Flying IFR in the UK using an IMC Rating

[Speedbird744]

Heres the situation:
I want to fly IFR from Elstree to Newcastle using an IMC rating (I have an FAA IR but will be flying a G Reg aircraft).
Firstly, Elstree and other airfields are noted on the Jepp Low Altitude Enroute chart, so how do you know where to start your routing?
With an IMC rating, can I then fly on the airways? If not then would I have to fly direct to each VOR?
Where do all the clearances come in? Would you have to leave Elstree VFR and then ..? Would you get one simple transponder code throughout the route and be handed off to radar controllers?
I would appreciate a reply as I've only flown IFR in the states.
Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

Speedbird,

First of all, the legalities. If you have an FAA IR, you may automatically fly in IMC outside of controlled airspace in the UK. This is not the same as having an IMC rating. You may also automatically apply to have an IMC rating put on your UK, or your UK-issued JAR, PPL, assuming you have one. If you do this, you will be entitled to fly in IMC in Class D and below (i.e. it adds the privilege of flying in Class D and Class E to what you already have).

Next, practicalities. Flying in IMC outside controlled airspace is, I think, very different to anything you've done in the US. I'd suggest getting a couple of hours dual with an IMC instructor first, so you can understand what's involved.

However, here's what you would do in practice:

You can leave Elstree IFR, and you can remain IFR the whole time you're in Class G if you want. Get a map which shows the area of coverage of LARS (Lower Airspace Radar Service) facilities - there's one in the front of Pooleys, amongst other places - and try to stay within the area they cover if possible. There is no requirement to speak to anyone if you're IFR outside of controlled airspace, but if you stay within range of a LARS facility you should ask for a Radar Information Service, which will give you traffic information for any known traffic, and traffic avoidance advice on request. You will get a transponder code if you get this service, but you will not keep it as you move from one unit to another. You may or may not be handed from one unit to the next, depending how busy they are, and they can refuse you the service if they are too busy.

As for navigation, you can use any method you see fit. Unlike airways flying, there is no "specified" method of navigation. You don't have to fly direct from VOR to VOR - you can fly a direct track if you want, using VOR/DME information, or any other information, to ensure you are on track. Without charts in front of me, I wouldn't know what to suggest for your route, but I do know that the area around Elstree is particularly tight as far as airspace is concerned, so that would be my main area of concern. You would not normally use an airways chart for a flight like this - the 1/2-million VFR chart contains all the information you need.

Hope that's a help - but I really would try to get some dual before you try this.

FFF
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[Field In Sight]

Find an N-Registered aircraft and use that instead. You then can use your full FAA-IR privileges.

The IMC rating effectively allows you to fly in IMC but only
i. outside of controlled airspace (no clearances required or available). Radar cover is obviously sensible, but is not required or sometimes available.

ii. In class D airspace (clearance must be obtained before transiting each zone or approaching an airfield within it).

My IMC rating is based on my FAA IR and would only really use it to climb on top if required.

I haven't used it in anger due my worries about not being able to avoid other aircraft when the RAF go home for tea and switch off their nice radar antennas.
Unfortunately my lack of bottle doesn't let me subscribe to the "Big sky" theory.

If you seach on "big sky imc" you will find lots of discussion about it.

FIS

[Speedbird744]

So if I found an N Reg aircraft, and so using a full instrument rating, would I then be required to use the airways chart and everthing would be different?
As I can go in any class of airspace with that, where do I pick up the IFR clearance? Surely with this, everything is made easier?
Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

You wouldn't be required to use the airways if you flew an N-registered aircraft, but you would be able to. And it would be much easier.

Not 100% sure about the clearance, since I don't have the rating to be able to do this myself, but I think you would either contact your nearest LARS facility, or, if you're not within range of one, contact London Information, who will issue you with the clearance. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.

FFF
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[bookworm]

So if I found an N Reg aircraft, and so using a full instrument rating, would I then be required to use the airways chart and everthing would be different?

It would be closer to what you're used to in the US, but still with some substantial differences.

1) The flight plan format is different and an IFR FPL has to go through flow control -- you may get a slot.

2) You don't get a clearance with void time on the ground. You'd get airborne and talk to Luton, who would give you your onward airways clearance.

3) The airways tend to have high bases (MEAs) further north, for air traffic reasons rather than terrain or reception. FL110 is typical. You may find that you don't want to be in the airway, and I'd always recommend having a half-mil (sectional) chart available.

As I can go in any class of airspace with that, where do I pick up the IFR clearance? Surely with this, everything is made easier?

Bear in mind that outside controlled airspace, no separation is offered and no clearance is required. thus you only need a clearance for the segments of your route within controlled airspace. For a typical off-airways flight from Elstree to Newcastle, that may only be the crossing of the class D Luton zone. For the remainder of the route in class G, you can usually get a radar information or advisory service from participating LARS units.

[Aim Far]

Speedbird

I am in the same position as you (FAA IR and IMC that I'm confused about using). I have been reading up on this over the last two or three weeks to try to get a handle on the differences. I have also booked time with an instructor this weekend to get some experience.

