WHEN will PPRUNE get a decent server?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tabbed browsers
A big fan of Opera (www.opera.com ), I'm currently stress testing Mozilla Firebird (www.mozilla.org/products/firebird/ ) and am very pleased with it so far. Just another suggestion 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Opera is nice but doesn't work with many websites e.g. most online banking / financials.
Despite what is said, many websites are being developed for IE6 only and, more to the point, are only ever tested with IE6. There are too many features in the HTML produced by today's tools (esp. that piece of very popular junk called Frontpage) which show up differently on different browsers.
Perhaps a real pro can develop the sort of fancy website which most marketing people want and make it browser independent but nowadays there are more website designers than there were tree surgeons after 1987
For most non-geeks, IE6 is a necessity.
Despite what is said, many websites are being developed for IE6 only and, more to the point, are only ever tested with IE6. There are too many features in the HTML produced by today's tools (esp. that piece of very popular junk called Frontpage) which show up differently on different browsers.
Perhaps a real pro can develop the sort of fancy website which most marketing people want and make it browser independent but nowadays there are more website designers than there were tree surgeons after 1987
For most non-geeks, IE6 is a necessity.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob / Rodents Bottom - many thanks for the suggestion of the Avant tabbed browser (I'd always thought of Avant / Mozilla / Opera as more Linux-orientated browser, I must confess).
I've installed Avant and am currently trialling it - we'll see how I get on!
I've installed Avant and am currently trialling it - we'll see how I get on!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Mike. I thought about moving it when it first appeared here. Reason I took the decision not to was there are a lot of IT bods who frequent this forum. Not all people who visit here go to other forums on the site, I imagine IT bods do go to the computer forum but other people who may be able to help don't. Also some regulars from here have contributed and may be interested but don't go to the other forum.
Seems like I got this decision right for once as both Danny and Rob have posted here and not moved/merged it themselves or sent me horses heads in the post for not doing my job properly.!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob also provided a link in the one on the computer forum yesterday I believe and the problem is allmost sorted out now.
For those regulars in the computer forum you know I got Opera a few months ago and have been usuing it since. Cannot reccommend it enough. Multi-tabbing is brilliant when on pprune, I can stick to reading all the new posts in here and have a look around the rest of the site at the same time. It really does help cut down on time. It is free but you can donate if you want. Go and have a look, its not bad at all.
Brl.
P.S. Personal title anyone..
Seems like I got this decision right for once as both Danny and Rob have posted here and not moved/merged it themselves or sent me horses heads in the post for not doing my job properly.!!!!!!!!!!!
Rob also provided a link in the one on the computer forum yesterday I believe and the problem is allmost sorted out now.
For those regulars in the computer forum you know I got Opera a few months ago and have been usuing it since. Cannot reccommend it enough. Multi-tabbing is brilliant when on pprune, I can stick to reading all the new posts in here and have a look around the rest of the site at the same time. It really does help cut down on time. It is free but you can donate if you want. Go and have a look, its not bad at all.
Brl.
P.S. Personal title anyone..
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For anybody that doesn't like Opera, try Mozilla Firebird - it does tabbed browsing and is pretty fast and light.
Mac users have even more choice. As well as Opera and Firebird, Safari 1.1 (included with OS X 10.3) does tabbed browsing very elegantly, is fast and highly standards-compliant.
The only problem with all this talk of tabbed browsing is that it isn't good for the server to have to supply you with several pages at once. I doubt enough people are using this facility to make it a problem. Watch out for some plug-ins though; they allow you to download every link on a page into individual tabs with a single click. Several people using these at once would be bad news for everyone.
Mac users have even more choice. As well as Opera and Firebird, Safari 1.1 (included with OS X 10.3) does tabbed browsing very elegantly, is fast and highly standards-compliant.
The only problem with all this talk of tabbed browsing is that it isn't good for the server to have to supply you with several pages at once. I doubt enough people are using this facility to make it a problem. Watch out for some plug-ins though; they allow you to download every link on a page into individual tabs with a single click. Several people using these at once would be bad news for everyone.
