Passengers handling the controls
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Passengers handling the controls
I'm not talking about airliners here, I'm talking about GA.
Does anybody know (for UK / JAA) what the precise rules (if any) are concerning passengers handling the controls in a light aircraft (flying with a non-instructor), and where to find them?
I think I know what the rules are at present, but struggle to prove my point !
Thanks,
G
Does anybody know (for UK / JAA) what the precise rules (if any) are concerning passengers handling the controls in a light aircraft (flying with a non-instructor), and where to find them?
I think I know what the rules are at present, but struggle to prove my point !
Thanks,
G
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Purr: very constructive response there: if you don't know anything about the subject then don't respond - it is in fact perfectly legal.
Ghengis, I believe BEagle posted a reference to the exact wording a while back, but if you cannot find it on search, he would be the man to ask.
Ghengis, I believe BEagle posted a reference to the exact wording a while back, but if you cannot find it on search, he would be the man to ask.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If Lucifer is correct, then I'll wait for BEagle to post and prove me wrong. But when I've tried to find something similar myself, I've always come up with a complete blank. And I've taken the fact that nothing tells me that it's illegal to mean that it's legal.
(Purr - it is very common for pilots to hand the controls to their passengers, if the passengers are interested. My own rules for doing so are that I want to see the passenger comfortable with the sensations associated with flying, I want to be away from controlled and busy airspace, I want to be a safe distance from the ground, cloud, and anything that could even broadly be described as "weather", and I want to be totally confident about my current position. Only then will I say "do you fancy having a go?" And I never mention this to a passenger beforehand - there are so many reasons that it might not happen that if I mention it before the flight the passenger may well be disappointed if I decide not to let it happen.)
FFF
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(Purr - it is very common for pilots to hand the controls to their passengers, if the passengers are interested. My own rules for doing so are that I want to see the passenger comfortable with the sensations associated with flying, I want to be away from controlled and busy airspace, I want to be a safe distance from the ground, cloud, and anything that could even broadly be described as "weather", and I want to be totally confident about my current position. Only then will I say "do you fancy having a go?" And I never mention this to a passenger beforehand - there are so many reasons that it might not happen that if I mention it before the flight the passenger may well be disappointed if I decide not to let it happen.)
FFF
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I'm afraid that strictly speaking an non-FI CANNOT let someone else have a go on the controls.
It's in here somewhere but I haven't got time to trawl through for the exact bit at the moment.
It's counted as an instructional flight if a non licenced person uses the controls, if you haven't got an FI rating then you cannot instruct.
It's in here somewhere but I haven't got time to trawl through for the exact bit at the moment.
It's counted as an instructional flight if a non licenced person uses the controls, if you haven't got an FI rating then you cannot instruct.
I agree with FFF. I've never seen anything in the ANO that would prohibit a non-crewmember handling the controls under the supervision of a crewmember.
Maybe when SAS has a little more time he'll be able to find the words in the 74 page document quoted that will enlighten us...
Maybe when SAS has a little more time he'll be able to find the words in the 74 page document quoted that will enlighten us...
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2 (a) He shall not fly such an aeroplane for the
purpose of public transport or aerial work
save as hereinafter provided:
(aa) the giving of instruction in flying, if
his licence includes a flying
instructor's rating, class rating
instructor rating, flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying
instructor's rating;
That isn't the best example, but I can't find the phrase I'm lookng for. This all came up in a thread in the Private flying section a while ago.
The definition of instruction is having an unqualified pilot using the controls under the supervision of a qualified pilot. If you don't have an FI rating, then you can't teach.
purpose of public transport or aerial work
save as hereinafter provided:
(aa) the giving of instruction in flying, if
his licence includes a flying
instructor's rating, class rating
instructor rating, flight instructor
rating or an assistant flying
instructor's rating;
That isn't the best example, but I can't find the phrase I'm lookng for. This all came up in a thread in the Private flying section a while ago.
The definition of instruction is having an unqualified pilot using the controls under the supervision of a qualified pilot. If you don't have an FI rating, then you can't teach.
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I'll try and have a look for it, but it is unrelated to the licence that is held by the pilot, as it is not instruction. Rather what we should be looking for is the passenger in the other seat handling the controls under supervision.
I have had a look through the LASORS, but cannot find what I am looking for.