If it helps, I found the IMC confuser quite useful as a quick guide to the regs, also www.pplir.com and most things written on the subject by about 7 or 8 people on this forum. Its also worth comparing anything you read with the equivalent version in the US to get an idea of the differences; I am guessing there's not that much difference in the rules, its just that you use different sections of the rules (eg rules for class G instead of E, procedural instead of radar-vectored).

I don't speak with any authority but it looks like you kind of have to forget much of what was normal in the states. There, being IFR makes it easy - same squawk, all clearances and handovers automatic, tower enroute clearances, preferred routes, MEAs that made sense, vectors to final approach fix. Here, we manage to make life difficult for ourselves as usual!

[Chilli Monster]

Nothing to add what to what others have said, but I will re-iterate FFF's point. If you've not flown IFR in the U.K off airways (or even in airways, there are differences to the states) then you'll possibly be like a fish out of water. I would strongly advise you find someone experienced in this sort of flying to do this trip with you and learn from them how they go about it.

[WorkingHard]

Does this not illustrate the absolute idiocy of some of our rules? Why should the registration of the a/c make any difference to competence or safety? If you have an IR then it should be useable whatever the country of registration of the a/c. What happens when say an AA crew ferry a BA 747 to Heathrow? Are they to be prosecuted for not being licenced?

[FlyingForFun]

Couldn't agree more, WorkingHard. (To answer your question, the AA crew could not fly a BA 747 to Heathrow legally unless either they had JAR licenses with an IR and a 747 rating, or the BA aircraft was on the N-register for some reason.)

What I think is even more ridiculous, though, is this: Speedbird is experienced at flying airways, and, I assume, competent at doing so. Yet our authorities will quite happilly let him fly in our Class G, with no further training - something which I doubt he's spent more than a couple of minutes at a time doing in America, if he's done it at all - but won't let him do what he's familiar with, which is fly airways.

FFF
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[WorkingHard]

FFF - precicely, so what can the aviation world (in the UK that is) do about it? Surely we must have some way of getting the CAA to change the sheer stupidity of some of the rules. In the past such actions depended on a variety of different things but now with the internet and emails can someone (with far better knowledge than me) suggest a way of "pressurising" for change. At the very least we must get the CAA to give valid reasons for such stupidity.They are no longer in an ivory tower out of reach, remember that everyone.

[2Donkeys]

This is all very interesting and you may feel that the CAA is stupid.

On the other hand try and set that aside. On the basis of the questions being asked by Speedbird744 at the top of this thread, would you really want him operating IFR inside or outside controlled airspace in the UK until he has at least received some additional training.

You can argue about the costs, but not surely, the need.

This is not an attack on Speedbird744 by the way. It is good to ask the question ahead to trying to gain the experience. I am local to you BAW744 and would be happy to help. Give me a PM.

2D

[IO540]

The reason a pilot needs one license/rating/aircraft registration for a given type of use in one country, and another in another country but flying the same way in the same airspace, is solely the result of each country wishing to maintain its's own political oversight of aviation in its airspace.

Why an FAA PPL/IR can fly UK airways in an N-reg but not in a G-reg (one of many examples) cannot be connected with safety.

There is no need to look for charitable explanations - the whole world is run by politicians after all; some of us even vote for them every few years, and they are all over the news every day

The UK CAA is also self-financing; translating this into English, it means it makes money by selling bits of paper with "CAA" rubber stamps on them, and by charging out its inspectors by the hour.

The salaries, mortgages, pensions of tens of thousands of people around the world depend on the maintenance of these regulations, and turkeys will never vote for xmas.

Some might be suprised the original person who has an FAA IR doesn't know how to fly IFR in the UK, but a JAR IR won't know anything about the U.S. airspace system either.

[2Donkeys]

but a JAR IR won't know anything about the U.S. airspace system either.

Whilst the thrust of your argument is undoubtedly true, it is the UK and its airspace that is the odd man out.

Flying IFR in the US is not appreciably different to flying IFR in France, Germany, Iceland or anywhere else for that matter... except the UK.

By accommodating the IMC rating with it curious ability to permit flight outside the "airways" system (for want of a better description), we introduce a whole type of uncontrolled flight that is unparalleled almost anywhere else in the world.

This is neither bad nor good, but it does mean that an ICAO IR faces unique challenges trying to come to terms with our system, that he would not face in most other places.

Speedbird744 is a great case in point.

[DFC]

I'm with 2Donkeys on this one -

Well done to the person for recognising that they need some help and asking the important questions.

From the post, there makes little difference if the flight is on or off airways - this pilot has never operated IFR in Europe and thus needs some advice as to the requirements.

One could simply say that the AIP provides all the required information for a qualified pilot to use and indeed it does, but there is nothing better than an experienced instructor explaining the simple ways to operate which comply with the requriements.