Uneasy Pleistocene Leftover
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gone, but not forgotten apparently?! All forums marked "Private"...
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My 2 cents worth:
If a lot of PPRuNers are indeed using "tab-capable" or other similarly automated browsers, then wouldn't that be intensifying the problems?
I'm not an IT pro, but if I understand the principle correctly, these auto-browsers would automatically download "adjacent" pages or links, which may in fact never be viewed. If 1 PPRuNer's auto-browser is downloading upto 30 pages at a time including the 1 currently being viewed, then surely that is the equivalent of having another 29 "virtual" users online. All of whom are consuming processor capacity and bandwidth.
I have an ADSL connection and to my knowledge, no ISPs charge on the basis of data volume, except for certain services requiring dedicated satellite resources such as Inmarsat. Conversely, a significant proportion of the costs of hosting a commercial website are based on the volume of data.
Perhaps there is a way to limit the number of concurrent connections from a single PPRuNer/IP address so as to limit abuse?
Also, the vBulletin / MySQL software used is very competitively priced...and whilst offering a plethora in the way of wonderful features, the question has to be posed. Would spending more on the software be more economical in terms of computing resources and bandwidth?
If a lot of PPRuNers are indeed using "tab-capable" or other similarly automated browsers, then wouldn't that be intensifying the problems?
I'm not an IT pro, but if I understand the principle correctly, these auto-browsers would automatically download "adjacent" pages or links, which may in fact never be viewed. If 1 PPRuNer's auto-browser is downloading upto 30 pages at a time including the 1 currently being viewed, then surely that is the equivalent of having another 29 "virtual" users online. All of whom are consuming processor capacity and bandwidth.
I have an ADSL connection and to my knowledge, no ISPs charge on the basis of data volume, except for certain services requiring dedicated satellite resources such as Inmarsat. Conversely, a significant proportion of the costs of hosting a commercial website are based on the volume of data.
Perhaps there is a way to limit the number of concurrent connections from a single PPRuNer/IP address so as to limit abuse?
Also, the vBulletin / MySQL software used is very competitively priced...and whilst offering a plethora in the way of wonderful features, the question has to be posed. Would spending more on the software be more economical in terms of computing resources and bandwidth?
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: UK
Posts: 7,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
airship/spekesoftly
As has been made clear the present server is a stiff and it will be replaced shortly. Our history is replete with these ocassions where performance is very poor due to demand.
To put it in perspective we started when 3% of homes in Europe were on line. Try to imagine a time when there was no Google, no Amazon, no such thing as the Dot com boom let alone the crash
Yahoo was a noise and Windows 95 was still late arriving.
Avoiding the middle of the European day has been standard advice throughout the years - a palliative. Using a tabbed browser is our long term policy advice for all of you, all of the time whatever the state of the server. It gives you the best chance of reading the site at a pace that suits you.
If you sniff around you'll find independent stats on us which show PPRuNers read far more pages than the vast majority of sites - 12 or 13 at one sitting. We're setting up a new sytem what will again cope with that. With a decent proportion of users switching to a tabbed browser the time accessing and placing demand on the server to get your fix should drop. That's the mythical average user of course.
In our experience people dont even open a fifth of the number of tabs suggested earlier in the thread. Most folks find the interface gets too crowded if they're run more than five or six tabs at once.
One final tip for those considering a switch to a tabbed browser. Firebird has been mentioned so if you are so wedded to Internet Explorer that change seems daunting there is help at hand.
Firebird is like Linux, open source code - anyone can write for it. If you go to the preferences section after loading it you'll find a section on 'themes.' A click there will take you to the Firebird site where you can select and load a completely new look to the browser. One of them will mimic exactly what your used to seeing with your present browser.
Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd
As has been made clear the present server is a stiff and it will be replaced shortly. Our history is replete with these ocassions where performance is very poor due to demand.