I have had a look through the LASORS, but cannot find what I am looking for.
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I'll e-mail the Belgrano about this, it may take a while for an answer, but as it isn't clear in LASORS a bit of clarification would be nice. I'm pretty certain I'm correct in this, but nothing like hearing it from the horses mouth.
Genghis, with all your CAA contacts could you get an answer any quicker than the rest of us?
Genghis, with all your CAA contacts could you get an answer any quicker than the rest of us?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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SAS,
The part that you quoted is not at all relevant, I'm afraid. The section in question relates to the privileges of a PPL(A). Paragraph 1 gives a PPL(A) holder the right to fly an aircraft for which he holds the appropriate type- or class-rating. Paragraph 2, the one which you've quoted, then states that this right does not apply to Public Transport or Aerial Work (other than instructing, which counts as aerial work for the purpose of some rules, but not for this one).
If I let my passenger take the controls, this is not a public transport flight. It is also not an aerial flight. (As you rightly point out, it can't be an instructional flight if I don't hold an instructor rating.) Therefore, the flight is not disallowed by this rule.
FFF
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The part that you quoted is not at all relevant, I'm afraid. The section in question relates to the privileges of a PPL(A). Paragraph 1 gives a PPL(A) holder the right to fly an aircraft for which he holds the appropriate type- or class-rating. Paragraph 2, the one which you've quoted, then states that this right does not apply to Public Transport or Aerial Work (other than instructing, which counts as aerial work for the purpose of some rules, but not for this one).
If I let my passenger take the controls, this is not a public transport flight. It is also not an aerial flight. (As you rightly point out, it can't be an instructional flight if I don't hold an instructor rating.) Therefore, the flight is not disallowed by this rule.
FFF
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FFF, you are correct and I'm getting a bit peeved that I can't find the relevant law on this.
I've emailed the CAA and hopefully should get a clarification by 2006. Until then I'll have another look and see what I can find, if anything!
I've emailed the CAA and hopefully should get a clarification by 2006. Until then I'll have another look and see what I can find, if anything!
The structure of the flight crew licensing law in the ANO looks like this:
Art 20 requires an aircraft to have a flight crew numbering at least the minimum required by its C of A.
Art 21(1) requires the members of the flight crew to be licensed, except in certain circumstances decribed in (2).
Art 22 gives the CAA the power to issue (and renew etc.) UK/JAA licences in accordance with Schedule 8 which set out the privileges.
None of it refers to who may operate the controls. If you were to take the interpretation that operating the controls would make you a member of the flight crew, then you could only do so with an appropriate licence. But Art 130 defines flight crew as:
which lends this interpretation little support.
Art 41(1) may also be relevant, as it requires one pilot to remain "at the controls" throughout the flight. However 41(3) clearly implies that a PNF is considered to be "at the controls".
Art 20 requires an aircraft to have a flight crew numbering at least the minimum required by its C of A.
Art 21(1) requires the members of the flight crew to be licensed, except in certain circumstances decribed in (2).
Art 22 gives the CAA the power to issue (and renew etc.) UK/JAA licences in accordance with Schedule 8 which set out the privileges.
None of it refers to who may operate the controls. If you were to take the interpretation that operating the controls would make you a member of the flight crew, then you could only do so with an appropriate licence. But Art 130 defines flight crew as:
‘Flight crew’ in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radiotelephony operator of the aircraft;
Art 41(1) may also be relevant, as it requires one pilot to remain "at the controls" throughout the flight. However 41(3) clearly implies that a PNF is considered to be "at the controls".
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Genghis, with all your CAA contacts could you get an answer any quicker than the rest of us?
Also sometimes it's best not to ask a question too directly of CAA, because if you get the wrong answer it can be very difficult to get them to change their minds.
G
The answer I supplied related to a non-PPL holder who had asked how he could log flight time during which he'd handled the controls with a PPL holding non-FI in the other seat. My answer was "As a passenger". My private thoughts were "and probably as an illegal one at that!"..........
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I don't understand the problem.
If my Grandmother is sitting in the other seat of a light airplane and wants to feel what the controls do, what is the problem?
And who is going to give a damn if she does?
Sometimes the discussions seem to get rather strange here.
If my Grandmother is sitting in the other seat of a light airplane and wants to feel what the controls do, what is the problem?
