aerobatics
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aerobatics
im currently looking to start all my PPL training shortly
Ive done the usual flights through ATC, done aerobatics a fair few times, and ive never felt so good after flying, aerobatics was a definately a must in flying for me.
What i want to know is, for a PPL holder at a minimum of 45hrs, doing aerobatics must be a dangerous thing without much flying experiance, i understand there will be aerobatic courses out there, can anyone relate to such a course and give me any feedback on them?
My other thing is, PPL holders, C152, C172, Pipers etc, are these planes very capable of doing much aerobatics? (sorry for being blunt, i dont know much on them as of yet) i done aerobatics in a Bulldog, and a Tutor.
Happy flying chaps, can't wait till im in the same club
Ive done the usual flights through ATC, done aerobatics a fair few times, and ive never felt so good after flying, aerobatics was a definately a must in flying for me.
What i want to know is, for a PPL holder at a minimum of 45hrs, doing aerobatics must be a dangerous thing without much flying experiance, i understand there will be aerobatic courses out there, can anyone relate to such a course and give me any feedback on them?
My other thing is, PPL holders, C152, C172, Pipers etc, are these planes very capable of doing much aerobatics? (sorry for being blunt, i dont know much on them as of yet) i done aerobatics in a Bulldog, and a Tutor.
Happy flying chaps, can't wait till im in the same club
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First, best of luck in your PPL course and I hope that you enjoy it. As you probably know, there is no formal aerobatics rating, but you can do the AOPA certificate, details of which are quite easy to find on the web. It takes about 10 hours and involves advanced steep turns, recoveries from vertical and other extreme attitudes, stall and spin training, and then the basic rolling and looping and stall turn manoeuvres.
There is no reason why you cannot include some aerobatic training in your PPL, if you have the time and inclination to do so. If your instructor likes aeros, and you are in the right machine, you might find yourself rewarded for a good lesson or cheered up after a bad one with a bit of gentle hooting and roaring.
It goes without saying that you shouldn't attempt any aerobatic manoeuvre on your own unless you have been taught it and cleared to perform it by a specialist aerobatic instructor and are flying an aircraft built and certified for aerobatics, operating within that aircraft's particular stress limits. This rules out most of the commonly available GA trainer-tourers: none of the PA 28s are aerobatic and, of the Cessnas, only the comparatively rare C150 Aerobat is, dohhh, aerobatic.
If you have not yet chosen your PPL school, you could look out for one of the few that has available for training and rental aircraft such as Slingsby Firefly, Beagle Pup, Bulldog, some variants of Robin, and Cessna aerobats. There may be one or two lurking somewhere that will teach ab initio on Citabrias or Decathlons, which would kill two birds with one stone by sorting out your tailwheel training at the same time, bearing in mind that if you continue your interest in aeros after you obtain your licence, most aerobatic machines are tailwheelers . Sherburn in Elmet even has a Cap 10b, a most excellent machine (not biased at all) for a surprisingly cheap rate, but that's in Yorkshire and I'm not sure what's available at the Scottish clubs. All of these aircraft tend to be more expensive to fly than the usual non-aerobatic trainers, although you may think the extra expense worthwhile, particularly as you may may find the usual flying club aircraft a tad pedestrian after flipping about in Bulldogs and Tutors. Once again, best of luck and have fun.
There is no reason why you cannot include some aerobatic training in your PPL, if you have the time and inclination to do so. If your instructor likes aeros, and you are in the right machine, you might find yourself rewarded for a good lesson or cheered up after a bad one with a bit of gentle hooting and roaring.
It goes without saying that you shouldn't attempt any aerobatic manoeuvre on your own unless you have been taught it and cleared to perform it by a specialist aerobatic instructor and are flying an aircraft built and certified for aerobatics, operating within that aircraft's particular stress limits. This rules out most of the commonly available GA trainer-tourers: none of the PA 28s are aerobatic and, of the Cessnas, only the comparatively rare C150 Aerobat is, dohhh, aerobatic.
If you have not yet chosen your PPL school, you could look out for one of the few that has available for training and rental aircraft such as Slingsby Firefly, Beagle Pup, Bulldog, some variants of Robin, and Cessna aerobats. There may be one or two lurking somewhere that will teach ab initio on Citabrias or Decathlons, which would kill two birds with one stone by sorting out your tailwheel training at the same time, bearing in mind that if you continue your interest in aeros after you obtain your licence, most aerobatic machines are tailwheelers . Sherburn in Elmet even has a Cap 10b, a most excellent machine (not biased at all) for a surprisingly cheap rate, but that's in Yorkshire and I'm not sure what's available at the Scottish clubs. All of these aircraft tend to be more expensive to fly than the usual non-aerobatic trainers, although you may think the extra expense worthwhile, particularly as you may may find the usual flying club aircraft a tad pedestrian after flipping about in Bulldogs and Tutors. Once again, best of luck and have fun.