To put it in perspective we started when 3% of homes in Europe were on line. Try to imagine a time when there was no Google, no Amazon, no such thing as the Dot com boom let alone the crash
Yahoo was a noise and Windows 95 was still late arriving.Avoiding the middle of the European day has been standard advice throughout the years - a palliative. Using a tabbed browser is our long term policy advice for all of you, all of the time whatever the state of the server. It gives you the best chance of reading the site at a pace that suits you.
If you sniff around you'll find independent stats on us which show PPRuNers read far more pages than the vast majority of sites - 12 or 13 at one sitting. We're setting up a new sytem what will again cope with that. With a decent proportion of users switching to a tabbed browser the time accessing and placing demand on the server to get your fix should drop. That's the mythical average user of course.
In our experience people dont even open a fifth of the number of tabs suggested earlier in the thread. Most folks find the interface gets too crowded if they're run more than five or six tabs at once.
One final tip for those considering a switch to a tabbed browser. Firebird has been mentioned so if you are so wedded to Internet Explorer that change seems daunting there is help at hand.
Firebird is like Linux, open source code - anyone can write for it. If you go to the preferences section after loading it you'll find a section on 'themes.' A click there will take you to the Firebird site where you can select and load a completely new look to the browser. One of them will mimic exactly what your used to seeing with your present browser.
Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do this stuff for a living
Web and SQL database tuning
I find it's strange that it's the CPU that's burned .. I would have expected bandwidth the limiting factor
Anyway strange to find the thread here - never come in this door usually
back soon - write if you need a few bits of help
Web and SQL database tuning
I find it's strange that it's the CPU that's burned .. I would have expected bandwidth the limiting factor
Anyway strange to find the thread here - never come in this door usually
back soon - write if you need a few bits of help
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to dig out this old thread but I found this site
http://www.toyotaimportsforum.co.uk/forum
which looks like it uses what must have been the same off the shelf www forum software package as pprune. The difference is that it is about 5 times quicker to use. The backspace key also works instantly on it, just as it should.
http://www.toyotaimportsforum.co.uk/forum
which looks like it uses what must have been the same off the shelf www forum software package as pprune. The difference is that it is about 5 times quicker to use. The backspace key also works instantly on it, just as it should.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi there, thanks for the link. I don't really know what you are trying to say here Is it a suggestion to move/upgrade the software they use or something like that or is it showing us 'How it should be done' kind of thing..?
To put it in perspective again, if you look at their members, it lists just over 1200. We have almost 70.000 and rising every day.
Have a look AT THIS and think how many people we have to accomodate and it all takes up bandwidth. There is a server move very, very soon to help with the demand, but it has come at a cost, advertsing revenue is just not enough to cover it all and so Danny and Rob have to dig into their own pockets again. This is where you can help, simply buy a personal title. Many thanks to all who have done so recently, much appreciated.
Brl.
Is it a suggestion to move/upgrade the software they use or something like that or is it showing us 'How it should be done' kind of thing..?To put it in perspective again, if you look at their members, it lists just over 1200. We have almost 70.000 and rising every day.
Have a look AT THIS and think how many people we have to accomodate and it all takes up bandwidth. There is a server move very, very soon to help with the demand, but it has come at a cost, advertsing revenue is just not enough to cover it all and so Danny and Rob have to dig into their own pockets again. This is where you can help, simply buy a personal title. Many thanks to all who have done so recently, much appreciated.
Brl.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All I was trying to say is that their page appears to contain a LOT less HTML, for very nearly the same functionality. Each pprune page is around 200 kilobytes of data, most of which is not necessary.
It would not suprise me if having a careful look at how each pprune page is generated halved this, and that's worth a lot of server power and ISP bandwidth.
To be fair, most websites today use a huge amount of data, for what is actually displayed. When "the firm" is paying, one just throws a big server and lots of BW at it.
It would not suprise me if having a careful look at how each pprune page is generated halved this, and that's worth a lot of server power and ISP bandwidth.
