, and it'd be an awful lot of hassle wouldn't it?
Well - you are raining on my parade!
In terms of the KR2; thanks for the advice about the seating - and there was I thinking the PFA was on our side! When you say "twitchy" do you mean on the ground or in the air?
I got rather close to buying a Sonerai II in the summer. Then I met a man who had. He was hating it on the ground. I had a good look inside and it was a little primitive for my tastes - although I appreciate builders will vary the panels considerably. I wouldn'r really fancy flying from the back seat with the instruments in the front.
Going the USA route obviously makes sense financially at the moment. But I really don't want a C150/2, and it'd be an awful lot of hassle wouldn't it?
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KR2's? - Well, my dad owned one for a while and he reckoned it was the most twitchy short coupled aircraft he had ever flown. I actually turned down the chance to fly it... (and bear in mind we fly an Isaacs Fury from a 250m hillside!). The original builder only flew it once and ground looped it after ignoring advice from the test pilot regarding his experience levels. The aircraft would exceed the 135KT VNE in level flight though.
The 'ol man operated it out of Kemble, but later decided to base it at our strip - He got it in, but it left on a trailer.. and the aircraft was subsequently written off by the next owner.
Sorry if you didn't want to hear all that..!
As regards the US thing - It's something that I'm looking at and the numbers really do add up well if you bring two aircraft back. It's a shame that the CAA stopped vintage aircraft going on a PFA permit and that the PFA are so leery about imported homebuilts though - It kinda limits your choice!
I dont know if it's sold, but this may be just what you are looking for...
Cheers
Kingy
KR2's? - Well, my dad owned one for a while and he reckoned it was the most twitchy short coupled aircraft he had ever flown. I actually turned down the chance to fly it... (and bear in mind we fly an Isaacs Fury from a 250m hillside!). The original builder only flew it once and ground looped it after ignoring advice from the test pilot regarding his experience levels. The aircraft would exceed the 135KT VNE in level flight though.
The 'ol man operated it out of Kemble, but later decided to base it at our strip - He got it in, but it left on a trailer.. and the aircraft was subsequently written off by the next owner.
Sorry if you didn't want to hear all that..!
As regards the US thing - It's something that I'm looking at and the numbers really do add up well if you bring two aircraft back. It's a shame that the CAA stopped vintage aircraft going on a PFA permit and that the PFA are so leery about imported homebuilts though - It kinda limits your choice!
I dont know if it's sold, but this may be just what you are looking for...
Cheers
Kingy
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Kingy,
Thanks for the detailled info. There's nothing like direct experience...
I'd already noticed that Stern for sale. As you say, it fits the bill in many ways. However, I'm not at all sure about that _very_ flimsy nosewheel arrangement. Also, I'm not sure that I'm intrepid enough to look after the only example in the kingdom.
Regarding the US thing - it sounds like you are about to do it... I might be up for teaming up. PM me if so.
Thanks for the detailled info. There's nothing like direct experience...
I'd already noticed that Stern for sale. As you say, it fits the bill in many ways. However, I'm not at all sure about that _very_ flimsy nosewheel arrangement. Also, I'm not sure that I'm intrepid enough to look after the only example in the kingdom.
Regarding the US thing - it sounds like you are about to do it... I might be up for teaming up. PM me if so.
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To each his own, but I can't for the life of me understand why you would specify that it has to be a nosedragger. Don't get me wrong, I'm no tailwheel snob, but there are so many fine tailwheel airplanes out there that it simply doesn't make sense to eliminate them from your search.
If you don't know how to fly one, just take some instruction. It's not a big deal, and will make you a better pilot.
If you don't know how to fly one, just take some instruction. It's not a big deal, and will make you a better pilot.
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MLS-12D,
Ah - I thought someone would ask.
I think I've been over influenced by a certain Herr Langeweisse (sp?). Although I thought a lot of his tome (Stick & Rudder) was reactionary twaddle, the chapter 'Why our landing gears are all wrong' seemed to make a lot of sense to me.
Putting the C of G behind the brakes just seems like asking for trouble when you think about it in those simple terms.
Of course, I'm saying this with precisely 0 hours experience of tailwheels. I reserve the right to change my mind compleatly (!) some day
I wonder what a Cassutt Racer is like to fly?
Ah - I thought someone would ask.
I think I've been over influenced by a certain Herr Langeweisse (sp?). Although I thought a lot of his tome (Stick & Rudder) was reactionary twaddle, the chapter 'Why our landing gears are all wrong' seemed to make a lot of sense to me.
Putting the C of G behind the brakes just seems like asking for trouble when you think about it in those simple terms.
Of course, I'm saying this with precisely 0 hours experience of tailwheels. I reserve the right to change my mind compleatly (!) some day
I wonder what a Cassutt Racer is like to fly?
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Of course, I'm saying this with precisely 0 hours experience of tailwheels. I reserve the right to change my mind compleatly (!) some day
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In Alt
Get a back copy of Flyer (May 2001). I read it in the bath last night and there is a great article about buying a/c for under £8k.
It is surprising what you can get for under 10K. (As long as you don't mind a tailwheel).
Get a back copy of Flyer (May 2001). I read it in the bath last night and there is a great article about buying a/c for under £8k.