Last edited by FNG; 18th Dec 2003 at 22:50.
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What i want to know is, for a PPL holder at a minimum of 45hrs, doing aerobatics must be a dangerous thing without much flying experiance, i understand there will be aerobatic courses out there, can anyone relate to such a course and give me any feedback on them?
There are a lot of aeros courses around, most based around the AOPA aeros syllabus. This is typically around 5-10 hours covering the basic aerobatic manoeuvers, after which it is time for solo practice to get from "safe" to "safe and accurate".
My other thing is, PPL holders, C152, C172, Pipers etc, are these planes very capable of doing much aerobatics? (sorry for being blunt, i dont know much on them as of yet) i done aerobatics in a Bulldog, and a Tutor.
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thanks for the info guys,
I was looking at RiverSide flight centre for my PPL training, as i aint made of money, they offer good accomodation rates and a very good rate of PPL flying at £2180 for PPL course.
If anyone can recommend a school that will fit my apetite for aeros too at a good cost im willing to look at my options, as this would be the best time to review the flight school of my choice :-)
I was looking at RiverSide flight centre for my PPL training, as i aint made of money, they offer good accomodation rates and a very good rate of PPL flying at £2180 for PPL course.
If anyone can recommend a school that will fit my apetite for aeros too at a good cost im willing to look at my options, as this would be the best time to review the flight school of my choice :-)
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What i want to know is, for a PPL holder at a minimum of 45hrs, doing aerobatics must be a dangerous thing without much flying experiance,
Not so N, but still FG
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I haven't heard of Riverside, are they Scottish or, as the price suggests, in the US? I would expect schools which offer the cheaply priced packages to offer the basic no-frills PPL on the basic no-frills PPL aircraft, most likely using hour builder instructors who are not usually aerobatic specialists and may have no interest in or experience of aeros. This is not meant to be a dig at those schools or their instructors (if you haven't yet done so, you could search this forum for the endless debates about package vs pay as you go, UK v US etc), just an observation about the product which they are selling. If, by coincidence, the school you choose happens to have an aeros nut on the staff and a suitably upside downy aeroplane, then you're in luck. Otherwise, you might have to wait until you 've obtained the PPL and then seek out a suitable instructor and aircraft.
PS: on a separate note, check very carefully what is and isn't included in the package price. Read the small print before you sign up.
PS: on a separate note, check very carefully what is and isn't included in the package price. Read the small print before you sign up.
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Hi FNG,
Its a US based flight school, thats why its cheap.
www.riversideflightcenter.com
I only make 12k a year so thats why i have to look out a package thats cost efficent, as i too have to pay outrageous tax fees, insurance and petrol on my car which doesn't leave me much to spare, im trying to save about 500 a month towards my PPL.
Its a US based flight school, thats why its cheap.
www.riversideflightcenter.com
I only make 12k a year so thats why i have to look out a package thats cost efficent, as i too have to pay outrageous tax fees, insurance and petrol on my car which doesn't leave me much to spare, im trying to save about 500 a month towards my PPL.
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I was looking at RiverSide flight centre for my PPL training, as i aint made of money
(edit: ah, in the time taken to type that FNG posted and you answered my first question. I think the rest still applies though)
As an aside, if money is tight then I strongly recommend investigating the PFA - once you have a PPL you can fly interesting aeroplanes remarkably cheaply, even in this country.
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I'm currently doing aerobatics as part of RAF Elementary Flight Training and it easily the best aspect of flying i have come across yet. I find i am much more accurate, co-ordinated and confident after just 5 hours of aerobatics tution
To back up Foxmoth's point i'm quite inexperianced, currently having 32 hours total time on the Tutor but i am cleared to do solo aerobatics.
Before we are cleared solo we are trained in spinning (entry and recovery) incipiant spinning, recovery from unusual positions then finally the aerobatics themselves.
Prior to being cleared solo we must demonstrate the above to a minimum of a safe standard. Then off you go!!!!
I would imagine any intro to aerobatics would cover the same areas so make sure you know how to do the above safely before you do aeros even if you have a PPL. (assuming these aren't covered in the PPL itself)
Enjoy the flying!!!
To back up Foxmoth's point i'm quite inexperianced, currently having 32 hours total time on the Tutor but i am cleared to do solo aerobatics.
Before we are cleared solo we are trained in spinning (entry and recovery) incipiant spinning, recovery from unusual positions then finally the aerobatics themselves.
Prior to being cleared solo we must demonstrate the above to a minimum of a safe standard. Then off you go!!!!
I would imagine any intro to aerobatics would cover the same areas so make sure you know how to do the above safely before you do aeros even if you have a PPL. (assuming these aren't covered in the PPL itself)
Enjoy the flying!!!