To be fair, most websites today use a huge amount of data, for what is actually displayed. When "the firm" is paying, one just throws a big server and lots of BW at it.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540, not sure how you are measuring the size of the page, but the HTML on a typical PPRuNe page is about 60-80K. Before I posted on it, the last page of this thread is 57K. That is pretty similar to the Toyota site. So whilst I agree that the HTML behind a PPRuNe page could be tightened up, I don't think it is HTML byte count that is making the other site faster.
It probably isn't the low volume of users either, at least not right now (2:30am), though that would make a big difference when PPRuNe gets busy during the day. My guess is that the connectivity of their server is better than the current PPRuNe one, but we can't know for sure.
Unless the previous page was the result of a form submission then the backspace key in my browser works (to take you back a page) instantly on PPRuNe too.
It probably isn't the low volume of users either, at least not right now (2:30am), though that would make a big difference when PPRuNe gets busy during the day. My guess is that the connectivity of their server is better than the current PPRuNe one, but we can't know for sure.
Unless the previous page was the result of a form submission then the backspace key in my browser works (to take you back a page) instantly on PPRuNe too.
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: UK
Posts: 7,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backspace for instant flyback works fine in Internet Explorer and Safari but not Firebird by Mozilla. Then again, I'm not up to date on their latest build number.
Nevertheless - worthwhile point raised as the backspace is such a useful 'gesture' to speed up most peoples' ppruning.
Migration to the new server begins on the 10th March when we get our e-mail sorted out. We will be taking it easy to ensure the best performance possible from the outset. Therefore migration of the entire site will take a while but should pay dividends for the future.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Nevertheless - worthwhile point raised as the backspace is such a useful 'gesture' to speed up most peoples' ppruning.
Migration to the new server begins on the 10th March when we get our e-mail sorted out. We will be taking it easy to ensure the best performance possible from the outset. Therefore migration of the entire site will take a while but should pay dividends for the future.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob,
I still hold, quite strongly, the view that the requirement to log on every 24 hours is unnecessarily annoying to us regular users, and a sledgehammer to crack a nut with respect to the reasons given for imposing it.
Unless there is a hidden agenda/reason (and if there is, eMail me and I will shut up), pleeaase can we find a different way to reduce the forgotten password problem?
How about a rota of volunteers to handle password problems? I would volunteer on a "one in four" basis.
Timothy
I still hold, quite strongly, the view that the requirement to log on every 24 hours is unnecessarily annoying to us regular users, and a sledgehammer to crack a nut with respect to the reasons given for imposing it.
Unless there is a hidden agenda/reason (and if there is, eMail me and I will shut up), pleeaase can we find a different way to reduce the forgotten password problem?
How about a rota of volunteers to handle password problems? I would volunteer on a "one in four" basis.
Timothy
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: UK
Posts: 7,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Timothy,
Only 3 of us have the keys to under the old girl's stays and I'm the only one there everyday so I'm afraid the rota idea is a non starter.
Won't make sense to the majority on this forum but to those PPruNe was created for it's vital. The pro aviators and ATCer's all have contractual and Ops manual sections forbidding public discussion of their professional life. I know you've done this aviation lark for a living but the PPL's must understand how important anonymity is for the health of the site.
As to the log on it stays because of the time saving it provides for me - mail is down by a half.
Regards
Rob
Only 3 of us have the keys to under the old girl's stays and I'm the only one there everyday so I'm afraid the rota idea is a non starter.
Won't make sense to the majority on this forum but to those PPruNe was created for it's vital. The pro aviators and ATCer's all have contractual and Ops manual sections forbidding public discussion of their professional life. I know you've done this aviation lark for a living but the PPL's must understand how important anonymity is for the health of the site.
As to the log on it stays because of the time saving it provides for me - mail is down by a half.
Regards
Rob
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob,
I think you misread me. I said nothing about anonymity. I totally understand (having been pro until recently) why it is necessary.
I was only talking about the login issue, and was offering to help with that very eMail load.
Timothy
I think you misread me. I said nothing about anonymity. I totally understand (having been pro until recently) why it is necessary.
I was only talking about the login issue, and was offering to help with that very eMail load.
Timothy