It is surprising what you can get for under 10K. (As long as you don't mind a tailwheel).
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TB:
I think I have that one in my 'spare room' somewhere - will dig it out tonight.
Anyone:
Does anyone have any experience of the Cassutt Racer perchance? You can guess why I'm asking - and don't go posting links to the advert - we don't want everyone knowing about it!!!
I think I have that one in my 'spare room' somewhere - will dig it out tonight.
Anyone:
Does anyone have any experience of the Cassutt Racer perchance? You can guess why I'm asking
- and don't go posting links to the advert - we don't want everyone knowing about it!!!
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Cheapo flying
Get yourself a Rollason Condor and a set of Cambrai covers for it.
Impress the ladies with the 'RR' plate on the prop boss.
The rodnoC is a piece of P to fly and probably the easiest of any taildragger to land. I learned on them and went solo after 11 hrs so a conversion from a spamcan shouldn't take too long, even if you are just Mr Average like me.
You should be able to find a good one within your budget - pretty much for the value of the engine, the airframes are not worth a great deal for some wierd reason.
Great fun to fly and as cheap as chips to operate, especially if you can find one on a Permit.
THere is a Condor website - check out the Condor thread on Aviation History and Nostalgia for details.
HP
Impress the ladies with the 'RR' plate on the prop boss.
The rodnoC is a piece of P to fly and probably the easiest of any taildragger to land. I learned on them and went solo after 11 hrs so a conversion from a spamcan shouldn't take too long, even if you are just Mr Average like me.
You should be able to find a good one within your budget - pretty much for the value of the engine, the airframes are not worth a great deal for some wierd reason.
Great fun to fly and as cheap as chips to operate, especially if you can find one on a Permit.
THere is a Condor website - check out the Condor thread on Aviation History and Nostalgia for details.
HP
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I A,
Cheers for the offer, but I've already got a 'buddie' who wants to share a container with me - I'll keep you all posted in Pprune land on how the importing goes though...
I started a thread about the Cassutt last year, the search function seems to be down at the mo however, but It may be worth trying later...
How can I put this mate.. er.. alright I'll say it.. I would respectfully suggest that this would not be an ideal first single seater/taildragger for you, as I believe NO-ONE, not you, not me, no-one would be safe after flying a pa28, doing a t/w course then going straight onto an aircraft like this. If you want single seater, go buy a Turbulent/VP1/Taylor Mono/D9 and fly the @ss off it for a year - you'll learn loads and they'd be a good stepping stone for that kind of machine...
Kingy
Cheers for the offer, but I've already got a 'buddie' who wants to share a container with me - I'll keep you all posted in Pprune land on how the importing goes though...
I started a thread about the Cassutt last year, the search function seems to be down at the mo however, but It may be worth trying later...
How can I put this mate.. er.. alright I'll say it.. I would respectfully suggest that this would not be an ideal first single seater/taildragger for you, as I believe NO-ONE, not you, not me, no-one would be safe after flying a pa28, doing a t/w course then going straight onto an aircraft like this. If you want single seater, go buy a Turbulent/VP1/Taylor Mono/D9 and fly the @ss off it for a year - you'll learn loads and they'd be a good stepping stone for that kind of machine...
Kingy
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Kingy,
Point made. TBH I was thinking that might be the case - that's why I asked the question.
I'd better find something soon, or else I'll end up making an impulse purchase
OK then - off to the wilds of the internet to find out about Condors...
Point made. TBH I was thinking that might be the case - that's why I asked the question.
I'd better find something soon, or else I'll end up making an impulse purchase
OK then - off to the wilds of the internet to find out about Condors...
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IA:
Kingy is right, I agree that the Cassutt would not be an ideal first time ship (anyway, it's a tailwheel, so that's out of your original spec).
But nice to see that you are keeping an open mind w.r.t. tailwheels. If I can handle one (and I think I can) then honestly anyone can.
The cheap bit of aircraft ownership is buying it. Hangarage, fuel, insurance, annuals, etc, will cost a lot more over time.
Personally, I think your spec is too restrictive, and as others have said, if you can open your spec out a bit (either on price or third wheel arrangement or possibly group ownership), then I think the choices open up almost exponentially.
Also, have you considered something further away from your home? Depending where you live, where your 172 is, and where the land of GA opportunity really opens out, it might be worth considering basing your chosen steed further away.
Anyway, good luck with your quest.
Kingy is right, I agree that the Cassutt would not be an ideal first time ship (anyway, it's a tailwheel, so that's out of your original spec).
But nice to see that you are keeping an open mind w.r.t. tailwheels. If I can handle one (and I think I can) then honestly anyone can.
The cheap bit of aircraft ownership is buying it. Hangarage, fuel, insurance, annuals, etc, will cost a lot more over time.
Personally, I think your spec is too restrictive, and as others have said, if you can open your spec out a bit (either on price or third wheel arrangement or possibly group ownership), then I think the choices open up almost exponentially.
Also, have you considered something further away from your home? Depending where you live, where your 172 is, and where the land of GA opportunity really opens out, it might be worth considering basing your chosen steed further away.
Anyway, good luck with your quest.