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YEEHAAA!
Aeros - I have done a bit with the ATC as well and off course became aeros mad (straight and level was just not intersting enough!)
During my PPL course...i had to kill a fair few hours as i completed the syllabus quite quickly due to a lot of prior training yadda yadda yah... so went up with my instructor and did AEROS!
I have also been up in an Extra 300 a few times which really taught me about aeros - although you have to realise that when you hop back in your normal a/c its roll rate and response isn't quite the same; but it was still a fantastic experience.
A lot of clubs also have an aeros policy - i.e. you have to be checked out by a suitable instructor and do solo aeros (scare yourself!) before you do aeros + PAX.
Anyone doing aeros is dangerous - anything can go wrong and i guess thats the thrill factor in flying.
Having a PPL is a bit like driving - you've got the license, now the learning really begins
Have fun!
During my PPL course...i had to kill a fair few hours as i completed the syllabus quite quickly due to a lot of prior training yadda yadda yah... so went up with my instructor and did AEROS!
I have also been up in an Extra 300 a few times which really taught me about aeros - although you have to realise that when you hop back in your normal a/c its roll rate and response isn't quite the same; but it was still a fantastic experience.
A lot of clubs also have an aeros policy - i.e. you have to be checked out by a suitable instructor and do solo aeros (scare yourself!) before you do aeros + PAX.
Anyone doing aeros is dangerous - anything can go wrong and i guess thats the thrill factor in flying.
Having a PPL is a bit like driving - you've got the license, now the learning really begins
Have fun!
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From the website, it looks as though they only do the FAA PPL which is 40 hours flying, not 45. There is nothing wrong with that- its a good course and you will learn just as much as the JAA one. However, you will be limited to daytime VFR flight in the UK unless you convert. The exam fees and accomodation are extra too - make sure you take that into account when comparing schools.
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Errr, ACW, sure you didn't mean it that way, but that could give non pilots or hardcore straight and level puritans the idea that all aeros fiends are dangerous nutters who should be banned, when in reality most us love cocoa and knitting, are kind to small animals, love our mums and so forth. Of course there are risks in aerobatting, as in all flying, and of course flying aerobatics is exciting, but the whole point of getting some training is to do it safely and not freak yourself out in the progress. Doubtless that's what you meant and no need for me to get all po faced.
PS: agree with Evo's comments re the problems of doing lots of aeros on a budget (mostly expensive kit, burning lots of fuel, and maybe add a few hundred quid in for a parachute). Agree also re the PFA: I've heard that one economical aerobatic PFA type to look out for is the Tipsy Nipper.
PS: agree with Evo's comments re the problems of doing lots of aeros on a budget (mostly expensive kit, burning lots of fuel, and maybe add a few hundred quid in for a parachute). Agree also re the PFA: I've heard that one economical aerobatic PFA type to look out for is the Tipsy Nipper.
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Whats all involved in converting the license to JAA?
Im just basicially looking for a good flight school to get me my license, then after that i can spend 200 to 300 quid a month on flying, obviously saving a few here and there during winter season......
i want to do an aerobatics course cause i enjoyed it so much, i dont want to make a hobby of it until i can really afford it, but i just really want to do it so i know i can do it :-)
It would be good to try your tricks on a nice summers day, although once more experianced i doubt none of my family or friends would like a pax ride, and im doubtful "want to come on an aerobatics flight?" is a good chat up line on the usual friday night pull Im a bit of a adrenaline junky, i enjoy things such as Aerobatics....although i have offloaded my stomach once, but that was due to the air training corps officer telling me on my first flight i wouldn't do Aeros and my flight wasn't until the afternoon, but infact i was called in the morning, so after i had a nice breakfast (pepsi, chicken sandwiches and a lovely bubbly aero) i did see this breakfast twice! hehe.
I also experianced slight blackness in my eyes but i would presume because i wasn't tensing or expecting such a force.
Im just basicially looking for a good flight school to get me my license, then after that i can spend 200 to 300 quid a month on flying, obviously saving a few here and there during winter season......
i want to do an aerobatics course cause i enjoyed it so much, i dont want to make a hobby of it until i can really afford it, but i just really want to do it so i know i can do it :-)
It would be good to try your tricks on a nice summers day, although once more experianced i doubt none of my family or friends would like a pax ride, and im doubtful "want to come on an aerobatics flight?" is a good chat up line on the usual friday night pull
Im a bit of a adrenaline junky, i enjoy things such as Aerobatics....although i have offloaded my stomach once, but that was due to the air training corps officer telling me on my first flight i wouldn't do Aeros and my flight wasn't until the afternoon, but infact i was called in the morning, so after i had a nice breakfast (pepsi, chicken sandwiches and a lovely bubbly aero) i did see this breakfast twice! hehe.I also experianced slight blackness in my eyes but i would presume because i wasn't tensing or expecting such a force.