And who is going to give a damn if she does?
Sometimes the discussions seem to get rather strange here.
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Chuck, Its the stuffy Bitish respect for rules and regulations, you have seen how we like to stand in queues!
You know how a PPL could not possibly let mum or dad have a go at straight and level becuase he is incapable of seing if a mistake is going to be made unless he has:
a) done the ATPL exams
B) the FI rating
c) sat in the right seat of a 152 for 3000hrs while waiting for the jet job
and of course don't forget being a "frozen" airline pilot!
The brits do like to collect "badges"!!!!
You know how a PPL could not possibly let mum or dad have a go at straight and level becuase he is incapable of seing if a mistake is going to be made unless he has:
a) done the ATPL exams
B) the FI rating
c) sat in the right seat of a 152 for 3000hrs while waiting for the jet job
and of course don't forget being a "frozen" airline pilot!
The brits do like to collect "badges"!!!!
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I'm with Chuck and FFF on this - the pilot has all the responsibility for the flight, if anything goes wrong the blame falls squarely on his/her shoulders.
I had my first go when I was a kid and those early memories are still with me today.
Only today I was flying with a friend in the Cub, he was having great fun poling us around for a while. It certainly puts nervous pax minds at rest when they realize that the darned thing is stable and not about to drop out the air.
Another favorite of mine is to get her trimmed up nicely, fly hands and feet off, then either climb or descend by both of you either leaning forward or back in the seats...
Kingy
I had my first go when I was a kid and those early memories are still with me today.
Only today I was flying with a friend in the Cub, he was having great fun poling us around for a while. It certainly puts nervous pax minds at rest when they realize that the darned thing is stable and not about to drop out the air.
Another favorite of mine is to get her trimmed up nicely, fly hands and feet off, then either climb or descend by both of you either leaning forward or back in the seats...
Kingy
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Chuck, Its the stuffy Bitish respect for rules and regulations, you have seen how we like to stand in queues!
"Of course we aren't breaching any low flying rules, we're going to land ... somewhere, eventually."
"Two thousand feet? What's that? We'd get nosebleed if we ever went that high."
"There aren't any rules here, we just do what we like."
"Oh, on a day like this we only fly routes we know, we wouldn't go anywhere we didn't know the way to." [Viz being a few hundred metres, if that, in some directions only, through the thinner patches in the fog. They were flying, too, I saw them, but refused to go with them.]
and so on and so on and so on.
Actually they do have one rule there - when flying through a narrow gap between two mountains I asked whether there was any convention as to which side of the valley one flew on (being used to East Anglia), and it turned out there was.
Sigh. Much more fun than round here.
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Article 20 requires the aircraft not to fly unless it has the required crew on board.
Article 41 requires one pilot to remain at the controls at all times.
Article 29 prohibits the giving of instruction in flying by someone without the correct ratings but then says:-
"(2) This article applies to instruction in flying given to any person flying or about to fly a
flying machine or glider for the purpose of becoming qualified for:
(a) the grant of a pilot’s licence; and
(b) the inclusion or variation of any rating in his licence."
Therefore it appears you can teach your granny to fly so long as that instruction is not for one of the purposes above, you remain at the controls, and you are qualified to fly the thing.
Simple really
Mike
Article 41 requires one pilot to remain at the controls at all times.
Article 29 prohibits the giving of instruction in flying by someone without the correct ratings but then says:-
"(2) This article applies to instruction in flying given to any person flying or about to fly a
flying machine or glider for the purpose of becoming qualified for:
(a) the grant of a pilot’s licence; and
(b) the inclusion or variation of any rating in his licence."
Therefore it appears you can teach your granny to fly so long as that instruction is not for one of the purposes above, you remain at the controls, and you are qualified to fly the thing.
Simple really
Mike
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Chuck, I'll definately agree about it not being a problem letting someone have a go whilst you are in flight, but I have benn asked the question on a number of occasions and I'm struggling to find in our myriad of over complex rules whether it is actually allowed or not.
It looks like Mike has answered it, but I'm still not totally convinced about it being within the 'rules' as such. Mind you it's a pretty unenforceable one if it is disallowed!!
It looks like Mike has answered it, but I'm still not totally convinced about it being within the 'rules' as such. Mind you it's a pretty unenforceable one if it is disallowed!!