As to the regulator and the regulations - The CAA allows N reg aircraft flown by pilots with FAA IRs to fly on airways because under international treaty it must. The FAA provides the same privilege to UK pilots flying G reg aircraft in return. If the CAA can show that on the whole, FAA IR holders are not fully capable to operate within the airway system then the CAA can take a case up with ICAO and the FAA - not with the individual pilot.

Personally, I feel that it is a mistake to automatically allow ICAO IR holders to automatically obtain an IMC since the IMC by definition places many ICAO IR holders in a situation for which they are not fully trained.

Perhaps this is another area where "differences training" could be deemed appropriate by the CAA.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

DFC

I feel that it is a mistake to automatically allow ICAO IR holders to automatically obtain an IMC since the IMC by definition places many ICAO IR holders in a situation for which they are not fully trained

Could you please explain why you think this is a problem?

I am not an IR and have never flown airways, but it seems to me that if you have passed the FAA IR test and fly airways, you are equally capable of IFR flight off airways. Flying IFR around the UK in Class G or D is really pretty simple.

[2Donkeys]

IO540

You would be better off addressing your question to Speedbird744. He is just such a case in point.


There is quite an art to flying IFR off airways and in and out of controlled airspace, in the way expected of an IMC-rating holder. The lack of positive control, and the need to negotiate transit clearances, RIS/RAS arrangements and so forth places quite a workload on one who is used to the relative ease of airways flying.

Not least, the workload of having to navigate your way around controlled airspace in IMC, having been declined a transit clearance can be surprisingly high.

[FlyingForFun]

2Donks beat me to it - Speedbird's first post illustrates perfectly why an ICAO IR does not prepare anyone for flying IFR in our Class G. The biggest giveaway is that he refers to the "Jepp Low Altitude Enroute chart". How many IMC-rated pilots have even seen one of these, I wonder? It's a completely different world to airways. Hardly Speedbird's fault - his training simply didn't prepare him for this.

It does make me wonder how foreign airline crews manage when they arrive at some of the UK's smaller airports. Exeter, for example, is a Class G airport, and I presume would require crews to negotiate a RAS for themselves as they leave the airways. And there are quite a few airports which are bigger than Exeter, possibly in Class D airspace, but with no controlled airspace joining their CTR/CTZ to the airways. I wonder if the crews are required to undergo any special training, or only allowed to visit these airports with another pilots who's been there before?

FFF
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[Chilli Monster]

It does make me wonder how foreign airline crews manage when they arrive at some of the UK's smaller airports.

Arriving's fine - departure's are where the problems normally occur.

You have to lead them by the hand and be very careful with clearance's and departure instructions. More often than not you give an airways joining clearance, which they think is also how they are expected to depart. Then, due to local traffic considerations you may have to give them an intermediate departure instruction (straight ahead 3000 to maintain for example). There have been a few occasions when they've got to the initial level given on the instruction and because the "to maintain" has been missed they've carried on to the airways joining point, climbing to the joining level.

That's when the job becomes interesting

[2Donkeys]

Exeter, for example, is a Class G airport, and I presume would require crews to negotiate a RAS for themselves as they leave the airways. And there are quite a few airports which are bigger than Exeter, possibly in Class D airspace, but with no controlled airspace joining their CTR/CTZ to the airways. I wonder if the crews are required to undergo any special training, or only allowed to visit these airports with another pilots who's been there before?

This is not as bad as it first seems, and once again, is not an unusual situation abroad either. Not every French airfield is connected to controlled airspace in the British sense.

When an "airways" IFR flight flies into Exeter, there comes a point where the airways controller will identify the flight to Exeter's approach radar controller and a handover will occur (same squawk). If descended outside controlled airspace, the flight will normally be offered a RAS (RIS minimum) and vectored in the ordinary way for an approach. The Terms RAS and RIS are British inventions so perhaps the only room for confusion is over the actual nature of the service being offered. Procedurally, there is nothing there that a foreign crew should not cope with.

Arriving at a field that lies outside controlled airspace and lacks a radar controller is also not too unfamiliar to foreign crews. The airways controller will typically finish by pointing the crew at the appropriate IAF and clearing them to leave controlled airspace by descent. Once within shouting distance of the target airfield, the crew will be handed to the Approach frequency at the airfield in question and put under a procedural "approach control service". Once again, this is the same procedure as is employed abroad, only the terminology is slightly different.


The issue occasionally comes when a crew is leaving a small field under IFR. This is particularly true if IFR departures are relatively rare. Often the only clearance the crew will receive is to "remain outside controlled airspace" and to contact London Information for an IFR clearance once airborne. This leaves the crew of the Gulfstream or Citation with the unenviable task of using Jepp airways charts to fly effectively VFR outside controlled airspace for the 5-10 minutes it can take to arrange an IFR joining clearance via London. Old hands will be familiar with ways that this process can be shortcut, but it still catches many crews out. In this respect, the UK is rather different from most other "developed" countries and offers a somewhat lower level of service.

2D

Phew! Glad we agreed with one another CM