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FNG you may have misunderstood me cos you make me sound like i think aeros shud be banned LOL
dangerous is the wrong word to use but didnt have another one to mind......!!
I know what you are getting at - but i would say aeros ar just as dangerous as driving, especially more for inexperienced pilots who could get disorientated or find another a/c appears out of no where while you are upside down.
And yeah i did mean what you say im just not the best at expressing myself in words HEHE so thaks for clarifying that!
Im a very pro aeros person and was shocked to find that experiencing a full spin is no longer a requirement in the PPL syllabus but all you need to see is the incipient and so many instructors don't show a spin anymore to studes.
*Apologies for any misunderstanding I may cause!*
dangerous is the wrong word to use but didnt have another one to mind......!!
I know what you are getting at - but i would say aeros ar just as dangerous as driving, especially more for inexperienced pilots who could get disorientated or find another a/c appears out of no where while you are upside down.
And yeah i did mean what you say im just not the best at expressing myself in words HEHE so thaks for clarifying that!
Im a very pro aeros person and was shocked to find that experiencing a full spin is no longer a requirement in the PPL syllabus but all you need to see is the incipient and so many instructors don't show a spin anymore to studes.
*Apologies for any misunderstanding I may cause!*
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I would say that aerobatics has the potential to be a dangerous thing however if you find yourself a good instructor then aero's can only make you safer in my opinion.
Having experience of operating your aircraft in all areas of the envelope including unusual attitudes and the like will improve your handling skills no end. You also tend to loose the fear that some PPL's have of stalls/spins. Not to say that you become ignorant to the dangers but that you become more aware and less scared.
You also begin to truly think and control the aircraft in all three dimensions. Once you have rolled, looped and spun you and your airframe through the skies you will wonder why you didn't do it sooner!
I don't have any experience of the AOPA Aero's course but I hear it is quite good.
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Having experience of operating your aircraft in all areas of the envelope including unusual attitudes and the like will improve your handling skills no end. You also tend to loose the fear that some PPL's have of stalls/spins. Not to say that you become ignorant to the dangers but that you become more aware and less scared.
You also begin to truly think and control the aircraft in all three dimensions. Once you have rolled, looped and spun you and your airframe through the skies you will wonder why you didn't do it sooner!
I don't have any experience of the AOPA Aero's course but I hear it is quite good.
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You are starting your PPL and we all absorb knowledge at a different rate so any comment by definition is a generalisation, however I am not convinced for the "average" pilot you are ready to start aeros at the end of your PPL or even during your PPL. Why? Well the PPL for most is fairly challenging and you are unlikely to end it being fully comfortable and confident with the aircraft throughout its flight envelope. If you are not comfortable (and a good aerobatic instructor will tell you pretty quickly if he is honest) gain a few more hours ( maybe somewhere around 100 in total) and then start aeros seriously. If you are the "average" pilot you will find you progress far more quickly and your money is better spent. Again, I am refering to the "average" pilot. Of course the younger you are inevitably the quicker you may learn and of course some take to flying so much more readily than others!
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Aero's
It's Christmas after all, go ahead, treat your self, why not try a half hour in a Yak 52. Fantastic humbling experience the first time you do it. Get a good instructor and you will enjoy it even more, the more you learn on the ground the better the flight will be, but be warned , it's very addictive.
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Fuji,
sorry to disagree with your post, but I think just after or even during the PPL is an ideal time to start aeros if you can. You may not pick up the manouvers as quickly as you would after more experience, but a few hours learning aeros will do FAR more for your aircraft handling skills than a hundred hours of other flying
sorry to disagree with your post, but I think just after or even during the PPL is an ideal time to start aeros if you can. You may not pick up the manouvers as quickly as you would after more experience, but a few hours learning aeros will do FAR more for your aircraft handling skills than a hundred hours of other flying
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however I am not convinced for the "average" pilot you are ready to start aeros at the end of your PPL or even during your PPL. Why? Well the PPL for most is fairly challenging and you are unlikely to end it being fully comfortable and confident with the aircraft throughout its flight envelope.
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thanks for the replies guys!
As i said, im still in my saving spree for my PPL, so if anyone can recommend a nice place (most likely america) to do the PPL then id be happy to take it into consideration :-)
I would do it over here in the UK, but it would cost me a left kidney!
Aeros do look very tasteful! and i can't wait until i get started in my flying! With the job im in just now, i can't think of anything more relaxing than a good flight :-)
As i said, im still in my saving spree for my PPL, so if anyone can recommend a nice place (most likely america) to do the PPL then id be happy to take it into consideration :-)
I would do it over here in the UK, but it would cost me a left kidney!
Aeros do look very tasteful! and i can't wait until i get started in my flying! With the job im in just now, i can't think of anything more relaxing than a good flight :-)
